Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Wait, doesn't the stock plane cruise at something like 100-ish mph, running full tilt? I'd think if your average speed is 50-60, and you're only on the throttle half the time, the cooling may not be as much of a problem as it seems like. I thought that propwash over engines was minimal anyway, since most of the shove happens at ~2/3rds of the length of the blade.

I'm still for misting water both inside and outside the engine. It won't make too much steam and isn't covered by fuel rules. You can weld up a sheet from the gas tank bulge to the rocker cover and have a huge flat water tank in there.

This build is epic.

K Car Stalker

502

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

firegremlin wrote:

This build is epic.

500 replies and counting...yeah Marc is doing somthing epic here no doubt.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Couple interesting points about the difference between cars and planes
> Auto engines run at a minuscule % of load, while aircraft run 70%-ish all the time and more on take off - thus aircraft engines are a LOT more robust than car engines - Given the much lower power loading, yet still at A/C RPM settings, this thing should have LOTs of heat capacity available just through radiation/convection.
> A/C usually have very tightly cowled engines and don't get that great a cooling - probably the MR2 cools dang near as well (for some of the cylinders anyway) - easy answer is to put a flow deflector on the roof - that will help some.
> Auto engines need lots craziness to accommodate the driveability needs of constantly changing RPM and load, and planes don't - hence Mags and manually set timing is fine for A/C. EFI and electronic spark control are really beneficial when putting a plane engine in a car!
> Reciprocating mass in the A/C engine is quite a bit higher - good for smoothness behind a prop, but may make for very slooooow speed changes in a car... may take lots of shifting!

Anyway, should be fun, and is the most interesting Lemons project to date! - far harder than splicing cars together or even twin engines!

"Don't mess with Lexas!" LS400. We survived another one! See website link for build details.
Maker of the "unofficial Lemons fish!" - If you ask nice, I'll likely give you one at the track.

504

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Those heat loading statements seem reasonable. time will tell what the end result will actually be.

anyways, onto progress for tonight. I got the fuel rail/pressure regulator setup made:

http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/IMG_0168.jpg
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/IMG_0169.jpg

and with all the stuff bolted to it:
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/IMG_0170.jpg

(note that i used a sealant as a "just in case" because i'm using NPT threads instead of NPTF. but all threads were cut on the milling machine so they should be very precise/tight.

here you can see cyl #1 with a fuel line going to it:
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/IMG_0171.jpg

here you can see that things are getting a bit busy now that i've added MAP sensor vacuum hoses, plug wires and the fuel rail.
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/IMG_0172.jpg


the good news is there should not be much left to add in that area. only the second vacuum port for brake booster use.

this marks a pretty critical point in the build. I think that mechanicaly there is now enough stuff built that if i had the electrical done I could fire the motor up. I'll be pushing really hard to fire the engine this weekend.

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Looks great Marc!  Can't wait to see and hear the video of it running.

BRE Datsun (Broke Racing Effluence) formerly Dawn of the Zed Racing
'74 260Z
Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/editpicture.php … 2559430584

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Help me out here, 5 cylinders, one inlet, and 7 total ports on your fuel rail. Are you running a return line?

Maximum Efforts Motorsports
Mid-Engine Chevette
S-10 incoming...

507

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

St. Mary wrote:

Help me out here, 5 cylinders, one inlet, and 7 total ports on your fuel rail. Are you running a return line?

yeah, 6 ports strait into the manifold are for the 5 cylinders plus the feed line. the regulator has the return line on it.

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

I so wish I had the balls to steal one of the old Wasp engines from work and send it to you to try out.

Good luck with all this.

Maximum Efforts Motorsports
Mid-Engine Chevette
S-10 incoming...

509 (edited by Marc 2011-03-24 06:44 PM)

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

St. Mary wrote:

I so wish I had the balls to steal one of the old Wasp engines from work and send it to you to try out.

