1,026

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Marc
I spoke to my buddy and he mentioned he only knows about prop locknuts on constant speed props, and thinks the kinner is a fixed pitch unit. He mentions that there are PT-22’s still flying.

Anyways, he dug into an old manual on a P&W R1830 and here is what he says:

Sorry, picture quality isn't great, but this is from an old ww2 P&W overhaul manual.  Like I said in my voicemail, the retaining nut in this case is within the prop dome, so you don't normally see it, but that is the parts breakdown (#44 being the nut).  I don't know offhand if that kinner 5 cyl used a fixed pitch prop which would be different than what I usually deal with.  Anyway, wasn't really sure what he was looking for.

http://www.icedhay.com/images/Lemons/2011-11-14_17-47-41_371.jpg

Paul told me if you wanted more info or to talk specifics, that I should pass along his email address- so just let me know.

Flying Rat Motorsports- Turbo Taxi, RIP

1,027

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

olaaf,

yes, the pt-22 has a fixed pitch prop and unfortunately that locking mechanism does not look like it makes sense on the combination of propnut and prop flange that i'm using.

I think it has to do with the holes on the end of the crankshaft. it about has to.

1,028

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

awesome. Olaaf & Paul. you guys have helped me figure this thing out.

it's a ridiculously simple solution that i can't imagine why i hadn't thought of before.

the solution is in a slightly special castellated nut combined with a slightly special c-clip that has a pin in it.

hopefully i can buy the special c-clip and i can make the castellated nut without an issue.

1,029

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

got the parts for the next step here now:

http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase2/IMG_0036.jpg

that's a crank tone wheel from a Ford Triton V10 (40-1 teeth), a steel v-belt pulley and an interference fit collar for the crank.

I was surprised how difficult it was to get a steel v-belt pulley instead of a cast iron one. all i could find was this 5/16ths one instead of a 1/2" but i'll make it work.

everything needs to get welded together and onto the prop flange and we'll be in business.

I also ordered two of these: http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/hall … p-489.html (threaded body hall effect sensors)

there are a few reasons for the change from the previous crank/cam sensors:
1)it was noisy as hell
2)it was beating up the alternator bearings. the alternator expects some level of give in it's drive.
3)my ratio was a bit off, the alternator wasn't charging enough at the target idle RPM
4)the crank walks back and forth about 1/10" or so.

I hadn't expected the ability for the crank to move like that, nothing looks out of place, i think it's just a fact of this motor. in it's normal application it would have quite a bit of forward pre-load and there's no need to stop it from going the other way. the front loading surface is a roller bearing. the rear surface is a thrust bushing. this caused my gap sensor to catch on the toothed wheel. damage was definitely accumulating, not sure how long it would last.

with the new setup, crank walk won't affect anything as long as it does not runout more than 2mm, we'll be in business.

Then, for the cam pulse, i'm debating what i want to do.

option 1) just do without. i can lie to megasquirt and tell it that it's running a 10cylinder even fire waste spark motor. everything will run right, but the scaling on the fuel values will be all wrong.

option 2) install a hall effect sensor in the valve cover of the #1 intake valve. the sensor can detect when the valve is depressed and get me my 720degree synchronization pulse.

here's a pic to make it a bit clearer
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase2/IMG_0037.jpg

the nice thing is i've been thinking about this one for a bit. so i even have an extra valve cover that isn't in very good shape (it's cracked in a few spots) so it would be no loss to modify it.

my thought is to try option 2 and if i can't get it to work right, screw it and go to option #1.

1,030

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Marc wrote:

got the parts for the next step here now:



option 1) just do without. i can lie to megasquirt and tell it that it's running a 10cylinder even fire waste spark motor. everything will run right, but the scaling on the fuel values will be all wrong.

my thought is to try option 2 and if i can't get it to work right, screw it and go to option #1.

Marc

Can you not divide your REQ_FUEL by 2 once it's calculated by TunerStudio? Then all of the fuel load scaling should work out.. unless i'm missing something?

Flying Rat Motorsports- Turbo Taxi, RIP

1,031

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

olaaf wrote:
Marc wrote:

got the parts for the next step here now:



option 1) just do without. i can lie to megasquirt and tell it that it's running a 10cylinder even fire waste spark motor. everything will run right, but the scaling on the fuel values will be all wrong.

my thought is to try option 2 and if i can't get it to work right, screw it and go to option #1.

