• From: Portland
  • Registered: 2009-05-02
  • Posts: 568

Re: A note about the "Best. Corner Workers. Ever" at Buttonwillow

The 3 members of our team that have done a few of these races had 0 black flags.  The one member with much more "seat time" but much less "Lemons seat time" wracked up 3 black flags.  And spent about 6 hours throughout the weekend telling us how much he didn't deserve them.

Whether of not you have racing experience (SCCA, NASA, etc) means squat when you are racing with people who can hardly spell their last name, let alone understand what an apex is.

The moral of the story?  NEVER assume that someone in front / behind you knows what the hell they are doing.  If you fly in to an apex assuming someone will see you and leave you the hell alone... you are flat wrong!  Because a) they will hit you and b) you will both get a black flags

Welcome to Lemons... I freakin love it!

Matt
Free Range Racing

27 Reply by Mad_Science (edited by Mad_Science 2009-08-21 11:32 AM)

  • From: Femont, CA
  • Registered: 2009-06-08
  • Posts: 136

Re: A note about the "Best. Corner Workers. Ever" at Buttonwillow

FreeRange wrote:

The moral of the story?  NEVER assume that someone in front / behind you knows what the hell they are doing.

As someone who has no idea what they're doing, I fully agree with this statement.

I'm happy to go to race driving school if you're happy to pay for it.

But as it is, everyone complaining about stupid clueless drivers in Lemons reminds me of "hardcore" surfers that hit the super-touristy beaches at 10am on Saturday and complain about all the kooks in the water. Ummm...what did you expect?

That said (and this is what I put in the survey), I'm all for a "rookie" magnet or something that you put on the car for rookie drivers. At least then you can plan on us doing something stupid as you approach.

Similarly, a 30-60 minute rookie drivers' meeting where they go over some basics of track etiquette (where/when/how to point/pass/be passed) might work wonders for black flaggery and general frustration.

There's as much ignorance as stupidity, I think.

There are those who call me...Judge Tim
Previously: Der Uberbird! BMW 633CSi
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  • From: Los Fucking Angeles
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
  • Posts: 1,032

Re: A note about the "Best. Corner Workers. Ever" at Buttonwillow

VKZ24 wrote:

No, we put our tail between our legs and wah wha wha!!!

Boy, does this sound EXACTLY like whining to anybody else?

"This is the scene where I get shot," Bronson said. "I have these little squibs that explode to make it look like bullets are hitting." "Fascinating," said Bergman. "I never knew how they did that." "You mean," asked Bronson, "you don't use machine guns in your movies?"
  • From: Olympia, WA
  • Registered: 2009-05-01
  • Posts: 210

Re: A note about the "Best. Corner Workers. Ever" at Buttonwillow

We got 5 black flags at Toledo and got threatened with being put on the trailer.  Think the difference with us (and not getting kicked out) was only one was for contact, not all black flags are treated the same.  We got all of them in the first four hours of the 24 hour event and didn't get any after.  Three of them were because of the wet conditions, our car turns into the best drift car ever when it's wet.

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Re: A note about the "Best. Corner Workers. Ever" at Buttonwillow

FreeRange wrote:

The 3 members of our team that have done a few of these races had 0 black flags.  The one member with much more "seat time" but much less "Lemons seat time" wracked up 3 black flags.  And spent about 6 hours throughout the weekend telling us how much he didn't deserve them.

Whether of not you have racing experience (SCCA, NASA, etc) means squat when you are racing with people who can hardly spell their last name, let alone understand what an apex is.

The moral of the story?  NEVER assume that someone in front / behind you knows what the hell they are doing.  If you fly in to an apex assuming someone will see you and leave you the hell alone... you are flat wrong!  Because a) they will hit you and b) you will both get a black flags

Welcome to Lemons... I freakin love it!

Yeah that'll be us at Houston, so apologies in advance. (I can in fact spell my own name though.) None of us has been on a track before.  I did however spend some time watching Youtube videos so I think I know what an apex is. I think.

Josh Poage
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Re: A note about the "Best. Corner Workers. Ever" at Buttonwillow

Mad_Science wrote:

That said (and this is what I put in the survey), I'm all for a "rookie" magnet or something that you put on the car for rookie drivers. At least then you can plan on us doing something stupid as you approach.

I'm not ashamed. We're actually painting "Warning: n00bs" on the back of our car, just to be safe.

