Crazy Drivers and Dive Bombers_Just my opinion (Page 1 of 4)

Ok.

I'm still trying to figure out why the uber-slow 89ish Camry at Stafford (which I had lapped countless times) that was on my right and A WHOLE FRONT FENDER ahead of me (3 feet) tried to take the inside line into turn one, in the last few minutes of the race, while I was runnning in 10th place. He promptly spun himself out against my much heavier Lincoln. The was literally NO time to react, he was beside me, then just turned into me. I got black flagged and he didn't, even though it was clearly NOT my fault, and I never left the track. I can just hear the radio transmission now, by some track worker who caught the tail end of it:
"That blue Lincoln just spun out a car."

Mistakes happen, it's hard to catch it all, and the rule is "ANY CONTACT". Yeah, he shoulda been flagged INSTEAD of me, but shit happens. Luckily, the guest penalty judges recognized that A) It was the last few minutes of the race, and B) It was my first penalty. They told me say how sorry I was, so I said "I'm sorry I let that car ram me! It won't happen again, I swear!" Then I was sent back out. Pretty harmless as penalties go, but that 5 minutes could've cost us both 10th place and Least Horrible Yank Tank.

The point is, if you are way down in the standings, and a substantially faster car that's been in the top ten all weekend is directly beside you, DON'T EFFING CUT THEM OFF!

The problem is that if these guys have any experience, it's in sprint races. And therefore are not in the practice of letting people by - not understanding that it's an endurance race, which requires a completely different demeanor.

Rob - I usually agree with your posts

We were a mid-speed car (121hp mid-sized 80's sedan) that finished 20th. We got passed a lot.

I gave countless point-bys at NL (particularly in the last session when everyone went nuts), but, sheesh, I have my own race. I'm not coming off the gas to let a car by. This isn't lapping day, after all. You may not care whether I come in 20th or 30th, but I do because it is part of my fun. And, I usually have no idea where the fast cars are in the standings.

If the car behind me was still actually behind me at turn-in, I took the "racing line". Sorry, they'll have to wait another corner (or two) to get by me as their speed and skill allows. If they stuck their nose in, I gave them the apex but raced them around the outside (usually losing, depending upon the corner). If they are really faster, then they can pull me on the straight, get me under braking, take the inside line into the next corner or dart around me in the carousels/sweepers. I left room when I thought there might be a car to my side.

Blocking to me is weaving back and forth, right? That's uncool.

Am I wrong?

IMO - blocking is keeping a faster car behind you by whatever means.  The only time this is acceptable is when you are in a fight for position.  In any other situation, it is unsportmanlike.  These are endurance races.  Without live T&S and getting that information to the driver somehow, you have no idea who is in what position.  If you want to stay in 20th spot - technically, you have to block everyone because you don't know who the 21st place car is who you need to keep behind you...  Is that fair to the guy in 5th who may have the guy in 4th just ahead of him on track?

You are complaining that by doing this, the fast cars are "messing up" your race.  But isn't the same to be said about the slow cars from the fast cars perspective?  Someone has to give up time in order for the two cars to exchange positions - in your world, the fast car has to come off line, in my world the slow cars do. 

Passing is the most dangerous part of racing.  You are making the faster cars get a nose under you before you give room even though you know you are slower.  You are making that pass more dangerous.  What if, on the previous corner, you came off line on the inside of the corner and didn't get on the gas for a second and just let them by?  How much time would you really have lost?  How much time has the faster car lost by having to get behind you until you yeild?  Like David says above with his battle with a crown vic - it doesn't take a lot for a slower car to hold up a faster one especially when the faster car is a momentum car and needs to be fast off the corners to make up time. 

These races are exactly like lapping days - but in the top groups (black/instructor).  The rules are exactly the same (wheels off, contact, flags, etc.) except you don't bend as much sheetmetal in lapping days.  If everyone treats it as such, and not a "race," everyone will be happier, there will be a lot less contact, less people in the penalty box, and more people will get more seat time. 

BTW - we have you paint on our car from when we tried to pass you and had a nose under you - proof that you don't practice what you preach ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0eRXWQjlPs )...    Have a nice day.

i'm sure that at some point you will be...and getting smaller by the second. 

Ever seen the results of that?  When a faster car is being blocked by another that is just slightly slower?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brNtbaMa … _embedded#

Do we really want this kind of 100% racing in crap cans around other people who have $50 license waivers?

Please also notice that the slower cars that are not in this battle get out of the way...

Well, I'm happy to abide by any set of sporting rules determined by the organizers (or universally agreed by the racers). The last time I suggested this very thing, I got blasted for suggesting guidelines for the "don't hit anyone" rule. So I'm not expecting rules clarification from the LeMoneers.

I'm not being sarcastic, but I thought this was a race, not a lapping day without point-bys. At Stafford, Jay made it clear that they wouldn't be throwing the passing flag and that it was up to us to make our passes (presumably without contact, without pissing anyone off, and making them stick).

If the rule is that I'm supposed to move offline or lift when I see a car in my mirror, it is new information to me. I don't think I saw anyone lift for me, except for the hopelessly slow (e.g. Snoopy, Lada) taking the non-preferred two-wide line (like the outside lane through T4). I don't think it is blocking to simply follow the racing line when no car is abreast of me. (Even a nose is abreast of me.) Obviously, I'm never going to intentionally have contact.

I've too have been frustrated getting past high power, poor-handling cars. I figured that that's part of racing Lemons (and part of selecting a car).

Some race series go beyond this and allow a single defensive move. I'm not even talking about that. I just talking about sticking to the fastest line until the car behind can at least stick a nose in. I left plenty of apexes because I wasn't sure if a car was there or not.

EDIT: As for when I passed, I didn't consider a nose sufficient. I backed out unless I was at least even with the car, in which case I expected a side-by-side unless the outside car braked early and relinquished the track-out (rare, and I was conservative to avoid contact).

As for the video, I wasn't driving. I've watched it a few times. I think it's pretty clear that our car intended to pass the slow cars that were on the right after letting the blue car past. It moved left before your car stuck its nose in. I think both cars went for the same track space at about the same time. We got there first. I think both drivers could have been more heads-up and avoided it. That said, our driver should have setup inside to pass the slower cars on the right, which would have "blocked" you and the blue car for the corner. You would have passed on the straight (or in T13), without contact or any problem.

Rob, your car was both faster and better handling than ours, and you passed us easily all day long.

That was a result of ugly blocking while racing for position and has absolutely nothing to do with driving an inside line. Professional endurance racers (Le Mans, Serbring etc...) never lift to let the faster classes through. They will not block the LMP1s of this world but they certainly dont move aside for them either.

Alongside is far enough alongside that you have the corner. Incidentally I drive one of the consistently fastest cars out there (3 top 10s) and I have no problem with people driving an inside line as long as they dont deliberately move over to block.

Team Formula BMW
Finishing order: 44th, 44th, 19th, 10th, 5th, 10th, 5th
We will win some day

Wow,
I never knew how rough it was to be "substantially faster".  But - if the pass doesn't matter, why not just hang back till us slow, lumbering drivers have to pull in for more gas or tires?    I may have to keep a box of tissues handy for when I log into these forums.  I mean, I know you aren't complaining about me because I am a west coaster, but man I feel guilty for driving a crown vic now.
not

There were 4 minutes left in the race at that point and people who were not being actively chased for position were letting other cars past. Got watch a mid race stint in any endurance race and you find there are tons of accidents between classes because the slower classes will not lift.

Team Formula BMW
Finishing order: 44th, 44th, 19th, 10th, 5th, 10th, 5th
We will win some day