• From: Salt Lake City
  • Registered: 2009-05-01
  • Posts: 363

Topic: X Class observations

The MRolla was 3rd in X class!!! WOoohoo. Well, that was out of 4 cars: Eyesore Miata, Angry Hamster, and the Pink Lloyd.

I haven't said anything until now because I really don't give a chit, but I am confused about the point of X class. Personally I don't subscribe to the hurt feelings some teams suffer from being put in X class, just want to have fun with a wonky car, but can understand why competitive teams would be irritated by being classified X.

How was the snowmobile powered Miata not X-class, but the turbo Eyesore Miata was? If a modified turbo qualifies, was Eyesore the only one at the race? If a snowmobile engine doesn't qualify, why does a motorcycle engine like the Angry Hamster's? Is a Ford V8 in an RX7 or Volvo a lesser modification than adding a turbo?

I've never understood the why but didn't care. Now I don't understand what qualifies. Seems VERY arbitrary.

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  • Registered: 2010-03-08
  • Posts: 420

Re: X Class observations

When we rolled the Mazdolaris MXLT-5 into BS, Phil said something along the lines of "what class should we put it in?  It isn't X because it is just a motor swap."  Which I agree with, though I guess I would, wouldn't I?

Then I heard that Eyesore got X-communicated.

At this point I'm a bit confused, too.  I'm not sure what behavior the Illemonati are trying to modify.  Is X a speed blow-off valve?  Not if the Lloyd is in it (no offense, and I know you guys have potential).  Maybe in Eyesore's case it is a message to bring the Brat already.

If the X rule was just added because folks were bitching about how they could never in a million billion years build a car like <insert current target of wrath here> in their garage or whatever, didn't we already have a rule for that?  You know, 2.4?

Yeah, I went there.

Scott

  • From: Romeoville, IL
  • Registered: 2009-12-12
  • Posts: 1,117

Re: X Class observations

The point is to F__K with us so teams who build something retarded that take the series too seriously leave.

The Charnal House Geo MetSHO: Turning less laps than a regular Metro, the hard way!

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  • Mulry
  • Mulry
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  • From: Dallas, TX
  • Registered: 2009-05-01
  • Posts: 4,607

Re: X Class observations

I've gotta agree with Larry on this one, I really don't understand why the Eyesore's got X-classed. I don't think that Phil or Jay or anybody has a grudge against their winning ways, and the Eyesore guys are all nice guys and willing to help other teams. And unlike the MRolla or the Angry Hamster, their car doesn't really fit the letter of the law:

"Cars whose mechanical layouts have been radically altered from stock (ie mid-engined Metros and tube-frame Model Ts) may be moved to the Prototype class."

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

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  • BoB
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  • From: Elmhurst, IL
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Re: X Class observations

I always hoped that x class would be to reward the teams that did something insane.  The Mrolla and the snowmobile engined miata should have been fighting for a trophy and some cash (cause god knows the stupid builds need cash more than the guys who just cage an already fast car) I could see if only one car showed up that qualified for x class it wouldn't be really much of a race for them, but I don't know, I'm just one of the dumb racers, so I can't really say I know the big picture for the Lemons HQ guys.

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  • From: Reno
  • Registered: 2009-09-02
  • Posts: 145

Re: X Class observations

hoverducky wrote:

Not if the Lloyd is in it (no offense, and I know you guys have potential). 
Scott

None taken.  having potential is what we keep telling ourselves to justify the hundreds of hours we have into building that car. Some day, we are going to kick some ass (I just hope it is in my lifetime). 

I didn't realize we there were only 4 X class cars.  To the extent there is an X class, the Lloyd obviously qualifies.  However, I am somewhat ambivalent about the whole idea.

Paul, aka BuFord Hogswaller:  Team Captain, Team Bavarian Ranchero and Team Pink Lloyd
  • From: Life's great in 21158
  • Registered: 2009-05-01
  • Posts: 3,361

Re: X Class observations

I think the deal is that Lemons has kind of (de?)evolved into two separate ideals.  (Note I say "ideals", not actuality):

1) Take a crappy, cheap car, do as little as possible to it, and put it on the race track
2) Take a crappy, cheap car, modify it to completely bizarre and almost unrecognizable levels, and put it on the race track.

With ideal #1, you've got a fairly predictable product, but in case #2, the chance exists (much like a thousand monkeys typing on a thousand typewriters) to create something awesome and competition-crushing. There's also a bit of imbalance between the two- while a Type 2 car _could_ conceivably be constructed within a Lemons budget, it would almost assuredly take a nearly-professional level of equipment, skills, and manpower to do so.  Whereas Type 1 cars could just be 4 dudes who paid some guy to cage an old Geo Storm. 