Josh Poage
Poage Ma Thoin Racing - 1981 Fiat Brava #09 - 2009 Yee-haw It's Texas
Prison Break Racing - 1986 325e #27 - 2010 Gator-o-Rama
Poage Ma Thoin Racing - 1981 Fiat Brava #09 - 2011 Heaps in the Heart of Texas

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  • From: Land Of Subarus, Colorado
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
  • Posts: 9,416

Re: A note about the "Best. Corner Workers. Ever" at Buttonwillow

The really experienced racers are some of the worst Lemons offenders, because they don't make allowances for dumb/unexpected moves by other drivers and they're willing to risk everything on a zero-margin-for-error pass of the 85th-place Hyundai Excel. Then they wig out at us in the Penalty Box because it wasn't their fault!

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  • From: Clovis, CA
  • Registered: 2009-07-23
  • Posts: 44

Re: A note about the "Best. Corner Workers. Ever" at Buttonwillow

When I witnessed a car staying to the inside of the racetrack on every turn like a 400m trackstar- I knew it was going to be a good time.

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  • From: Portland
  • Registered: 2009-05-02
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Re: A note about the "Best. Corner Workers. Ever" at Buttonwillow

Mad_Science wrote:

But as it is, everyone complaining about stupid clueless drivers in Lemons reminds me of "hardcore" surfers that hit the super-touristy beaches at 10am on Saturday and complain about all the kooks in the water. Ummm...what did you expect?

Who is complaining?  I love this race!

Matt
Free Range Racing
  • From: Portland, OR
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
  • Posts: 201

Re: A note about the "Best. Corner Workers. Ever" at Buttonwillow

C.Plavan wrote:

When I witnessed a car staying to the inside of the racetrack on every turn like a 400m trackstar- I knew it was going to be a good time.

My wife (who is race-ignorant) was watching some video over my shoulder and saw a car in front of the video car continually running the extreme outside of the corners.  She looked at me and said 'WTF are they doing'?  Yup, some people just don't get it.

Erik
Dirt Cheap Rally
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  • From: san gabriel
  • Registered: 2009-05-01
  • Posts: 325

Re: A note about the "Best. Corner Workers. Ever" at Buttonwillow

FatBraff wrote:

Our flags were mostly mechanical... exhaust, hood, etc. Though I think we did get two for four wheels off...

Our crazier driver apparently drove through 3 flags though, for the hood... so umm... we had to talk to him about that.

ha, youve had an intervention!

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Re: A note about the "Best. Corner Workers. Ever" at Buttonwillow

Yep, that's exactly what happens with Realracerguys™, they go nuts and start destroying the car and getting 'undeserved' black flags 'no more flag black!' (as our Argentinian guest kept chanting) and get self-righteous about it.

Since ALL of my automobile racing experience is LeMony, and I came from motorcycle roadracing before, I do have some idea of appropriate lines, and to stay the heck out of the way of the scarier noobs. And on a bike, hitting someone HURTS, so I try not to put the car in danger.

I still have no idea, after looking at the slow-mo footage of the in-car camera, how we ended up getting missed by the spinning Stimulus Package.

It's been a blast.

FreeRange wrote:

The 3 members of our team that have done a few of these races had 0 black flags.  The one member with much more "seat time" but much less "Lemons seat time" wracked up 3 black flags.  And spent about 6 hours throughout the weekend telling us how much he didn't deserve them.

Whether of not you have racing experience (SCCA, NASA, etc) means squat when you are racing with people who can hardly spell their last name, let alone understand what an apex is.

The moral of the story?  NEVER assume that someone in front / behind you knows what the hell they are doing.  If you fly in to an apex assuming someone will see you and leave you the hell alone... you are flat wrong!  Because a) they will hit you and b) you will both get a black flags

Welcome to Lemons... I freakin love it!

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2007/2012/2013 Driver's Championship (what was I thinking!?) 143 races and counting.
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  • From: Los Fucking Angeles
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
  • Posts: 1,032

Re: A note about the "Best. Corner Workers. Ever" at Buttonwillow

One of the teams that got the sternest talking tos at buttonwillow were all SCCA pros and motorcycle racers. They were smashing into everything.

They kept saying, "but we were trying to out brake them into the corner."

Obviously a smart plan of attack when half the field has never been on a track before.

