Topic: The gas turbine powered MR2 build begins

Here it is everyone, the new drivetrain build begins. don't expect this one to go as fast as the previous one due to the fact that i'm a dad now and have slightly different priorities, but at this point i expect the build to take about a year. my plan is to race it in the fall 2013.

at this point, there are two drivetrain designs i may go with, the first design is the one that's been discussed on the previous post:
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase3/Drivetrain%201.jpg

the next possibility replaces the belt CVT, the clutch & reduction unit and much of the other custom bits with a mostly stock powerglide transmission. but it does still require a custom gearbox to combine both turbine outputs into one.
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase3/Drivetrain%202.jpg

i'm not entirely sure which one i'm going to go with. the 2nd option seems better if i can get a properly designed torque converter. starting can be done without a load on the turbines by having the trans in neutral and i can find the acceptable idle point with the load from the torque converter when in drive without the car moving.

I expect a *TON* of heat from the trans oil in the 2nd solution. If i go that way i'll need a very powerful cooling solution.

Re: The gas turbine powered MR2 build begins

The transmission & transfer case setup:

The advantage of using the E series Toyota transmission is that it bolts right up in the chassis, i don't need special axle shafts and other potential issues. i'm essentially running an updated version of what the Celica all-trac ran:

http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase3/AWD%20E%20series%20.jpg

the advantage of using the rav-4 box instead of the all-trac box is that it allows a V6 motor with it's extra clearance. and has a more appropriate gear ratio for my application (2.928:1)

the only difference is, i won't be using the AWD center/front double differential. the plan is to weld the drivespline right to the side of the non AWD application differential so that the AWD transfer case can add power strait to the ground.

also, i want to look into the possibility of running the larger drive axles for this application. normally the AWD uses a smaller spline CV since power is distributed to 4 wheels and i do not have that advantage. the bore through the rav-4 box is about 5mm too small at just one section to allow that but opening the box up should reveal if that can be machined away.

so here's the trans and t-case in question:
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase3/IMG_0044.JPG

yup, the transmission looks new because it is. i bought it years ago for my daily driver strait from Toyota after getting a terrible rebuild that cracked my transmission case and when they shipped me the first one UPS was kind enough to put a fork right through the transmission. so they gave me the broken one and sold me a new one. I've since repaired the case by welding the aluminium but i may as well use it for this and i have zero dollars in it.

the plate on the side just unbolts and the rav-4 box bolts on (other than one bolt since they changed the design a bit in 12years (1989 design versus 2001)
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase3/IMG_0043.JPG

Re: The gas turbine powered MR2 build begins

on the topic of the motor, i made a decision to use a V6 instead of an I4 since it's just as easy and there's no such thing as enough power.  this decision was aided by the fact that i found out the turbines likely only make 75hp each.

Re: The gas turbine powered MR2 build begins

and then finally, the gas turbines call for a bunch of safety wiring so i bought 3 different sizes of wire and some safety pliers:

http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/phase3/IMG_0045.JPG

Re: The gas turbine powered MR2 build begins

well begun is half done.

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Re: The gas turbine powered MR2 build begins

Marc wrote:

I expect a *TON* of heat from the trans oil in the 2nd solution. If i go that way i'll need a very powerful cooling solution.

Very powerful cooling solution, indeed.

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Re: The gas turbine powered MR2 build begins

i doubt i'll need that much. the original generator design these turbines came out of actually had a rather inovative cooling solution that i can reuse. they used an exhaust ventury to suck a bunch of air and dilute the exhaust. then they put a radiator across the air intake to the exhaust venturi.

i can probably use a small honda radiator and that same air movement setup. mount the whole thing out of harm's way and fill it with water to heat exchange with the trans oil.

Re: The gas turbine powered MR2 build begins

Marc wrote:

on the topic of the motor, i made a decision to use a V6 instead of an I4 since it's just as easy and there's no such thing as enough power.  this decision was aided by the fact that i found out the turbines likely only make 75hp each.

So then you're committing to dual-fuel?  What are your thoughts on cell location?

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Re: The gas turbine powered MR2 build begins

tikibug wrote:
Marc wrote:

on the topic of the motor, i made a decision to use a V6 instead of an I4 since it's just as easy and there's no such thing as enough power.  this decision was aided by the fact that i found out the turbines likely only make 75hp each.

