The 24 Hours of Lemons Forums → Our Crappy Race → next year's schedule
Before I saw the schedule, I emailed Chumpcar to consider Nelson if anything fell through on their 2010 midwest schedule.... Now that Jay is going to Gingerman twice, John would be wise to drop that date & snap up the Ledges!!
If you wanna talk about safety, I've had more than one west coast guy say that Sears Point has written off more than a few cars...
Troy wrote:While a race like Lemons seems to draw a crowd and make money. I think most of the money goes to Lemons.
I believe Jay & Co. rent the track like anyone else would. The track makes their day/weekend rate + whatever they can make on providing works, concessions, camping fees or whatever.
At Nelson Ledges, track rental is $15,000 for the weekend. Throw in insurance and workers and things and you're probably talking $25,000 to put on the event.
That's optimistic on costs. Figure the 15K, plus another $56,000 in insurance. How? $90/driver X 5 drivers per team (might be low) and 125 teams. vola! Add in airfare for Jay, judges, equipment, etc, wages for said folks, and tent rental, food, prize money and extas and you're looking at another $20,000 perhaps. So now we are looking at bills totaling $91,000. With 125 teams paying (assuming 5 drivers) $1200 each, the variable profit is still $150,000 - $91,000 = $59,000. Not bad! Then you have general costs, website, attorneys, umbrella liabilty and other insurance costs, and all the other fixed costs. Still, a fantastic enterprise. If I was Jay I'd be doing as many races as I possibly could do and expect at least a break even turnout. His schedule for 2010 reflects good business planning. It also reflects that he is optimistic he'll get 100 + cars and can afford to get better tracks, hence Summit Point, etc.
Troy's had a bug up his ass since the first Houston Race about how much money Jay is raking in and sending to the Cayman Islands.
Remember, Nelson Ledges was our first race with over 100 cars.
Troy is also forgetting the $1200 we spend on spray paint per year.
Nelson was simply awesome. The track workers and Scot, Bryan, Kerrie were incredibly helpful. The corner workers and Lemons judges took no shit and called what they saw. Hats off to everyone involved. I felt relatively safe in our car (#26 Black Alfa) and took my lumps like everyone else. There were a lot of experienced drivers out there (some not so experienced as well) but the universal truth about behavior is you get what you expect from people. If you expect a lot you will get a lot. And for the ones that don't get it we have black flags, peoples curses and other avenues. I thought the level of driving was way better than the Lemons New England events, especially considering there were more than double the amount of cars.
I really love the Lemons series and have had a lot of fun in it so far. The craziness and funny stuff is great. But the 24 hour enduro at Nelson Ledges was really a whole nother ballgame. Challenging, fun and a hell of a acomplishment to finish and even a bigger acomplishment to finish well. If the Lemons series does not go back there I would love to run in the longest day or any other enduro events at the track. I think we could work out the tech and other issues.
But before anyone gets there panties in a bunch lets all take a breather and remember this is Jays party and we are all geusts. I am assuming he might add some dates as tracks make up their 2010 schedules. But hey there are an awful lot of dates on the 2010 schedule. So lets quit the bitching and fire up that piece of crap truck and trailer and get that crapcan rolling to one of the dates already booked.
Troy's had a bug up his ass since the first Houston Race about how much money Jay is raking in and sending to the Cayman Islands.
Remember, Nelson Ledges was our first race with over 100 cars.
Troy is also forgetting the $1200 we spend on spray paint per year.
yeah, i doubt anyone is getting rich off Lemons. however, i'm sure it is a lot of work (but probably better than most jobs), and people deserve to get paid for their time.
remember this is Jays party and we are all geusts.
i wouldn't go that far. i don't charge my guests $500/car and $100/person to come to my parties (though my parties admittedly are not as much fun as Lemons races). He's not doing this out of the goodness of his heart, or because we are just that much damn fun to hang out with.
Jay is selling a product, and we are his customers. so far i've been damn happy with what i've bought, but that doesn't mean we can't offer opinions about the product. if some people think that the product isn't worth the price, they are free to find somewhere else to race $500 cars.
Edit: BTW, i would certainly be in for another NL event. that was the best one yet.
+1 for liking Lamest Day and wanting another.
Troy is also forgetting the $1200 we spend on spray paint per year.
Remember, the gold paint gives the best buzz
Judge Jonny wrote:Troy is also forgetting the $1200 we spend on spray paint per year.
Remember, the gold paint gives the best buzz
Duh.
From my recent Facebook post: Nelson was a tough call--we ultimately had to decide between maximizing our exposure in Illinois and Michigan or making a return to Nelson. We realize that there are several teams that are actually closer to Nelson, but we're hoping that a move to Gingerman and Autobahn (which are also more modern facilities with more modern safety equipment) will be a net gain in terms of team accessibility.
Curious, what is a regular # of entrant requests for a Lemons race? How many were there for NL? And how many of those were simply because it was a true 24hr race?
Doing Gingerman twice vs. one event at Gingerman and one at Nelson Ledges doesn't seem logical. 1/2 the teams you had at Nelson Ledges were from east of there. For example, from Philly I strongly doubt I'll go to either race at Gingerman and definitely not Autobahn, but I would have gone back to Nelson ledges. Throw in that you had 175 applicants for NL and it just seems like a bad decision to not go back there ONCE. It wasn't an either or decision; you shunned it basically three times. Your call, your game, no worries here, life is good. It's all just my opinion.
