1 (edited by SforSancho 2012-07-20 12:27 AM)

Topic: Recovering from a Car Fire: What went wrong and how to fix it!

To: Amateur racing enthusiasts
From: Team OLD FARTS,

My intention with this thread is to share with my fellow racers our team's mistakes, and how to avoid them in the future. There are also some ideas on the recovery from such an event, and possibly some useful technical information. If I am wrong, feel free to correct me. All of our team members are amateur mechanics at best, and this is probably the most invasive repair we have ever attempted. Hopefully this information could save at least one team from a catastrophic, dangerous fire. Special thanks to the fire-fighting team at Buttonwillow for quick and effective extinguishing work.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/sforsancho/PorscheFireYoutube.png

Our Porsche 924 suffered a massive car fire at the 24 hours of Buttonwillow. 8 hours in our driver came in to swap drivers. When going out, our next driver, Karl,  noticed a few puffs of smoke when exiting the hot pit. Three turns later, Karl had no clutch, brakes, engine, and huge plumes of smoke escaping from the hood. You can see the video in this thread:

http://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/viewt … p?id=17063

We were doing quite well, having clawed our way from 40th to 10th, but there were a few minor quibbles: The battery indicator had been on even before the race began, and the starter was having a hard time firing the car up. We attributed this to some faulty Porsche wiring and concentrated on other things. During the race, we found the cause of our battery indicator light to be a loose ground wire, but after that we still needed to push start the car. Once going, besides a difficult idle, the car seemed fine - so we ignored the starter problem. Then this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/sforsancho/IMG_0702.jpg

The fire started shortly after refueling, and melted the fuel and fuel return lines. When we pushed the car into our pit there was still fuel dripping out of these lines. This was an obvious effect of the fire, and one of the primary reasons it blazed for so long, but not a root cause. The Porsche 924/944 has a shared clutch/brake reservoir, which melted and resulted in loss of clutch and brakes simultaneously. A cursory glance shows no hope of recovery in the 16 hours of racing we have left. We call it a night

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/sforsancho/IMG_0705.jpg

Here she is the morning after we get back:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/sforsancho/IMG_1305-1.jpg

The back of the engine (Notice the fried fuel lines leading to the fuel rail) had the most damage. We had suspected a slightly leaky fuel rail before the race, but after welding two junkyard fuel rails and swapping in a third, there was no room in the budget or time to find another. The stock fuel rail had last us some 15+ races, but after some engine work a few races ago we couldn't seem to find a workable rail.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/sforsancho/IMG_1311-1.jpg

Gross!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/sforsancho/IMG_1341-1.jpg

Intake manifold disassembled. Removing brake/clutch components. Check out that oil filler cap!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/sforsancho/IMG_1352-1.jpg

We found THIS during the tear-down. What this is, folks, is the line to the emissions control charcoal canister. To those of you unfamiliar with the device, it is a canister installed on late-model vehicles (relatively - our Porsche is a 1987 model) that captures excess fuel vapor from the fuel tank and stores it inside charcoal pellets until the engine is sufficiently warm, then the canister is redirected for burning in the engine. That's all fine and well, but what this means is that there is a third line from the fuel tank that channels all excess vapors through this hose. We pulled the canister almost from the very beginning, sometime around 2009 I suspect, for weight savings. At one point in the past, perhaps four races ago, this line was pulled out of its location in the fender well, and left venting in the engine bay, an oversight from our lack of understanding of what the charcoal canister actually did. You can see in the picture the grommet where this hose passed into the left front fender and vented these fumes harmlessly into the whirlpool of air in the fender well. This innocuous hose, when yanked out of the fender, was venting highly flammable fuel vapor straight from the fuel tank into our engine bay. How we got so far without catastrophic failure I don't know, but perhaps we needed a better spark.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/sforsancho/IMG_1357-1.jpg

Much further down the car, we find the charred remains of the fuel vapor line that once led to the charcoal canister. The fire burned this hose far further from the engine than anything else; this shot is right below the rear seats.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/sforsancho/IMG_1534-1.jpg

More tear-down. We labeled all of the harness wires, while still connected to the sensors, with blue painters tape.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/sforsancho/IMG_1361-1.jpg

Now, for no reason, my cat:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/sforsancho/IMG_1372-1.jpg

Disconnecting the wiring harness from the inside. Turns out we were quite lucky, and the main harness escaped nearly unscathed. The ECU harness was a different story. Check out the gnarly burn marks two pictures down.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/sforsancho/IMG_1378-1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/sforsancho/IMG_1385-1.jpg