So then you're committing to dual-fuel?  What are your thoughts on cell location?

technically, the turbines can run on gasoline. otherwise i will beg and plead for a dual tank exemption. i don't have a solid plan on that yet. but finding an appropriate diesel engine is complication that i don't need on this project. I'd have to get a 2AD-FHV shipped from the UK.

Re: The gas turbine powered MR2 build begins

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Re: The gas turbine powered MR2 build begins

Marc, is this going in the MR2 chassis? The turbines in the frunk? Oy. I like it. Is the plan to just throw the E153 in neutral when you switch to turbine power?

I'd suggest giving more early thought to the fuel tank situation rather than later. Jay is definitely tightening up the fuel cell regs going forward and if you're using the MR2 chassis, you and I both know that you don't have a ton of spare room to handle packaging issues.

Cheers brother.

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12

Re: The gas turbine powered MR2 build begins

I thought his original plan was to stick all of that in the back where he had the radial, and both using the same gas tank for fuel since turbines can burn pretty much anything.   Not sure but thought it might be the OE tank.

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Re: The gas turbine powered MR2 build begins

Actually now that I look at the diagram (with the benefit of a glass of whiskey in my hand), I'm betting that what we're looking at is the Toyota motor/transmission in the proper place and the gas turbines in the trunk proper. Which means that he could run the stock fuel tank in its stock position to fuel the gas motor and a smaller fuel cell in the frunk if he wants to run the turbines on kerosene/diesel/biodiesel/JetA. 

Like I said, give this some thought early, Marc. Having been down this road for a fuel cell in the SIMCA/MR2 chimera, the frunk is smaller than it seems due to the mounts for the front strut bars and the front LCA's (so you can't compromise going forward and down) and the brake and clutch master cylinders (so you can't compromise going back and up). You would think, hey, just cut the floor out and there's gotta be plenty of room there! But there's less room than you'd think, and most off-the-shelf fuel cells don't want to fit there.

However, if you aren't opposed to moving the radiator out of the front of the car, there is some additional room, but you're going to have to find a really short fuel cell to make it work without interfering with the front strut arm mounts AND the brake/clutch master cylinders.

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Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.

Re: The gas turbine powered MR2 build begins

sorry for the late reply guys, the system bliped and i did not get a notification e-mail

Mulry wrote:

Marc, is this going in the MR2 chassis? The turbines in the frunk? Oy. I like it. Is the plan to just throw the E153 in neutral when you switch to turbine power?

I'd suggest giving more early thought to the fuel tank situation rather than later. Jay is definitely tightening up the fuel cell regs going forward and if you're using the MR2 chassis, you and I both know that you don't have a ton of spare room to handle packaging issues.

Cheers brother.

it's going in the same red MR2 chassis that had the radial. it's already got a really nice cage in it so it's one less thing to do.

the plan is to have the turbines to augment the power. i could drive on turbines only with the e153 in neutral since it's oil pump is driven by the ring gear, but likely it'll be in triple engine mode most of the time.

BoB wrote:

I thought his original plan was to stick all of that in the back where he had the radial, and both using the same gas tank for fuel since turbines can burn pretty much anything.   Not sure but thought it might be the OE tank.

yeah, the MR2 is super tight, if they run well on gasoline i'll just use the OE tank. it'll give me about 20-25minutes of runtime between refueling.

Mulry wrote:

Actually now that I look at the diagram (with the benefit of a glass of whiskey in my hand), I'm betting that what we're looking at is the Toyota motor/transmission in the proper place and the gas turbines in the trunk proper. Which means that he could run the stock fuel tank in its stock position to fuel the gas motor and a smaller fuel cell in the frunk if he wants to run the turbines on kerosene/diesel/biodiesel/JetA. 

Like I said, give this some thought early, Marc. Having been down this road for a fuel cell in the SIMCA/MR2 chimera, the frunk is smaller than it seems due to the mounts for the front strut bars and the front LCA's (so you can't compromise going forward and down) and the brake and clutch master cylinders (so you can't compromise going back and up). You would think, hey, just cut the floor out and there's gotta be plenty of room there! But there's less room than you'd think, and most off-the-shelf fuel cells don't want to fit there.