Both types of racing, and race cars, ideals, philosophies, whatever you want to call them, are really, really cool.  And I think (and I hope I am not speaking out of turn here) that Lemons wants to encourage BOTH types of cars.  Making room under the tent is what Class X's purpose was, in my opinion and judgement.  This is the first year for X Class, and like everything else it'll probably take some tweaking to work out, but I think the concept itself is sound.

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8 Reply by Lemons 300ZX (edited by Lemons 300ZX 2012-03-27 01:04 PM)

  • From: San Bruno, CA
  • Registered: 2009-11-24
  • Posts: 119

Re: X Class observations

mechimike wrote:

I think the deal is that Lemons has kind of (de?)evolved into two separate ideals.  (Note I say "ideals", not actuality):

1) Take a crappy, cheap car, do as little as possible to it, and put it on the race track
2) Take a crappy, cheap car, modify it to completely bizarre and almost unrecognizable levels, and put it on the race track.

With ideal #1, you've got a fairly predictable product, but in case #2, the chance exists (much like a thousand monkeys typing on a thousand typewriters) to create something awesome and competition-crushing. There's also a bit of imbalance between the two- while a Type 2 car _could_ conceivably be constructed within a Lemons budget, it would almost assuredly take a nearly-professional level of equipment, skills, and manpower to do so.  Whereas Type 1 cars could just be 4 dudes who paid some guy to cage an old Geo Storm. 

Both types of racing, and race cars, ideals, philosophies, whatever you want to call them, are really, really cool.  And I think (and I hope I am not speaking out of turn here) that Lemons wants to encourage BOTH types of cars.  Making room under the tent is what Class X's purpose was, in my opinion and judgement.  This is the first year for X Class, and like everything else it'll probably take some tweaking to work out, but I think the concept itself is sound.

I always just assumed that Class X was for those cars that were previous winners or built and crewed by previous winners. Almost like, these are the guys we expect to win. LOL. Seems though like you are saying as it is for the outrageous builds and combinations.

  • From: Oakland, CA
  • Registered: 2009-07-28
  • Posts: 134

Re: X Class observations

pgeorgeson wrote:

having potential is what we keep telling ourselves to justify the hundreds of hours we have into building that car. Some day, we are going to kick some ass (I just hope it is in my lifetime).

It will happen...it took us ~3 years to get the Hamster mostly reliable.  Bike engined cars on a Lemons budget are always going to be a crap shoot.  Just ignore the Metro Gnome as both it and Alex the builder are statistical outliers tongue  He has waaay more free time to tinker and develop a car than most people.

  • From: San Bruno, CA
  • Registered: 2009-11-24
  • Posts: 119

Re: X Class observations

squirrelly_z600 wrote:
pgeorgeson wrote:

having potential is what we keep telling ourselves to justify the hundreds of hours we have into building that car. Some day, we are going to kick some ass (I just hope it is in my lifetime).

It will happen...it took us ~3 years to get the Hamster mostly reliable.  Bike engined cars on a Lemons budget are always going to be a crap shoot.  Just ignore the Metro Gnome as both it and Alex the builder are statistical outliers tongue  He has waaay more free time to tinker and develop a car than most people.

Well what you guys have going for you is working now that car was flying and I love hearing it when some of the more aggressive drivers are in it that thing just screams by it was enterntainment just watching it drive around the track this weekend, and it scared the shit out of me when it passed me. LOL.

  • From: Reno
  • Registered: 2009-09-02
  • Posts: 145

Re: X Class observations

squirrelly_z600 wrote:
pgeorgeson wrote:

having potential is what we keep telling ourselves to justify the hundreds of hours we have into building that car. Some day, we are going to kick some ass (I just hope it is in my lifetime).

It will happen...it took us ~3 years to get the Hamster mostly reliable.  Bike engined cars on a Lemons budget are always going to be a crap shoot.  Just ignore the Metro Gnome as both it and Alex the builder are statistical outliers tongue  He has waaay more free time to tinker and develop a car than most people.

When I got home on Sunday night and my wife asked:  "Now why are you bothering with the Lloyd when you already have the Ranchero and it never breaks," I specifically gave you guys as my example of why we keep trying.  I know you guys struggled for a long time, but now you have it  figured out (mostly).

