The 24 Hours of Lemons Forums → Lemons Tech → Riddle me dry sump!
So, who has ideas on how to make Lemons grade dry sump oiling systems?
Use smog pumps as scavengers? Used nascar bits? Break into the local speed shop at 3am?
As food for thought I will just leave this right here...
http://www.toymods.org.au/forums/tech-c … ction.html
Observation - There used to be an automaker involved in Indy cars that had all kinds of reliability problems. The firm that built the engines also made their own dry sump system. By the time the car made it's first pit stop every race, the oil pressure was such that the oil light was flickering during the stop. Soon afterwards there was a hole the size of your head in the side of the engine. They tried increasing the pressure which just raised the oil temp causing the side effect of lower oil pressure but still the big boom. These guys used aluminum pressure housings when just about every other endurance racing engines used steel ones. I'm thinking that a design that works for sprint races or drifting may not work so well for longer races.
What year did Pcars start showing up with dry sumps and did they all have they? Lord knows there are plenty of them blowed up laying around that finding spare parts is far from impossible.
All 911's had them. Air cooled ones at least, dunno about the 996/7/boxster engine. There's your tank and lines but you still need a pump and pan.
Scavenger pump is what I need. Pan is easy enough.
Oops, I mean this is all just theory!
In the water-cooled 911s, only the GT3 has a dry sump.
I use these for my rear mount turbo's, so they can withstand the hot engine oil
http://www.ebay.com/itm/150768513335?it … mp;vxp=mtr
they have 1/2" JIC connections..
i don't know if they flow enough for a dry sump, if you want i can run one and time how long it pumps a quart of oil- it will be cold oil though, so you need to take viscosity into consideration...
Nice find Olaaf! Still a bit spendy but if one can find some gears and rig up something with a motor off a swimming pool pump and BAM!
Nice find Olaaf! Still a bit spendy but if one can find some gears and rig up something with a motor off a swimming pool pump and BAM!
well, you can also find hydraulic pump motors on ebay used. problem is most are 120 or 208, and the continuous duty cycle with hot oil will take some trial and error. retractable landing gear pumps from aviation might be a good search term.
this is the engine oil you are talking about, so a little extra cash and some redundancy might be called for...
Many old motorcycles (and harleys) use dry sump systems. Not sure if something like a Harley sportster would flow enough oil, but they are readily available:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/06-Harley-David … mp;vxp=mtr
My first question would be "Why do you think you need a dry sump?"
I may be shown wrong, but I'm of the anecdotally informed opinion that dry sump systems are for those occasions when you are trying to lower the motor in the car (no sump depth), when you're pulling 5g in corners, or for when you do something silly like run the motor upside down. Unless you're trying to make a motorcycle engine survive in lateral acceleration (try a deep sump first) you can probably achieve what you need with a pan redesign.
Sometimes idiots put motors from one car into another car that it was nit designed for nor that it works well with. Even if you find a pan that almost works it may be structural with oil passages built in that make a sheet metal pan a non option.
In short, a dry sump is not my only option but i one I want to explore prior to half assing something else. If I am going to half ass something I want it to be cutting edge halfassery!
...cutting edge halfassery!
Ladies and gentlemen, our new contender for the shortest, pithiest answer to the common question, "So, why do y'all like this Lemons stuff?"
dsycks wrote:...cutting edge halfassery!
Ladies and gentlemen, our new contender for the shortest, pithiest answer to the common question, "So, why do y'all like this Lemons stuff?"
Reminds me of a Top Gear bit:
James May: “This had never been done before?”
Richard Hammond: “No! We are, in fact, on the cutting edge of cocking about!”
Anyway, I would love to see a dry sump system that passes B.S. inspection.
drag racing swap meets are your friend. i have a 3 stage (2 in, 1 out) pump here i paid $10 for. no need to get ghetto on the pump.
Dear Marc... How much?
Dear Marc... How much?
i only have one. i'm holding onto it for a future project.