However, if you aren't opposed to moving the radiator out of the front of the car, there is some additional room, but you're going to have to find a really short fuel cell to make it work without interfering with the front strut arm mounts AND the brake/clutch master cylinders.


you got it, it's all going in the trunk/engine bay. it'll be an exercise in origami! the goal is to get the engine lid to close also, but i won't feel bad if i need to make a hump for the turbines.

i will definitely fit a fuel cell up front if nothing else for use on the street. the only question is if it has to be removed for lemons. but that's not a discussion for this. it's a safety tech discussion. i don't expect to be able to fit a very big tank.  the brakes and the clutch can move inside the cabin with reverse mounted masters and the power steering stuff can all be removed. with a custom cell there is enough room for 25gal up there. without a custom cell i can probably fit 10-12gal which is the way i'll go. the passenger side floor would be ideal but i think that's an insurance no-no.





also, for what it's worth, i would like nothing better than to run a diesel engine in here. so if i somehow can arrange that coming from the UK, as long as it's the 2AD-FHV so it does not complicate any of the other stuff additionally, i'll definitely go for it.

Re: The gas turbine powered MR2 build begins

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ENGINE-MOTOR- … 1c2cf968dd

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TOYOTA-AVENSI … 4abaf7a2f9

The second one even comes with a 6 speed.

Re: The gas turbine powered MR2 build begins

sure "Post to: United Kingdom" makes things a bit trickier

Re: The gas turbine powered MR2 build begins

Not to clutter up your nice build thread, but how do you control the turbine output with the CVT or Powerglide?  Hand control?  Link it into the gas pedal?  The V6 output/control seems obvious.

Won't the turbines be spinning constantly and then you adjust power delivery via the transmission? 

So in theory you have the base HP of the V6 (150 HP?) and then an extra 150HP.  So will you couple that power at all RPMS?

If all this was answered in another thread, just point me there.

I'm excited to see your next creation.  Cool build.

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.

Re: The gas turbine powered MR2 build begins

this wasn't answered directly previously so i may as well do it here.

the v6 will be linked to it's gas pedal in the normal manner. the clutch and the shifter will only affect that engine's power.

the powerglide or CVT will be mechanicaly set to let the revs go as high as possible and only bring gearing in to stop overspeeding the turbines. the snowmobile CVTs already do this, and the powerglide can be set to do the same by essentially leaving the kickdown connected to atmospheric pressure so it's assuming 100% full throttle constantly. there may be a bit more to getting the powerglide to shift optimally but that's the idea anyways.

the throttle to the turbines is the only tricky part. the simple answer is that i make automotive electronics for a living and i'll use that voodoo to do this. the more complicated answer is:

i'll probably map 60-100% throttle on the gas engine to 0-100% throttle on the turbine with the following working envelope:
1) stay above idle RPM
2) don't allow fueling above 50,000RPM
3) don't allow more fuel than the turbine can take based on it's current RPM & compressor exit pressure. (intake air temperature may also figure in)
4) reduce fueling to prevent exhaust from reaching over 1250F

the turbines will have a separate ignition switch and a separate start switch and if i use a powerglide it'll probably have a drive and a neutral position only, no reverse or park.

it'll probably drive a bit funny and take some getting used to, but it should be fun.

Re: The gas turbine powered MR2 build begins

May I suggest an Idea?  (Not having any knowledge of turbines, but understanding throttle inputs in a racing situation)

Scenario #1  You have a relatively low HP and low torque gas powered engine that will respond "normally" to throttle inputs.  Typically, for even a rear-wheeled driven car, transitions from 50 to 100% throttle will not cause any significant change in traction (at 150HP), and often the driver will provide that input quite quickly.  (In otherwords, it would be intuitive to apply max throttle quickly when exiting a corner).  Car will drive safely, and will be relatively quick.  There is room for error at throttle inputs from 50-100%, and precise throttle input isn't necessary.

Scenario #2 In your proposed situation, you would have the same gas powered engine that will respond the same at 0-100% throttle input, and two turbines that would respond 0-100% output at 60-100% throttle.  Assuming linear throttle response (big assumption), at 60% throttle input you would have 60% gas and 0% turbine (let's guestimate 100HP/100 Ft-lbs total without getting into HP curves/RPMS/etc), but at 80% throttle you would have roughly 120HP from the gas engine and 75HP from the turbines for a total of 195HP and at 100% throttle you would have 300HP total.  Granted, this is a huge simplification, but it could mean very little throttle movement results in big changes in horspower/torque.  This would make for a very difficult to drive car.

I might be making a mountain out of a mole hill, or I may not really understand what I am talking about (more likely).  Seems like if you can vary the output from the turbines with a tranny, it would be easier to spread the variability of output over the entire range of the throttle (or as much as is practical). 