Paul, aka BuFord Hogswaller:  Team Captain, Team Bavarian Ranchero and Team Pink Lloyd

12 Reply by Evil Genius (edited by Evil Genius 2012-03-27 01:54 PM)

  • From: Davis, Ca
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
  • Posts: 1,843

Re: X Class observations

I would've been OK with X-class for the Mazdolaris MXLT-5..  But, I'm glad we didn't get it.  I stayed out of the debate as I work for Lemons and it wouldn't be fitting..       The car is a legit sub $500 car with tons of after-hours hours at a pro-race shop..       I think we would've finished 3rd in X......  Now, I could easily bring a Miata, e-30, Volvo etc... to the race and probably do well.  But where is the fun in that?   You guys would never have smelled the sweet smell of castor oil........

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  • Registered: 2009-10-25
  • Posts: 1,993

Re: X Class observations

I'd say Eyesores turbo miata will always be in X class from now on....  yet ANOTHER firm suggestion to retire it and bring the brat....

The really scary part is pretty much ALL other ghettocharged Lemons racers blow up from the boost....the only other one I can think of is the turbo'd 5 series...but I haven't seen that one in a while either....

I still like the idea of boost on the 928.....it just takes time to acquire enough parts for low enough cost....

Richard Doty
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  • From: Oakland, CA
  • Registered: 2009-07-28
  • Posts: 134

Re: X Class observations

I think the point that everyone can take away from the weekend is that Dave Coleman ruins everything tongue  First he wrecked flat black cars, then he "invented aluminum exhausts" ~7yrs after the fact, then he/the interwebs took credit for Alex's Lemons box truck...the list just goes on.  Finally, he has to come take the X-class win from us...what a dick smile

  • From: Tustin, CA
  • Registered: 2010-12-30
  • Posts: 3,275

Re: X Class observations

I don't think there will ever be a clear definition of what makes a car an X car.  Why? because someone will use that definition and build a car that goes right up to the definition but doesn't cross it.  Because that's what racers do.  Really, it's in the best interests of the Lemons staff to NOT define one.  If there is no set definition and no clarification, then the threat of being placed in "X" will scare some people off (as if the money is going to fund your racing).  It's the boogieman, there are no set directions on avoiding the boogieman.

Here's how I see it, comparing the eyesore miata and the snowmiata.  One "just" has a turbo and the other has a 650cc motor swap.  One has been proven to be fast and the other is pretty questionable as to whether it really would be fast.  If your goal is to discourage an arms race, you place the turbo in X and the small 2 stroke gets a pass.  At some point, they may develop the snowmiata to where it is consistently fast and I bet it gets moved to X.  Why?  because they said so.  I don't think a motor swap alone should put you in X.  Show up with a car powered by 27 weed whacker engines and you may or may not get the hero's welcome in class A/B/C.  Show up with a SHO powered miata and expect to be X

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16 Reply by Bender/StickFigureRacing (edited by Bender/StickFigureRacing 2012-03-27 03:32 PM)

  • Registered: 2009-05-01
  • Posts: 526

Re: X Class observations

Having the Mrolla in X class was awesome! This is where a car of that caliber should be.
Building the car under the $500.00 rule was accomplished by Jay giving us a $1.00 residual
for the MR2 that had been race 6 previous races, and the purchase of a wrecked Corolla.
Putting the Angry Hamsters in X class with us makes total sense.

That being said:
My opinion would be that putting anything that was not original equipment to the car could be technically considered x class.

Got a Chevy V-8 you want in a Geo Storm = X class
Want to put a slant 6 in your BMW = X class
Need a 6.7L Cummins Diesel with a Turbo to move your Lincoln Town car around the track? Plan on being in X Class.

If you improve the car you have with a home grown turbo set up, good for you! your in Class A for adding a little cheat to your car.
You add Headers and a big carburetor that's going to cost you 100 penalty laps.
New suspension components wrapped in grease and dirt, oops... yep you got caught! 200 penalty Laps. 

I wanted to see Evil Genius Johns car in X class with us and I know he would have been totally O.K. with that.

X class is for the teams that think outside the box! Or should I say they take the box and put wheels on it. This class is for cars that would never pass the legal test by any Police, Highway Patrol or Border Police in any of the 50 states.

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  • Registered: 2010-03-08
  • Posts: 420

Re: X Class observations

Bender/StickFigureRacing wrote:

X class is for the teams that think outside the box! Or should I say they take the box and put wheels on it. This class is for cars that would never pass the legal test by any Police, Highway Patrol or Border Police in any of the 50 states.

