build what you can't buy (Page 1 of 2)

WOOT... good job.

it's not really as much as it looks like, but yeah, i'll burn a roll of mig wire without even trying.

i've always heard that the weld is strongest part, so i just figure....if i build the whole thing from weld, it'll never fail.

Are you sure that a tie rod end is going to be heavy duty enough to replace a ball joint? I also have doubt that the threaded shaft of the tie rod is up to the task of handling ball joint duty. Another possible problem is the "whopping $4" new Chinese replacement tie rod end. I have seen Chinese full size ball joint fail. Your tie rod end is only about half the size of that. There are mass-produced weld in threaded collars that are available at most true racing supply houses that will except a popular Chrysler screw in ball joint. Almost any auto supply house stocks this ball joint on the shelf. If you are interested I'll look and give you the Moog part number. I can also direct you to a supplier of the collars. Not trying to criticize your hard work, but just trying to point out some possible short comings of the design.

True, but weld is also brittle. It can shatter instead of bending. Murphy's law will come into play and it could shatter at a most bad time. Again, I am not trying to criticize you. Just trying to point out some possible areas to think about.

yes, if it's thck wall enough, and if we just bend a little section at a time. we'll not be using that for our cage, tho....just some of our other bracing.

these civics are mcpherson cars, so all the weight of the chassis is on the kunckles; the lower control arm is little more than a locator. this car came with this size ball joint from the factory, and i've pulled hundreds of pounds out of it, putting even less stress on the component.

VWs (sand buggies, rock crawlers and everything else you can make from them) bend the tie rod tubes before they bend the threaded shaft. i'm figuring that trend will attempt to continue

we'll be flogging the crap out of this car before our shot at Lemons, so we'll discover if china's most industrious 8 year olds can make a good ball joint or not. if not, we'll have to bump up to the german version

no popular Chrysler screw in ball joint (especially ones favored by true racers) is going to fit in the tapers of our civic's front knuckles. having an indestructible part that won't fit in the car does us little good.

i don't know how many chryslers use that balljoint, and how many years they were in production, but i have a nagging belief that VW's production numbers surpass them.  (these tie rod ends were used in all the balljoint beetles, 1968 - june 2003).

we've got a real race car shop about a mile from my lean-to, they've got all the high dollar race car parts i could want for my $500 car.

thanks for the insights, i'm sure our testing process will prove something.. if my plan fails, we'll use yours.

man, i wish al gore could have invented sarcasm tags when he invested the internet.

i looked at a few of the drop in options, but most of the drop ins would require us killing the stock arm to get old one out (being welded in and all). also, the reason honda welded them in the first place is due to clearance issues. a drop in wants a sleeve, and a sleeve wants to be where the brake rotor already is.

swapping in arms from some other car was an option as well (looked 3rd gen civic arms pretty closely), but the 2nd gen civic uses its sway bar as a radius rod (that's the big hole in the middle of the arm). nothing from the last 20 years does that, so anything we found that might work is likely going to have the same issues we already have.

....and we still run into the ball joint size issue. from 84 on, honda uses a larger lower balljoint than they did in the second gens. my lower is the same size as all the uppers from 88 on.  (mostly, because the lower isn't a weight bearing joint in this car)

this board doesn't have a multi-quote function....and i hit submit instead of back, when i was collecting posts.

That's what I figured but I still have to drop the shit-factor on ya... NO ONE IS IMMUNE!!!

Maybe you can't get them from the dealer, but www.RockAuto.com has them available and you can choose between Raybestos, Moog, and ACDelco.

A 2nd-gen Civic in Lemons? Hooray!

thanks, i'll keep them in mind.  tho i'm still not hip on dropping $100 plus on control arms.

on the other hand, i'm not so sure about their catalog accuracy.

along with lower control arms they offer upper ball joints for my car (which is a neat trick for a McPherson strut car).

I've dealt with majestic before. they only have what they can get from honda...and they take two weeks at a minimum.

at the same time, they offer 30% off MSRP, while i can get 10% over cost at my local dealer.

i'm printing this out for BS-tech.

stay away from the Oklahoma County Sherriff's training facility the second weekend of every month, and you should be OK.

little bit of hyperbole there, don't you think? how many lower ball joints have failed in Lemons history? how many people have died as a result?

i'm not sure where you think this deadly failure point is going to manifest itself. your tone suggests that you've had these parts fail before on some lighter duty. could you elaborate?

i've been working for almost 10 years at a shop that's been selling these parts for 45 years....i'll believe that history over a guy's opinion on the interwebnet.

more hyperbole.

this tie rod end is the same size as the stock piece. probably damned similar to a joint i'd find in one of those rock auto arms above....

why is my use wrong, and their use right?

that's why i repeatedly note 'on this car', referring to the fact that this car weighs almost nothing. i've been hacking at suspensions for going on 20 years now. if someone reads these posts and thinks, "i'm gonna try that on my land barge" there's not much i can do to talk them out of it.

at best, all i can do is what others in this thread have tired to do....but i'll attempt to keep the hyperbole to a minimum and make logically based arguments. unless someone can show me something that suggests the ball/taper in this tierod is structurally inferior to the exact same size ball/taper that came with the car and serviced it for 30 years....or if someone can show me something that suggests the 5/8" rod will fail where the 16ga pressed steel would not...then i might reconsider my concept.

like i've said, we're gonna try it. at worst, we break something in a controlled environment, which is kinda to be expected when prepping for a race, especially Lemons. if something breaks, we'll decide on an different course of action. back to stock, ream the kuckles and pray i can cram a bigger ball joint in there, whatever.

in any event, i'll be sure to get pics and video of the potential carnage (and the resulting ambulance/hearse ride).

1) Car companies make two seperate parts, ball joints & tie rod ends, for a reason. If they were interchangeable for fit form and function they would make just one part number not two.

2) Companies make real race car ball joints for a reason.  They don't sell tie rod ends as ball joints.
Racers are cheap by nature. If ths little tie rod / ball joint swap was doable other racers would have already tried it and it would be common practice.

3) Yes your car may be lighter than stock but that does not mean that your backyard engineering is up to the loads & stresses of racing a crapcan. And no, there is no way of calculating what strength is needed.

4) Please tell me you will be putting lots of solo test miles on a track (preferrably with a driver with no dependents) before you competition debut.

5) Finally  - please tell me that you are a west coast team thus lettiing me sleep again knowing that you are not likely to crash into me (back here on the east coast) when you reach the limits of the design.

I'm not critisizing your attempt to make a new control arm.  I am just VERY skeptical about your choice of parts.  Please get a real ball joint.  Your life , hell your car, is worth more than $4.00.

Spud