Good luck with all this.

not sure which one you're talking about but even the smallest wasp is a 450HP engine and the biggest is 4300HP (71.5L displacement, twin turbocharged and supercharged.

somehow i don't think the judges would let me on the track with 4300HP!


while i'm not saying i would not do this again with a different engine, i think i'd prefer to do the next outlandish project with a turboshaft engine.

also, if anyone else is thinking of doing a radial in a car, i'd definately suggest a low cylinder count motor. it's getting tiring to make 5 of everything. i'd be worse with a 9 cylinder or a two row 10 or 14 cylinder engine. though for what it's worth megasquirt could waste-spark control a 14 cylinder radial without a problem. you would just have to lie to the controller a bit smile

510 (edited by St. Mary 2011-03-24 06:54 PM)

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

7500hp enough to float your boat?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Lot-7-Pr … rtsQ5fGear

Hell, you could probably get this for free. Build one good one from the lot of 7 and try to get 20k for the leftovers. 7500hp for free is a pretty good deal I'd say.

And the Wasp I was thinking of is this little bugger:

http://www.scharch.org/Ed_Scharch/USN%20Aircraft/Pratt-Whitney_R-1340.jpg

500+hp and weighs less than some of the iron blocks others are dropping in their rigs.

What did you say about making only 5 of everything?

Maximum Efforts Motorsports
Mid-Engine Chevette
S-10 incoming...

511

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

hehe, those turbo shaft engines have been on eBay since at least the beginning of this project. while comical to think about, it's slightly less than practical. it honestly seems like a good deal if i needed 7500HP smile

That wasp engine looks nice, when are you dropping it off? smile 500hp sounds quite pleasant.

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

A gpu powered hybrid would be cool.

"You can’t make a pig into a race car, but you can make a very fast pig."

513

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Team BenzGay wrote:

A gpu powered hybrid would be cool.

you mean APU?

the hybrid route would be the easy way out. power to the wheels through a CVT transmission that is manually controlled by the driver is the way to do it smile

514

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

...I ...want...that wasp...motor...

big_smile~~~

515

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Serj wrote:

...I ...want...that wasp...motor...

big_smile~~~

you would not once you realized how much work is involved.

that one would be significantly more complicated. the engine cannot straddle the transmission.

516

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

just got home and the fed-ex man left some toys for me smile

all the wiring supplies are here and also the superduty fan arrived.

http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/IMG_0173.jpg
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/IMG_0174.jpg

I know from my experience with my tow rig that this thing moves quite a bit of air, but it's size still concerns the heck out of me.


there are probably a few slightly bigger fans i could use but the judges have said no to semi fans and no nonononono!!!!! to a prop. so this is effectively the most passive cooling i can put on here. the rest will have to come from water injection E85 and the tune.

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Somthing jumped out at me with your fuel rail and lines,
Are you running 45psI for fuel pressure? You might want to think about better line/fittings,
From your picture it looks like standard fuel line and clamps, I speak from experience that 45psi is too much for this type hose. NHRA won't let you run more than 12 inches total in a drag car fuel system with only 5 psi so I would assume with EFI this may be a problem.
Jay and the boys really frown apon fuel leaks and it would suck to see this back on the trailer for somthing that could be avoided.

Manny.
Elmo's revenge.

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Not that you need any theme help, but a Red Baron theme would go well with the already existing color of your car.

With any luck you'll run in a race against the Snoopy van.

-Victor

519

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Mkotzias wrote:

Somthing jumped out at me with your fuel rail and lines,
Are you running 45psI for fuel pressure? You might want to think about better line/fittings,
From your picture it looks like standard fuel line and clamps, I speak from experience that 45psi is too much for this type hose. NHRA won't let you run more than 12 inches total in a drag car fuel system with only 5 psi so I would assume with EFI this may be a problem.
Jay and the boys really frown apon fuel leaks and it would suck to see this back on the trailer for somthing that could be avoided.

Manny.
Elmo's revenge.

the line says right on it "Goodyear 50psi high pressure fuel line"

i'm using the non cutting barb fittings and hose clamps that are made to not cut the line. other than hardlines all around, there's not much extra i could do.

520 (edited by mike944 2011-03-25 07:47 PM)

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

The "make-em yourself" rubber lines and fittings for injection pressures that i remember using in the past, have multiple barbs, and they fit so tightly, you almost need the special tool to insert them.