I'm not sure Jay would agree with this statement.  The Model T is street legal and street driven, and explicitly called out in the X-class rules.

Scott

  • Registered: 2009-05-01
  • Posts: 526

Re: X Class observations

hoverducky wrote:
Bender/StickFigureRacing wrote:

X class is for the teams that think outside the box! Or should I say they take the box and put wheels on it. This class is for cars that would never pass the legal test by any Police, Highway Patrol or Border Police in any of the 50 states.

I'm not sure Jay would agree with this statement.  The Model T is street legal and street driven, and explicitly called out in the X-class rules.

Scott

I know what you saying! I have a 52 Willy's truck on a Dodge 1 ton frame and I found someone who did some magic and it's a legal driver. I am saying if you are willing to go to that eXtreme to build a car or truck for the street then at the  track  it should be in X class.

I can guarantee you that we could get the MRolla legal for the streets if we wanted to.

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  • From: Oakland, CA
  • Registered: 2009-07-28
  • Posts: 134

Re: X Class observations

hoverducky wrote:
Bender/StickFigureRacing wrote:

X class is for the teams that think outside the box! Or should I say they take the box and put wheels on it. This class is for cars that would never pass the legal test by any Police, Highway Patrol or Border Police in any of the 50 states.

I'm not sure Jay would agree with this statement.  The Model T is street legal and street driven, and explicitly called out in the X-class rules.

Scott

We have CA plates and a current registration on the Hamster too...

  • Registered: 2010-03-08
  • Posts: 420

Re: X Class observations

We, on the other hand, won't be street registering Balto in this state any time soon.

I don't think a SHO Miata would wind up in X.  Sounds like a class A car to me.  It is important to distinguish between what you'd like to see happen and what is likely to happen.

Scott

  • gunn
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  • Registered: 2010-12-18
  • Posts: 1,011

Re: X Class observations

squirrelly_z600 wrote:
hoverducky wrote:
Bender/StickFigureRacing wrote:

X class is for the teams that think outside the box! Or should I say they take the box and put wheels on it. This class is for cars that would never pass the legal test by any Police, Highway Patrol or Border Police in any of the 50 states.

I'm not sure Jay would agree with this statement.  The Model T is street legal and street driven, and explicitly called out in the X-class rules.

Scott

We have CA plates and a current registration on the Hamster too...

Perhaps I'm biased here but I think there should be a (booby prize) class for cars that are driven to/from the track.

-g

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  • From: WOOTville USA
  • Registered: 2009-05-06
  • Posts: 2,415

Re: X Class observations

gunn wrote:

Perhaps I'm biased here but I think there should be a (booby prize) class for cars that are driven to/from the track.

-g

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  • dsycks
  • dsycks
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  • From: Logan Ohio
  • Registered: 2011-02-04
  • Posts: 1,798

Re: X Class observations

As a person who ran his mouth a lot in the X-Class debate, I am also a little confused about the classing of cars for this race.

With that said, I will stand beside what my main point has been and that is that we should in fact give some credit and trust to the folks who put this race on as they do care to do right by the series.

I would love more insight and to have a clearer understanding of how this is all going to develop but that should come in time.

Congrats to Eyesore as they and a few other teams set the gold standard for Lemons greatness of the go fast variety and they should be lauded for that.

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  • Spank
  • Utter Madman
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  • From: Escondido, CA
  • Registered: 2009-06-10
  • Posts: 5,864

Re: X Class observations

Whining got them the choice: 50 laps and A class, or no laps and X class.. They chose X class.

Don't fuck with Jay.

And more importantly, don't whine to him.

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  • From: Iowa
  • Registered: 2010-04-20
  • Posts: 2,660

Re: X Class observations

Lots of whining in here. smile 

The arbitrary nature of X-class is absolutely what was intended (or so I suspect).  If they laid out the rules like NASA, people would be pushing it to the ragged edge.  Suddenly, everyone is taking it too seriously.  Absolutely the opposite of what I think Jay really wants. 

He wants people to be rediculous, race "it" hard, and be ok with getting an arbitrary result.  As soon as there are measureable outcomes (outside of overall on laps, first in A, B and C) people get overly concerned about winning.  This tends to result in AssHatitis.   

I suspect there are also "suits" managing the cost of insurance that get their panties in a bind when JoeBob welds together parts that were never meant to be in the same garage let alone in a car raced on a track for 17+ hours.  Safety first!

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