Marc

Can you not divide your REQ_FUEL by 2 once it's calculated by TunerStudio? Then all of the fuel load scaling should work out.. unless i'm missing something?

i'd also lose atomization. i'm using very fine injector nozzles that help with the super low compression ratio. if i go with a 360 sync instead of a 720 sync i'll have 2 pulses of fuel and one will sit in there for quite a bit. remember how slow this motor spins (1900rpm max)

1,032

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

I say try it without CMP signal.
CIS runs OK w/ fuel sprayed in the manifold continuously.

And remember that RFG starts to boil at something like 75*F.  Assuming some lower than standard atmosphere pressure in the intake runner, it would be difficult to keep the fuel in liquid state.  On the vintage junk I work on, it's damn near impossible to get a mechanical fuel pump to work now, because the pump just boils the RFG in the suction line.

Jim C.
If God meant for us to race, we'd all have baggy Nomex skin.
08TMS.09NL.10GM, SP, NL.11SP, NL.12SP, VIR, NL.13GM, NJ.14NJ, VIR, WGI.15AB.16GM.17NCM.18GM.19...

1,033

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

RFG?

1,034 (edited by Junkyard Dog 2011-11-18 08:09 AM)

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

RFG is fuel additives like MTBE and ethanol. Sometimes it's butane and the like. If they boil at low temps then yes they can boil in the fuel lines or tank and lead to some weird problems. Fuel is reformulated for altitude and ambient temperature conditions. A buddy and I once put fuel in our dirt bikes at sea level then towed them to the mountains to ride. Mine started running funny and the plastic tank seemed to be larger than normal, when gripping with my knees it seemed wider than usual. So I stopped to check; the tank was pressurized which is definitely not normal. After I let the pressure off I took off the cap and looked inside the FUEL WAS BOILING. yikes Looked just like water boiling on the stove. I think it was because the radiators were just in front of the tank, the hot air was warming the tank to the point that some additive was past its boiling point. My buddy who bought gas the same place I did had the same problem, the locals had bought gas in the mountains didn't experience it.

Philosophy of life: old age and treachery will ALWAYS overcome youth, enthusiasm and cash. General smartass know it all beer swilling ne'er do well. Avoid eye contact with this person, best avoided completely. 2008 Animal House Racing CMP 'Most Likely To Leave In An Ambulance' 2009 Blind Rodent Racing CMP 2010 Team Galileo CMP 2011 Roundhouse Kick Racing CMP 2012 Road Kill Grill Racing CMP (x2)

1,035

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

RFG = ReFormulated Gasoline.  The new EPA mandated fuel that doesn't work well w/ unpressurized fuel systems (vented tanks & carburetors).

It does however work really well w/ pressurized fuel systems because as soon as the fuel leaves the pressurized injector rail (is shot into the manifold), it is boiling.

Jim C.
If God meant for us to race, we'd all have baggy Nomex skin.
08TMS.09NL.10GM, SP, NL.11SP, NL.12SP, VIR, NL.13GM, NJ.14NJ, VIR, WGI.15AB.16GM.17NCM.18GM.19...

1,036

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Interesting, I did not realize they had been tweaking with the boiling point.

1,037

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

As I recall there is also a winter vs summer formulation? I am unclear as to the effects of summer vs winter, low vs high altitude and california vs the real world but I know there are some significant differences.

Daniel Sycks

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

I think some masters of Field Expedient Engineering (e.g. Dave Morrow, NSF Racing) need to make their own super-redneck version of this swap. I'm picturing five random carburetors and a '70 Eldorado chain drive. All measuring done with a freebie hardware-store yardstick.

1,039

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Judge Phil wrote:

I think some masters of Field Expedient Engineering (e.g. Dave Morrow, NSF Racing) need to make their own super-redneck version of this swap. I'm picturing five random carburetors and a '70 Eldorado chain drive. All measuring done with a freebie hardware-store yardstick.

*LOL*

man up... it looks more complete than what i started with: http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Row-18-cyl-Ra … 4aadafd4a6

good for at least 2000HP and BS free in a Lemons race!