The engine-less donor car that contributed its life so that ours may have a new set of arteries.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/sforsancho/IMG_1408-1.jpg

Cleaning the engine bay so that we can more accurately track down leaks in the future:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/sforsancho/IMG_1413-1.jpg

Pairing up components with that of the parts car. We got quite lucky in that we needed nearly nothing from expensive Porsche dismantlers, save a new dipstick. Check out that oil filler unit (The unit has a combined Air-Oil Seperator).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/sforsancho/IMG_1417-1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/sforsancho/IMG_1419-1.jpg

Dismantling the engine bay harness and ah hah! We have our spark. This was the factory 4AWG wire that led from the battery to the starter motor. Somewhere along its length it had began to rub against the engine, and eventually reached copper-engine contact. We expect that this shorting was the spark for our fire.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/sforsancho/IMG_1433-1.jpg

A better view of the cable I'm talking about:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/sforsancho/IMG_1451-1.jpg

Whatever the firefighters use gets EVERYWHERE and is hard to clean off, especially with water. Here it got into our mostly sealed timing belt area.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/sforsancho/IMG_1438-1.jpg

Rebuilding:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/sforsancho/IMG_1519-1.jpg

Rebuild complete! 100+ man-hours later (A substantial portion mine) two and a half weeks after our fire we have a completely-assembled Porsche engine. But will it start?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/sforsancho/IMG_1543-1.jpg


Yes!

http://youtu.be/LSszGe1Vlx4

Boy, this journey caused a mess.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/sforsancho/IMG_1547-1.jpg

Conclusions:

We should have diagnosed our electrical problem from the start. Knowing about the battery indicator lights going into the race but not fixing them was a mistake, and having to push start the car AFTER fixing the ground mid-race and having good battery voltage should have set off alarm bells. Even the spark might not have been enough on its own, but we had a combination of a possibly leaking fuel rail that should have been addressed pre-race along with the fuel vapor hose leading straight into our engine bay, with its multitudinous places for possible ignition.

If you are stripping components out of your car for lightness, simplicity, or cleanliness, make sure you know the function of the components.. Our fire came from a desire to finish competitively, a misunderstanding of certain components of the engine emissions equipment, and some simple maintenance oversights.

Hope you enjoyed our thread and please, stay safe.

Regards,
Team OLD FARTS

Team OLD Farts
1987 Porsche 924 "Pac-Man"
1986 Audi 4000 Ghost 'Speedy'
1991 Audi 200 Ghost 'Clyde'

Re: Recovering from a Car Fire: What went wrong and how to fix it!

good writeup, and good info.

Our fire was caused by the (twice removed) previous owner installing hypereutectic pistons, when forged were needed.  Burned a hole right through #3 piston after approx 50 hours of abuse.

Moral of our story:  Even though it has been rebuilt, this doesn't mean it's been done correctly

Silent But Deadly Racing-  Ricky Bobby's Laughing Clown Malt Liquor Thunderbird , Datsun 510, 87 Mustang (The Race Team Formerly Known as Prince), 72 Pinto Squire waggy, Parnelli Jones 67 Galaxie, Turbo Coupe Surf wagon.(The Surfin Bird), Squatting Dogs In Tracksuits,  Space Pants!  Roy Fuckin Kent and The tribute to a tribute to a tribute THUNDERBIRD/ SUNDAHBADOH!

Re: Recovering from a Car Fire: What went wrong and how to fix it!

Experience gained or should I say advice for any team that had a dry chemical fire extinguisher used on their car, if possible find out what type of powder was used and quickly research how to get it cleaned up before the damage takes hold in your relay-fuse box. Hint, it aint water, that makes things worse sad

A month after a crash and fire (when I was recovered enough to work) it was discovered purple K fire extinguisher hates and destroys by corrosion EVERYTHING electricity touches, as in a unmolested 6 foot piece of wire cut in the middle will show all the copper is now black, kind of like a boat that has sunk in salt water, all the computers junk, harnesses  junk and even the recycled big battery kill switch got  flaky.

Homestead Chump 5th-Sebring 6th-PBIR Lemons 9th - Charlotte Chump  CrashnBurn 9th
Sebring 6th again -NOLA Chump 1st -PBIR Chump Trans Fail 16th
Daytona 11th - Sebring 6th - Atlanta Motor Speedway 2nd - Road Atlanta Trans Fail 61st-Road Atlanta 5th
Daytona 13th - Charlotte 9th - Sebring 2nd-Charlotte 25th broken brakes - Road Atlanta 14 10th-Daytona 14  58th- Humid TT 19th Judges' Choice!