Marc wrote:

this wasn't answered directly previously so i may as well do it here.

the v6 will be linked to it's gas pedal in the normal manner. the clutch and the shifter will only affect that engine's power.

the powerglide or CVT will be mechanicaly set to let the revs go as high as possible and only bring gearing in to stop overspeeding the turbines. the snowmobile CVTs already do this, and the powerglide can be set to do the same by essentially leaving the kickdown connected to atmospheric pressure so it's assuming 100% full throttle constantly. there may be a bit more to getting the powerglide to shift optimally but that's the idea anyways.

the throttle to the turbines is the only tricky part. the simple answer is that i make automotive electronics for a living and i'll use that voodoo to do this. the more complicated answer is:

i'll probably map 60-100% throttle on the gas engine to 0-100% throttle on the turbine with the following working envelope:
1) stay above idle RPM
2) don't allow fueling above 50,000RPM
3) don't allow more fuel than the turbine can take based on it's current RPM & compressor exit pressure. (intake air temperature may also figure in)
4) reduce fueling to prevent exhaust from reaching over 1250F

the turbines will have a separate ignition switch and a separate start switch and if i use a powerglide it'll probably have a drive and a neutral position only, no reverse or park.

it'll probably drive a bit funny and take some getting used to, but it should be fun.

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.

Re: The gas turbine powered MR2 build begins

you're not entirely wrong, but many cars have an exponential curve on their throttle by design. the reason to not kick in the turbine till higher throttle is simply fuel economy. it's MUCH cheaper to get 150hp from the gas engine than to get 150hp from 50% gas and 50% turbine.

but it'll all be software adjustable and i'll adjust till it feels right.

21 (edited by TeamLemon-aid 2012-11-06 02:57 PM)

Re: The gas turbine powered MR2 build begins

Won't the turbines be spinning at a constant speed and use the same GPH no matter whether you're using the ouput or not?


Marc wrote:

you're not entirely wrong, but many cars have an exponential curve on their throttle by design. the reason to not kick in the turbine till higher throttle is simply fuel economy. it's MUCH cheaper to get 150hp from the gas engine than to get 150hp from 50% gas and 50% turbine.

but it'll all be software adjustable and i'll adjust till it feels right.

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.

Re: The gas turbine powered MR2 build begins

TeamLemon-aid wrote:

Won't the turbines be spinning at a constant speed and use the same GPH no matter whether you're using the ouput or not?


Marc wrote:

you're not entirely wrong, but many cars have an exponential curve on their throttle by design. the reason to not kick in the turbine till higher throttle is simply fuel economy. it's MUCH cheaper to get 150hp from the gas engine than to get 150hp from 50% gas and 50% turbine.

but it'll all be software adjustable and i'll adjust till it feels right.

that's not quite true, at idle it'll be spinning 30,000RPM and consuming about 2-3GPH at 20% throttle it'll consume about 7GPH and at 100% throttle it'll consume about 8GPH. so it's very non linear, but if i can keep the engine idling when i need less than the gas motor's HP i would be better off. treating it like an on/off switch is better. and i'll probably try that also, make it so it goes to 100% when the gas throttle is at 100% and idle when the gas throttle is at 98%

once i get there it should be easy to test different modes out.

Re: The gas turbine powered MR2 build begins

It's starting to sound like the turbo on my '02 Jetta 1.8T.  When you hit 2000 RPM it was like you had two motors.  (And it sounded cool.)  But first time drivers would regularly stall the engine trying to pull out of a parking lot.

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Re: The gas turbine powered MR2 build begins

Racin_G73 wrote:

It's starting to sound like the turbo on my '02 Jetta 1.8T.  When you hit 2000 RPM it was like you had two motors.  (And it sounded cool.)  But first time drivers would regularly stall the engine trying to pull out of a parking lot.

I learned not to set the cruise control in my truck if it was raining or damp on the highway after it downshifted going up a hill and started fishtailing on the highway at 75mph.

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Re: The gas turbine powered MR2 build begins

Baron wrote:
Racin_G73 wrote:

It's starting to sound like the turbo on my '02 Jetta 1.8T.  When you hit 2000 RPM it was like you had two motors.  (And it sounded cool.)  But first time drivers would regularly stall the engine trying to pull out of a parking lot.

I learned not to set the cruise control in my truck if it was raining or damp on the highway after it downshifted going up a hill and started fishtailing on the highway at 75mph.

same reason i don't like to hand noobs the keys to a rev-happy VTEC honda for track duty.

baaaa becomes WAAAAAAAAA way too quickly for some people to react appropriately to.

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Soon to start losing in Class C