Naw, you need a 4 stage 3 in 1 out! Besides, you would rather build one out of gum wrappers and twist ties to make it a challenge. Lets not act like you won't.
one has raced in Lemons, as Mercedes ran them in there 6.9s
our 440 wouldnt have fit into our car with a full-depth pan, so we're running a dry sump. I tried cobbling something out of power steering pumps, but the volume on those isnt even close to what you would need. Then I realized that if you look in the right places, (CL, ebay sometimes) you can get a pump for pretty cheap. of course, there wasnt any money left over for the other parts of the system, so the pan is the stock pan, cut, hammered and welded to be more shallow, with some plumbing pipe to collect oil with. The oil tank is a 5-gallon cornelius keg, and the pulley is a couple of 9" diameter v-belt pulleys welded together. As you can see, there are no possible points of failure in this system.
I run a dry sump in my drag car and I'd strongly recommend you get a legit pump off racing junk or ebay or similar. There's always dirt track or drag stuff that's for sale cheap, mostly because it's marginal for putting on a $30K engine and risking driving over your crankshaft at 200mph. Obviously not an issue in a Lemons car;)
There's formerly bleeding edge stuff that's no longer supported that for sale cheap from companies like Hawk(Ed Pink used to but it's not worth the money). All the hoses, brackets and tanks you can ghetto rig, but the pump is pretty critical. With a welder, some pipe fittings and some sheet metal, you can go crazy on the stock pan without too much concern. Use a cogged belt and legit pullies, they don't need much tension and that makes your cobbled together brackets and such far less prone to failure; the price isn't that much usually. S/F....Ken M
just for example, here's a moroso unit for $200, you could probably get it for $150
Power steering pump. or pumps
When our Honda D16s were dying like fish in Midwestern streams, I tried to think of a way to dry sump. Power steering pumps are designed to pump oil, maybe not engine temperature hot oil, but pretty warm oil. They usually are included on most engines these days so you have a ready made mounting system that could be adapted to mounting lower on the engine. They already have the v-belt drive pulley. The Honda D15/D16 series engines had a real nice small pump that was mounted high on the engine. you might be able to fit a pair of these in on some engines.
the tough question is what flow rate vs RPM, and is it enough to keep up with the engine flow.
I had planed to pump up to a tank and ahve the tank gravity feed to the normal oil pump. I was going to go through the pan and plumb directly into the input, in place of the standard pickup screen. This seemed reasonably do-able on the D16.
I was going to fab a mount that had the pump at roughly the level of the oil pan, so I wasn't worried about how much head it could overcome.
we ended up going with an Accusump and a trap door baffled pan that seemed to solve the moving oil or foaming oil problems.
Power steering pump. or pumps
When our Honda D16s were dying like fish in Midwestern streams, I tried to think of a way to dry sump. Power steering pumps are designed to pump oil, maybe not engine temperature hot oil, but pretty warm oil. They usually are included on most engines these days so you have a ready made mounting system that could be adapted to mounting lower on the engine. They already have the v-belt drive pulley. The Honda D15/D16 series engines had a real nice small pump that was mounted high on the engine. you might be able to fit a pair of these in on some engines.
the tough question is what flow rate vs RPM, and is it enough to keep up with the engine flow.
I had planed to pump up to a tank and ahve the tank gravity feed to the normal oil pump. I was going to go through the pan and plumb directly into the input, in place of the standard pickup screen. This seemed reasonably do-able on the D16.I was going to fab a mount that had the pump at roughly the level of the oil pan, so I wasn't worried about how much head it could overcome.
we ended up going with an Accusump and a trap door baffled pan that seemed to solve the moving oil or foaming oil problems.
i tried this in the past. the power steering pump volume is actually quite low, but more importantly, they don't like pulling fluid up. it would constantly suck air and foam. that could be overcome with an even lower mount but just something to keep in mind.
You are looking at the wrong end of the pump. The idea is to draw the oil away from the spinnie bits which is why they use multi-stage pumps. You will note that the 4 stage pumps scavenge on 3 stages and 1 is pressure. They try to scavenge more than they pump. The oil tank is very important too. You want to have the oil hit the side of the tank and spin to the bottom so it separates out the air.
Margaritas make me read the title of this thread as "ride me dry sump", which is VERY disturbing.
Anyway, what cheseroo said. Plus, vacuum in your crankcase is a good thing.
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