Re: Recovering from a Car Fire: What went wrong and how to fix it!

Great write up. 

Because shop cat

Bloomington, IN
We'll bring Beer!  Motorsports
Team Fiery Death! #0 2009 Lamest Day(65th), 2010 American Irony(24th), 2010 Detroit Bull(4th),2012 Capitol Offense (8th) 2012 American Irony (11 th), 2013 Capitol Offense (3rd) 2013 Chubba Chedder (4th, Judge Choice!) Now sadly part of a scrap pile. 
Toothless Racing Deadbeats #110 2011 Summit Point (61st) Currently being rebuilt into the new car!

Re: Recovering from a Car Fire: What went wrong and how to fix it!

the one thing that struck me as odd was that you thought you had a leaky fuel rail, but left it. i thought fuel was a safety item, and leaky systems get you kicked off the track. I really doubt that going over the budget for the sake of fixing that would have got you in trouble with the judges.


otherwise great write up, and nicely done getting it rebuilt.

20+ Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Abandoned E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: Recovering from a Car Fire: What went wrong and how to fix it!

Thanks for the support. Shop cat is adorable.

Team Infinniti wrote:

Experience gained or should I say advice for any team that had a dry chemical fire extinguisher used on their car, if possible find out what type of powder was used and quickly research how to get it cleaned up before the damage takes hold in your relay-fuse box. Hint, it aint water, that makes things worse sad

This is very interesting and pertinent to me, because while it appears that the firefighters used water, the corner worker used a chemical fire extinguisher. I cleaned most of it, but left the whitish-yellow residue in the battery compartment (the battery has been relocated, only a bus bar there now), and the results were an incredible amount of surface rust after two weeks. Luckily the relay and fuse box is under the steering column in the 924/944, but I will take them all out and carefully clean the pin connectors

Here is what the powder looked like. What color was the Purple K residue?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/sforsancho/IMG_1319.jpg

Here is a shot of the rust (mostly cleaned up) in the battery compartment. The flash makes it look less so, but that brown is a deep, rusty color.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/sforsancho/IMG_1532.jpg

TheEngineer wrote:

the one thing that struck me as odd was that you thought you had a leaky fuel rail, but left it. i thought fuel was a safety item, and leaky systems get you kicked off the track. I really doubt that going over the budget for the sake of fixing that would have got you in trouble with the judges.

It was more of a suspicion. Just a few weeks before the race we found out that the original rail was leaking, so we had it welded by a reputable Porsche shop. The fuel rail is such thin wall material that it just leaked more - so we took the rail from our parts car, and when that leaked, had it welded by the same shop. That ended up in a smaller, but still present leak. We were running out of time, so shortly before the race we 'splurged' on a used unit from a dismantler, which was supposed to cure all of our problems. Aftermarket fuel rails are very expensive for the 924/944 and swapping in more stock units seemed like a dead end. I wish we had been more careful.

I couldn't prove to you now whether the rail leaked or not - I wish I could - but we had no obvious liquid evidence, so we disregarded the slight fuel smell coming from the engine bay. Whether that was from the fuel vapor hose or a leaky rail/injector, we will never know.

Team OLD Farts
1987 Porsche 924 "Pac-Man"
1986 Audi 4000 Ghost 'Speedy'
1991 Audi 200 Ghost 'Clyde'

Re: Recovering from a Car Fire: What went wrong and how to fix it!

Great job on the repairs!  I was sad to see the car burned at the track, but glad that nobody was hurt.

Team Co-Craptain, Los Cerdos Voladores
Plymouth Neon
Yeah, we're horrible...but we're LEAST Horrible

Re: Recovering from a Car Fire: What went wrong and how to fix it!

SforSancho wrote:

It was more of a suspicion. Just a few weeks before the race we found out that the original rail was leaking, so we had it welded by a reputable Porsche shop. The fuel rail is such thin wall material that it just leaked more - so we took the rail from our parts car, and when that leaked, had it welded by the same shop. That ended up in a smaller, but still present leak. We were running out of time, so shortly before the race we 'splurged' on a used unit from a dismantler, which was supposed to cure all of our problems. Aftermarket fuel rails are very expensive for the 924/944 and swapping in more stock units seemed like a dead end. I wish we had been more careful.