"This is the scene where I get shot," Bronson said. "I have these little squibs that explode to make it look like bullets are hitting." "Fascinating," said Bergman. "I never knew how they did that." "You mean," asked Bronson, "you don't use machine guns in your movies?"
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Re: A note about the "Best. Corner Workers. Ever" at Buttonwillow

C.Plavan wrote:

When I witnessed a car staying to the inside of the racetrack on every turn like a 400m trackstar- I knew it was going to be a good time.

Hey, everyone knows that's the shortest path!

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  • Registered: 2009-05-27
  • Posts: 322

Re: A note about the "Best. Corner Workers. Ever" at Buttonwillow

My lessons from my rookie race at Stafford were:

1) The penalties aren't fair. They aren't even designed to be fair. They don't assess fault, even when there is a guilty and an innocent party. They are intended to be quick and easy to assess in the hellstorm of infractions (I presume).

2) Accept 1) and you'll be much happier.

3) If fairness happens (like letting you off when you were actually innocent), be grateful. If not, stop whining and see 2) above.


I do think that some written instructions on racing conduct (e.g. who has the apex and when, allowing racing room, etc.) would go a long way to reducing contact and make the race even more fun. Having some expectation about what the other driver SHOULD do would help. Of course, whether they WILL do it is another matter.

Having a really fast, good handling (obviously cheatin') car makes it easy to stay out of trouble because you can just drive around people in the corners and blow past them on the straights. Doing battle with a well matched car/driver is fun, but there is definitely the risk that if either of you mess up, you're both fetching burgers with duct tape on your legs.

If you're *a little* faster than the car in front of you, do you just tool around behind them (hoping they mess up or run out of gas or bladder capacity), or do you try to set up a pass where they will have to not run you off the road if you pull even with them in the braking zone? I don't have an answer.

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41 Reply by Bender/StickFigureRacing (edited by Bender/StickFigureRacing 2009-08-21 02:10 PM)

  • Registered: 2009-05-01
  • Posts: 526

Re: A note about the "Best. Corner Workers. Ever" at Buttonwillow

MurileeMartin wrote:
C.Plavan wrote:

When I witnessed a car staying to the inside of the racetrack on every turn like a 400m trackstar- I knew it was going to be a good time.

Hey, everyone knows that's the shortest path!

Hey! We resemble that comment, I told our "NOOB" to stay to the right all the time and just keep waving at the nice cars as they passed! We didn't know she wasn't going to listen to us though. big_smile

Team: V-Ram/Altamont Team: Knights of the Round Track/Reno/Buttonwillow/Thunderhill Team: Death Mobile/Sears 2010/Thunderhill/ChumpCar  Spokane/ MSR Houston/Buttonwillow/Sears. MRolla Project /Reno
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  • From: Los Fucking Angeles
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
  • Posts: 1,032

Re: A note about the "Best. Corner Workers. Ever" at Buttonwillow

EvergreenDan wrote:

1) The penalties aren't fair.

Fair? Fair? Who said anything about fair?

Here's how it works. You've heard of no fault insurance? We have an "All Fault" policy.

That means if you drive off the track, spin out, or touch another car, it's YOUR fault. Why? Because you were driving the car.

Even if the moron in front of you waves you past under yellow and you are stupid enough to then pass, that's still your fault.

Questions?

"This is the scene where I get shot," Bronson said. "I have these little squibs that explode to make it look like bullets are hitting." "Fascinating," said Bergman. "I never knew how they did that." "You mean," asked Bronson, "you don't use machine guns in your movies?"
  • From: Femont, CA
  • Registered: 2009-06-08
  • Posts: 136

Re: A note about the "Best. Corner Workers. Ever" at Buttonwillow

Judge Jonny wrote:

Even if the moron in front of you waves you past under yellow and you are stupid enough to then pass, that's still your fault.

Dang, that's crafty.

Gotta start doing that.

There are those who call me...Judge Tim
Previously: Der Uberbird! BMW 633CSi
"When life gives you Lemons, make lemonade. When life gives you crap, don't make a beverage out of it."

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  • Registered: 2009-05-27
  • Posts: 322

Re: A note about the "Best. Corner Workers. Ever" at Buttonwillow

Judge Jonny wrote:

Who said anything about fair?

Yup. I wasn't complaining or confused; I was advising acceptance.