1,040

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Hoping for a update sometime soon as a Christmas present....  as foolish as that may sound.

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Crossed-fingers bump

ALLEGEDLY!

-Dave
Scuderia Ignorante // Modena / Dearborn / Aichi Prefecture / West Texas

1,042

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

JdeMod wrote:

Hoping for a update sometime soon as a Christmas present....  as foolish as that may sound.

IgnoranteWest wrote:

Crossed-fingers bump

sorry guys. nothing right now. i got side-tracked with an awesome deal on other Lemons parts plus I've been in the middle of doing maintenance to the rest of my fleet that I've been neglecting while doing Lemons builds.

running an MR2 in Lemons caused me to side-track my daily driver MR2 for most of last summer and i don't want to repeat that next summer.

but don't worry, it's still all happening. the motor will be running again once i can squeeze about another 15-20hours of labour into it.

1,043

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

so you thinking gingerman or autobahn for it?

Racing 4 Nickels - 1989 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera
2011 SHOWROOM-SCHLOCK SHOOTOUT  IOE Winner
2012 The Chubba Cheddar Enduro Class C winner
Facebook Page

1,044

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

BoB wrote:

so you thinking gingerman or autobahn for it?

I can't talk about this. Caitlin (my wife) made me promise i would not set a due date for this project again.

apparently she did not think it was reasonable how much time i spent on it as the race approached.

1,045 (edited by Junkyard Dog 2012-01-11 01:15 PM)

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Wimmen. Once they have a kid they think that should take precedence over everything else. tongue

Philosophy of life: old age and treachery will ALWAYS overcome youth, enthusiasm and cash. General smartass know it all beer swilling ne'er do well. Avoid eye contact with this person, best avoided completely. 2008 Animal House Racing CMP 'Most Likely To Leave In An Ambulance' 2009 Blind Rodent Racing CMP 2010 Team Galileo CMP 2011 Roundhouse Kick Racing CMP 2012 Road Kill Grill Racing CMP (x2)

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Junkyard Dog wrote:

Wimmen. They think they should take precedence over everything else. tongue

Fixed that for you.

"I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!"
IOE winner in the Super Snipe -- Buttonwillow 2012
IOE winner in Super Snipe v2.0 -- Buttonwillow 2016
"Every Super Snipe in Lemons has won an IOE!"

1,047

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Marc wrote:
BoB wrote:

so you thinking gingerman or autobahn for it?

I can't talk about this. Caitlin (my wife) made me promise i would not set a due date for this project again.

apparently she did not think it was reasonable how much time i spent on it as the race approached.

Chances are your going to have to spend an unreasonable amount of time before the race on it no matter when you race it, so the question is when does she want you to spend the unreasonable amount of time on your car.  march-april, may-june or september-october

Racing 4 Nickels - 1989 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera
2011 SHOWROOM-SCHLOCK SHOOTOUT  IOE Winner
2012 The Chubba Cheddar Enduro Class C winner
Facebook Page

1,048

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

BoB wrote:
Marc wrote:
BoB wrote:

so you thinking gingerman or autobahn for it?

I can't talk about this. Caitlin (my wife) made me promise i would not set a due date for this project again.

apparently she did not think it was reasonable how much time i spent on it as the race approached.

Chances are your going to have to spend an unreasonable amount of time before the race on it no matter when you race it, so the question is when does she want you to spend the unreasonable amount of time on your car.  march-april, may-june or september-october

yes and no. it's all about doing it at a regular pace.

Besides, Caitlin is great, she's hardly being controlling about this stuff. i haven't quit working in the garage, I've just been working on other stuff.

1,049

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Jim and I were talking while tossing 700lb motors around his garage the other day about you and your adventures. Glad to hear you are still plugging away but at what may be a more easily sustained pace.

Daniel Sycks

1,050

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

would you guys hate me if i took up this guy that's offering me a running turboshaft engine in exchange for my radial?

it's more than a running engine. it's a running engine and all the knowledge on how to keep it happy/alive.

of course, it would go in the same chassis. apparently as long as i don't let the motor idle down i should have no problems meeting the 92db @50' sound limit. they are noisiest at idle.