I couldn't prove to you now whether the rail leaked or not - I wish I could - but we had no obvious liquid evidence, so we disregarded the slight fuel smell coming from the engine bay. Whether that was from the fuel vapor hose or a leaky rail/injector, we will never know.

yea, i know all about the Porsche tax. I used to own a 924S. If i still had parts i'd send you another rail as a spare, but all my parts went to a local team running a 924s.

Hope you have better luck in future races, but sounds like you guys learned some good lessons.

20+ Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Abandoned E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: Recovering from a Car Fire: What went wrong and how to fix it!

Thanks for posting up your post-mortem. Since you brought the 924S back from the dead, will there be a Lazarus or Frankenstein theme in your future? smile

ONSET/Tetanus Racing, est. 2008.
Guest drives: NSF, Rocket Surgery, Property Devaluation, Terminally Confused, Team Sputnik, The Syndicate, Pit Crew Revenge, Spank, Hella Shitty, Sir Jackie Stewart's Coin Purse, Nine Finger Drifters, Salty Thunder, Panting Polar Bear, Vistabeam, Hangar 13, and Escape Velocity.
74 races so far.

Re: Recovering from a Car Fire: What went wrong and how to fix it!

A pheonix theme might be appropriate

Re: Recovering from a Car Fire: What went wrong and how to fix it!

Thanks for the write-up.

Your advice, to not ignore the symptoms that seem minor because they often point to something big getting ready to announce its retirement from racing. We've dealt with a number of these and sometimes we have been lucky and sometimes smart.

1. Symptom: loosing power in left-hand turns. Cause: top of carburetor coming lose in our first race. Potential disaster: the header is directly below the carburetor. The race ended before something bad happened. After that race we fixed a few things then drove the car to and from Monterey with no problem. The problem returned at an autoX. Every screw on the top of the carburetor was so loose that the top rattled.

2. Symptom: smelled gas at BW last year. Figured it was another car, but the smell did not go away. Started loosing power in the long straights. Pitted, suspecting a repeat of the earlier problem, but it was worse. The fuel pump had a hole worn through it. We replaced it and finished the trace. Cause: Back at home we discovered that the second fuel pump was damaged and about to fail. During a race you don't think to dig deeper for the root cause. Then we discovered that our motor mounts had been broken when we got hit. This motor is too heavy and too weak to make that obvious.

3. Slight pull to the right on initial braking. Monitored the situation, but the head gasket problem ended our race at 11:30 PM. Back at home, pulling the motor, we discovered that the bolt holding the upper a-arm in placed had backed out and was close to coming out.

We've had other adventures like these that did not endanger anyone, but we have learned through it all to not only fix the problem but to stick with it to find out how and why it developed.

Re: Recovering from a Car Fire: What went wrong and how to fix it!

Sorry to hear about your fire but glad everyone was ok.

One of my peeves is cars with a fuel pump on/off switch. Yeah if you shut the pump switch off or the kill switch off it will stop if wired correctly. When it's on fire and you're doing the team America world police signal you're not thinking about turning things off so it's a VERY bad idea. Leaving the ecu controlling the fuel pump is a very good idea. If you feel the need to be able to prime it add an on (on) switch and leave the on as ecu control and the momentary on as prime. That way when the engine dies the fuel pump goes off.

I'm not posting this saying you did anything wrong, just hoping to get people to think twice about rewiring the fuel pump the easy way. If your pump was wired to an on switch and forgotten this could have been much much worse.

I'll get off the soap box now, just figured it was a good spot to add my 2 cents about a dangerous common shortcut.

-Killer B's (as in rally) '84 4000Q 4.2V8. Audis never win?

Re: Recovering from a Car Fire: What went wrong and how to fix it!

After our fuel pump incident at BW we added a manual cutoff valve to our fuel system. It is located back at the tank. At BW we didn't have a way to stop the fuel flow other that putting a finger on the hole while unbolting the pump, then sticking a screw driver in the hose once the pump was out.

We had already purchased two additional fire extinguishers, inspired by the small paddock fire at Skankaway. We bought then not just for dealing with our problems but also to be able to assist our paddock neighbors.

Re: Recovering from a Car Fire: What went wrong and how to fix it!

SforSancho wrote:

(the battery has been relocated, only a bus bar there now)

Great & very instructive write-up. Please make sure to cover all those bus bar-related electrical connections so that something can't fall on them and cause a short. You were probably going to do this anyway, but that's a surefire fail going through tech.

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.

Re: Recovering from a Car Fire: What went wrong and how to fix it!