Judge Jonny wrote:

312 black flags is redonkulous ...

Suggestion: Keep the "all fault" policy, but just publish some uniform "rules of engagement" to reduce the penalties. Not even part of the rules, but a "passing / driving in close quarters" tip sheet would help.

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Re: A note about the "Best. Corner Workers. Ever" at Buttonwillow

EvergreenDan wrote:

The penalties aren't fair.

I was hoping that the fact that we take bribes would dispel the myth of fairness. Loophole-seeking trackside lawyers will be eating a can of pork brains before they can get their second whine out!

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  • From: Femont, CA
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Re: A note about the "Best. Corner Workers. Ever" at Buttonwillow

MurileeMartin wrote:

Loophole-seeking trackside lawyers will be eating a can of pork brains before they can get their second whine out!

I think "squeal" was the word you were looking for.

There are those who call me...Judge Tim
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Re: A note about the "Best. Corner Workers. Ever" at Buttonwillow

Our team got one black flag at Buttonwillow, and it was well deserved. My father in law, who has never driven a car with anything but gas mileage in mind, managed to loop it twice on the same lap, going four wheels off each time. He got the homeless guy penalty, and had to wash people's windshields. It was great.

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Re: A note about the "Best. Corner Workers. Ever" at Buttonwillow

EvergreenDan wrote:

Suggestion: Keep the "all fault" policy, but just publish some uniform "rules of engagement" to reduce the penalties. Not even part of the rules, but a "passing / driving in close quarters" tip sheet would help.

Trying to keep my blood pressure in check here...

In racing, you must keep your car pointed in the direction of the race track no matter what (spinning)

In racing, you must keep all four of your racecar's tires on the race track at all times (off and on)

In racing, you may never contact another car no matter what (metal on metal)

In racing, you may never pass another car when you are under a yellow flag no matter what (duh)

If you speed in the pits we will cut your nads off.

That's essentially it -- five rules.

Yes, on occasion we have to haul in one you tards because you're driving to aggressively,  too slow, just showed your middle finger to a corner worker or enter the track backwards.

But for the most part, we're talking five rules. If you have trouble with those, you might want to reconsider this whole amateur racing thing

"This is the scene where I get shot," Bronson said. "I have these little squibs that explode to make it look like bullets are hitting." "Fascinating," said Bergman. "I never knew how they did that." "You mean," asked Bronson, "you don't use machine guns in your movies?"
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Re: A note about the "Best. Corner Workers. Ever" at Buttonwillow

Judge Jonny wrote:
EvergreenDan wrote:

Suggestion: Keep the "all fault" policy, but just publish some uniform "rules of engagement" to reduce the penalties. Not even part of the rules, but a "passing / driving in close quarters" tip sheet would help.

Trying to keep my blood pressure in check here...

But for the most part, we're talking five rules. If you have trouble with those, you might want to reconsider this whole amateur racing thing

Might I suggest you put a picture of Judge Jonny in your car for the next race. I am sure you won't forget the five rules knowing who is waiting for you in the pits if you do!

Team: V-Ram/Altamont Team: Knights of the Round Track/Reno/Buttonwillow/Thunderhill Team: Death Mobile/Sears 2010/Thunderhill/ChumpCar  Spokane/ MSR Houston/Buttonwillow/Sears. MRolla Project /Reno
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Re: A note about the "Best. Corner Workers. Ever" at Buttonwillow

Think of your car as an open wheel racecar. You can't bang wheels without something really bad happening. So dont hit any car, don't even think about it. It's hard to get by someone who's as fast as you are. I just hang with them til there's a chance to pass because of traffic, pitstop, or driver boo-boo. Even if it's for several laps. If they are fast and not holding you up, your lap times shouldn't be much slower than if you're in front with them on your ass. I did this with a couple of the BMW's at NPR. I even pointed them by a couple times so I could watch their lines and such. I was able to pass them back because of traffic. Driving with equal cars makes for some really fun laps.

As for racing with drivers of mixed experience, think of it like driving on the freeway in rush hour 70mph bumper to bumper. You have all sorts of drivers, some with no skills to great skills, good tires to under inflated bald ones, wornout steering components, you just don't know who's who. So what to do? Drive like you're invisible to the other drivers. Asuume they will pull over on you, be ready for it. Anticipate their moves. Of course you can't tell where they are going if something breaks or they spin.