I can't remember specifically what you call them, because i'm turning up nothing on google.  But those single-barb ones don't look all that secure.

Maximum Effort Motorsports - Mid-engine 1979 Chevette - Class C Winner - GP Du Lac Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
New England Long Winter Build Award - 2015
IOE Winner, Loudon Annoying 2011, Judges Choice - Loudon Annoying 2012
Class C & Least Horrible Yank Tank winner - Boston Tow Party & Overhead Cam Bake 2011

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

mike944 wrote:

The "make-em yourself" rubber lines and fittings for injection pressures that i remember using in the past, have multiple barbs, and they fit so tightly, you almost need the special tool to insert them.

I can't remember specifically what you call them, because i'm turning up nothing on google.  But those single-barb ones don't look all that secure.

I believe what Mike 944 is referencing is "push lock" .
This is like what I was suggesting,(way cheaper than Braided)
Check out Jegs or Summit for the specs.

522 (edited by novaderrik 2011-03-25 09:50 PM)

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

would oem style nylon fuel lines work and be legal for this series? you can get the line (up to 5/8") and any adapter fittings you may need to use it from any parts store that sells Dorman parts for not too much money. you could even convert all the fittings to the oem style push on connectors that don't require tools to take them apart.

523

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

marc; wrt the wasp motor; we have a 98 CVPI, so I would probably do something less complex and involved than what you're doing. Something along the lines of running the OD gear direct drive to the tallest-ratio rear gear i could find and modulate it all with a clutch from a dump truck. My dad being a retired mechanical engineer could certainly work up something similar to how you're doing it, but I think even at your level to even attempt it with us would be ritual suicide.

still...want...wasp...motor...ignoring...insane...effort... drool!

anyway, back to the build. it's serious awesome in every way...cept that fan looks hella inadequate. Are you planning on shrouding the heck outta it?

524 (edited by Marc 2011-03-26 02:32 AM)

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

unless you guys are donating $800 to the pushlock and AN fitting fund, this is the way the fuel lines are staying. this is plenty safe, i've done dozens of vehicles like this without ever a problem. some i've driven offroad and gotten several pounds of goopy mud hanging from the lines, some i've driven on the road for several tens of thousands of miles.

are you guys seriously trying to apply NHRA rules to a $500 crapcan series? i understand the intention and i agree that yes, there are better ways to do the fuel lines. but i disagree that this is unsafe.

anyways, the offer stands, if someone wants to donate the fittings or the money to buy the fittings i'll make it better.

*edit* yes i have had problems with low quality line before. this is why i use goodyear line now. the crap they sell at most parts stores is just that.

525

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Serj wrote:

marc; wrt the wasp motor; we have a 98 CVPI, so I would probably do something less complex and involved than what you're doing. Something along the lines of running the OD gear direct drive to the tallest-ratio rear gear i could find and modulate it all with a clutch from a dump truck. My dad being a retired mechanical engineer could certainly work up something similar to how you're doing it, but I think even at your level to even attempt it with us would be ritual suicide.

still...want...wasp...motor...ignoring...insane...effort... drool!

anyway, back to the build. it's serious awesome in every way...cept that fan looks hella inadequate. Are you planning on shrouding the heck outta it?

you'll have two problems that i ran into early in this build which caused me to use the MR2:

1) you need a transverse mount engine bay to get something anywhere near wide enough to fit between the frame rails. and even then with more than 5 cylinders there would have been some contact with the frame rails. the diameter on that engine is a little over 51" (compared to the 43" of the engine i used)

2) the crown vic's height is 57". how do you plan on seeing around a 51" diameter motor?

other than that, the single speed setup would work just fine. especially if you could get a 2nd car to help push you down pit lane up to 10mph so you don't have to roach the clutch. and you don't need nearly as much gearing as you're thinking. the max wheel speed needs to be 1500-1800rpm depending on your tire size. if your motor spins up to 2200rpm you're only talking about a 1.5:1 or 1.2:1 total ratio. I had to step up the drive speed to put it in the input of a regular transmission because the transmission could not handle the torque from the motor. it's an inefficient way to do it, but it allows using way more off the shelf components (aka: lemon style)