Forget, but we also put a 200A fuse in that battery cable, close to the battery, in case the cable shorts due to wear of gets pinched in a wreck. Our battery is now in the back of the car so we are running a lot of #4 cable. The alternator output is fused at 150A and that fuse is near the alternator.

These old cars didn't have such things in them when they were build. Opel headlight shorts have burned up more than a few GTs.

Re: Recovering from a Car Fire: What went wrong and how to fix it!

Great writeup, and glad no one was hurt!

About fusing these old cars: my 1974 Jensen Healey had a whopping total of 3 fuses and one of those is a 50 amp slow blow. I added two ATC fuse blocks and split off several functions from the original setup to lessen the chance of electrical fires. You guys running older cars really need to look into this type of thing, particularly if you add an electric fuel pump. It's OK to have a separate switch but it also needs to quit when the main power is cut.  That's how my hillclimb car is done.

My advice (worth what you pay for it): if there is a circuit you won't be using, cut it off from the fuse block.

Philosophy of life: old age and treachery will ALWAYS overcome youth, enthusiasm and cash. General smartass know it all beer swilling ne'er do well. Avoid eye contact with this person, best avoided completely. 2008 Animal House Racing CMP 'Most Likely To Leave In An Ambulance' 2009 Blind Rodent Racing CMP 2010 Team Galileo CMP 2011 Roundhouse Kick Racing CMP 2012 Road Kill Grill Racing CMP (x2)

Re: Recovering from a Car Fire: What went wrong and how to fix it!

If you're going to be running lots of heavy gauge cable, opting for welding cable(fine strand) over the coarse strand stuff, it carries more amperage at lower reisistance.  S/F....Ken M

Re: Recovering from a Car Fire: What went wrong and how to fix it!

Thanks for the well wishes everyone. Our team is suffering now from nothing other than a bruised ego and a lack of sleep!

jrbe wrote:

One of my peeves is cars with a fuel pump on/off switch. Yeah if you shut the pump switch off or the kill switch off it will stop if wired correctly..

The kill switch is wired so that power to the fuse block I just added is cut whenever the kill switch is off. ECU still controls the fuel pump! Thanks for posting your warning, however, as I was considering adding a switched on-off for the fuel pump.

Mulry wrote:

Please make sure to cover all those bus bar-related electrical connections so that something can't fall on them and cause a short. You were probably going to do this anyway, but that's a surefire fail going through tech.

The battery has been relocated for several races now (to a vented aluminum box next to the driver, I had it OK'd by Lemons tech as a safety item!) We've covered it with electrical tape in the past, but I'm considering a plastic piece spanning across the two main posts to 'armor' it against a fall, and perhaps a few shots of bus-bar electrical spray.

m610 wrote:

pper a-arm in placed had backed out and was close to coming out.

We've had other adventures like these that did not endanger anyone, but we have learned through it all to not only fix the problem but to stick with it to find out how and why it developed.

We've been working on vehicle specific checklists with known recurring issues and keeping track of old problems. It has been greatly beneficial for us to not revisit old problems, but new ones always pop up!

Team OLD Farts
1987 Porsche 924 "Pac-Man"
1986 Audi 4000 Ghost 'Speedy'
1991 Audi 200 Ghost 'Clyde'

Re: Recovering from a Car Fire: What went wrong and how to fix it!

Were you guys worried about the supposed hydrofluoric acid danger in dismantling a burned engine?  I hear that seals that are made of fluoroelastomer can decompose to this in an engine fire, and its some really nasty stuff if you come in contact with it

Re: Recovering from a Car Fire: What went wrong and how to fix it!

An excellent read, thanks for sharing.  The '91 SE-R is still in storage after its fire at MSR Houston in Sept. '11 (still looking for any fire pics if anyone has them!), ours was an oil related issue, causing a rod to go through the block, bumping oil straight onto the exhaust manifold.  Instant fireball.

Singed harnesses, melted in a few places, master cylinder leaking (likely melted), other unknown bits.  We're still (sort of) looking for a new engine to drop in, but it's proving hard to get the band back together...

I certainly understand that in the heat of the race, if you can get the car running, it seems like a good idea at the time, but investigating an electrical problem is normally a good idea, if you've got someone good with wiring handy.  A bad ground is one thing, but wires shorting out is going to kill things in short order, so to speak.

Pucker Factor Racing - Gator-O-Rama, Feb '11, Yee-Haw It's Lemons Texas!, Oct '11
Scuderia Ignorante - Yee-Haw, It's Lemons Texas, Feb '12 (As seen in Car & Driver), Gator-O-Rama, Sept '13