I was happy to see Gingerman added, but it really surprised me to see two events the first year there. NL is now a proven awesome track, but Gingerman is still an unknown for crapcans and the craziness that is Lemons. Gingerman is closer than NL, but given the choice, I'd take NL again. It has a lot of history and charm. Gingerman is a nice, easy track, but it's a brake eater which could lead to ugly crashes once brakes get hot and fade.
I love Lemons and will go wherever there are races within reasonable distance, but please think about putting NL back on the schedule in 2011.
for the last two years even when money was tight I always made sure to attend the true 24h event in the mid-west. it just feels more like the superbowl of the whole event calender. Now with it being in Reno I'm not feeling a trip through Kansas in my future. I agree with Jer though. Gingerman is actually closer to me but I liked the history and character of the Ledges.
Doing Gingerman twice vs. one event at Gingerman and one at Nelson Ledges doesn't seem logical. 1/2 the teams you had at Nelson Ledges were from east of there. For example, from Philly I strongly doubt I'll go to either race at Gingerman and definitely not Autobahn, but I would have gone back to Nelson ledges. Throw in that you had 175 applicants for NL and it just seems like a bad decision to not go back there ONCE. It wasn't an either or decision; you shunned it basically three times. Your call, your game, no worries here, life is good. It's all just my opinion.
I hear you Jer, and we certainly hope that you'd be willing to tack a few hours on to your tow to try out one of the new venues. Like I said, on balance, we hope this will be an improvement for most teams--but we do realize that a few guys will be nostalgic about the old spots. All I can say is don't knock it 'til you've tried it.
Hey, I'm jst thrilled to have an event at Summit Point! Gingerman will be a reach for me bt is remotely possible.
for the last two years even when money was tight I always made sure to attend the true 24h event in the mid-west. it just feels more like the superbowl of the whole event calender. Now with it being in Reno I'm not feeling a trip through Kansas in my future. I agree with Jer though. Gingerman is actually closer to me but I liked the history and character of the Ledges.
You all need to drink a big fucking glass of Rule 2.4.
Jesus. 23 races isn't good enough? Should we call the whambulance?
The staff knows how to deal with endurance racing.
and that's a HUGE asset
Exactly.
Is it true that a knock on Nelson's was safety? If so, then how can Summit Point be considered safer? Give me big old piles of tires any day!!
I'm not knocking it because it's my favorite track, but Sears point is going to be crazy.
What's the Over/Under on crapcans in concrete walls?
Jer wrote:Doing Gingerman twice vs. one event at Gingerman and one at Nelson Ledges doesn't seem logical. 1/2 the teams you had at Nelson Ledges were from east of there. For example, from Philly I strongly doubt I'll go to either race at Gingerman and definitely not Autobahn, but I would have gone back to Nelson ledges. Throw in that you had 175 applicants for NL and it just seems like a bad decision to not go back there ONCE. It wasn't an either or decision; you shunned it basically three times. Your call, your game, no worries here, life is good. It's all just my opinion.
I hear you Jer, and we certainly hope that you'd be willing to tack a few hours on to your tow to try out one of the new venues. Like I said, on balance, we hope this will be an improvement for most teams--but we do realize that a few guys will be nostalgic about the old spots. All I can say is don't knock it 'til you've tried it.
I've tried 'em... Gingerman is 2 hours closer & Autobahn is a wash... but I'd drive 5 hours past both of them to go back to Nelson, 24 hour or not. Doing Gingerman twice is just mind boggling to me, but maybe it's more along the lines of Kershaw. (I've never been there) Really, the only place anyone could get into trouble is in the last turn coming onto the front straight. I consider the track boring & mickey mouse, but a brake failure coming into the last turn would be huge. Depending on what my team wants to do, we may skip the local races & maybe do Summit Point or MAM, since I've never been there....
Eric
Spud & Steve W.,
I'm guessing Summit Point & Sears Point are considered safe because Lemons has never been there. But as you've both stated, both have written off their share of good cars & both will be interesting to see how the noobs fare. I'm sure Jay will suffer the same anxiety over those weekends that he apparently had during the Lamest Day....
John will suffer the same anxiety if Chumpcar makes it to some of the "real" race tracks on their schedule.
Once the drivers in these series have experienced tracks with a "pucker factor", it's gonna take an organizer with cajones to give them what they want....
Let me concur. There is NO way a $500 car should EVER try Road Amercia, Lime Rock, Mosport l the old Road Atlanta (with the dip) or the full course at Watkins Glen. or MidOhio. People would die.
IMHO the only possible thing to hit at Nelsons is tires or the bridge. In nearly 30 years of going to the Ledges I have never seen anyone hit the bridge , then again I've never seen more than 65 cars on course at one time before either.
I wonder if we could get Jay's sphincter to relax if Nelson's laid some extra asphalt on the front straight to create a Watkins Glen 'bus stop' style chicane before the bridge?
Maybe next year we can add Mosport to the schedule. I hear that Turn 2 is a kitten.
So a race was full, actually had a record number of cars on the track, but the decision was made to move it to "increase exposure?"
Jay and Nick know what they're doing, a whole hell of a lot more than I do, but that doesn't mean it's not sad to see 'em drop NL.
The 24 Hours of Lemons Forums → Our Crappy Race → next year's schedule
