Crazy Drivers and Dive Bombers_Just my opinion (Page 2 of 4)

My point is that no one in the pros gets black flagged for it. The faster car needs to check his/her ego at the door and WORK to make a clean pass. Just because you are a faster car in a straight line does not mean I will move off line and lose time to let you past. In a race like Lemons you can easily make it into the top 10 despite having a car that is several seconds a lap slower than the opposition - in Reno where we finished 5th we had the slowest "fast" lap of the top 16.

Steve W also made a great point about predictable lines - IMHO moving off line just isnt the answer. And BTW Steve spent some quality time looking at my rear bumper while trying to pass me in a faster car (4 laps at least) and instead of getting all upset about it we had a great time laughing about it post race.

Team Formula BMW
Finishing order: 44th, 44th, 19th, 10th, 5th, 10th, 5th
We will win some day

IMHO - slow cars, please stay on line, be predictable, don't 'help me'.  If I'm faster I'll find a way by.

Fast cars, use your advantage to pass when you can.  You certainly can't read the mind of the slow guy in front of you. Wouldn't it be better knowing that he will be 'on line' every lap rather than 'guessing' if he's going to move over?

That's my take on it.  Here's my pedigree. 15 Longest Day's, 1 Lamest Day, 1 Toledo Lemons, 5 years of Firehawk and Escort Endurance series (driving a slow class car)  Too much SCCA to mention -  Total of 30+ races of 12 Hours or more.

Been there, done that.

I've also hit my share of tire walls and other cars when it's not done right.

But hey, it's Lemons, you can do what you want. The mystery is half the fun!!  It;s all good.

Jay Lamm for President - Judge Murliee & Johnny for Supreme Court!!!

I think there's some confusion here...most of us aren't debating slow cars (like the Lada and Caddy - sorry guys).  It's the slow/fast cars that lumber through the corners but pull on the straights.  If they're blocking in the corners and then thundering away on the straights, it gets old really fast.

OOOH... burn. I'll keep that in mind if we ever meet.

But on topic. I do agree with the slower cars staying on the line. It's not hard for a faster car with better brakes to come in hot and sling shot past on the inside as the slow car swings wide trying to maintain as much momentum as possible. If it is infact faster and the driver is better prepared.

Now here is aggressive driving:

The following penalties were administered by Stafford Motor Speedway
Racing Director Frank Sgambato during & following the September 18, 2009 Whelen All-American Series program.

DATE ISSUED: 09-18-2009

NAME: Ted Christopher

DIVISION: SK Modified®

DATE OF INFRACTION: 09-18-09

RULES INFRACTION(S): 1. Actions detrimental to auto racing.

                                      2. Un-sportsmanlike conduct.

                                      3. Hitting another competitor after the checkered flag.

PENALTY(S): 1. One (1) event suspension.

                     2. One hundred dollar ($100.00) fine.

                     3. Loss of ten (10) championship points.

                     4. Placed on probation for the remainder of the 2009 season.

What? No cones or tires on the roof??? What kind of penalties are these??

Rob, I'm genuinely trying to understand your point. In this video, there is a ton of two-wide traffic, which given 120 cars on a 2.2 mile track is to be expected. I had some of my best fun in this two-wide stuff. Pick the right lane and you can pass a bunch of cars. Pick the wrong lane, .... I figured that somewhere up front were cars that were going as fast as they can, battling each other. I don't think the pack owes it to the fastest cars to queue up single-file to leave a "passing lane".

Some (but not all) of the fast darty cars that weaved through traffic left a wake of disturbed cars behind them. Several times I had to make room for rear bumpers to clear my front bumper when a car darted into a spot slightly smaller than it. Or a fast car darted in front of me and braked, using up the breaking zone I was planning on using. Uncool in my book. (Not saying your car did this; frankly I don't recall.)

And I found (particularly at Stafford) that high hp, wallowy cars (e.g. Crown Vic / Impala) that couldn't hold a side-by-side line very hard to get around. If I'm even with you, you owe it to me to go side-by-side. (I think we all agree on this.) I often didn't dare attempt it for fear of getting a punting.

If you're going to get heated about our bump, the front of your car hit our driver's door. We both deserved black flags, and we both got away with it. We'll take some blame for not seeing you. You stuck your car where it was very unlikely to be seen and tried to go essentially 3-wide through the left-hander when you were no where near even with us at turn-in. Both are Lemons driving errors. Your driver was the one to offer the apology. I think more than 50% of the responsibility lies with him, but that doesn't matter and opinions will differ. I'm not the least bit upset about it, but I don't think it illustrates either your point or your team's near flawless driving.

I'm not upset about the hit either.  It was offered as a retort to your statement that you always let people go once they get a nose under your car.  Our car had a nose under your car and your driver still came down on us.  I don't agree with our driver offering an appology - #1 it wasn't his fault.  #2 it was a racing incident.  #3 neither car was damaged nor came off line.  ...and I don't mean that in a bad way - just that it was fun, there was some rubbing, both drivers left with smiles on thier faces, and life goes on...

I'm arguing with two people and I think things are getting lost...

I also seem to be in the minority here.  If I'm on your ass in a straightaway, I've found the best and safest way to pass is for the slower car to go a little deep in the next turn and let the faster car take the apex.  Then on corner exit, I'll give you room to the outside and not track out into you.  That's just what I found and the way that I like to overtake people.

Alternatively, if I wasn't on your ass on the previous straight but caught up to you mid turn, I'd like you to complete your turn, move one carwidth in on the straight, come up off the gas a little, and just let me pass. 

Everyone else, it seems, likes the hang back and slingshot in front after the turn on the straight approach.  That's fine with me too.  But that's when you get into the drag races and playing chicken down the straight as to who is going to brake first.  And having a car that could outbrake everything, more than one car locked their wheels up and went into the grass.  Which is why I take a little  exception with those guys who make everyone fight for every spot.  If you play chicken down the front straight 200x, even with a 99% success rate, you are going to mess it up at least once (and is how Rahul got hit in the back at CMP if I remember correctly).

My general team orders are 99% like ninetyfourintegra's.  Make safe passes and let the cars that are faster than you by without blocking.

I just can't agree with this part of your post. If I've caught you in a corner, I can hold a tighter line than you in the corner. I'm going to be trying to come up the inside of you at track out, and I'll be really upset if you chose that moment to move to the inside.

As for lift off... you've got to be kidding. If you can't get past without it you're not faster.  I don't expect anyone to lift for me. (Except Rahul, I'd like him to slow down to 20mph every time he sees my car on track. )

But that's exaclty what we are talking about here.  I can catch you in the turns but your car can beat me in the straights.  So the only way that I'm going to get you is for you to lose a little speed for me in the straight and let me past.  So you inch out ahead of me in the straight, and then block me from a good line in the turn. 

Well, I tried...  It just seems like every else wants to try and set thier personal best time on track on every lap.  We all seem civil in paddock, I was just hoping for some of that same civility on track but I guess not.  So, I'm out of this arguement.

I do yield to faster drivers on the straights and turns.  I am more likly to let someone by on a straight because it is the safest place to pass.  And as you say, Karma comes around - I passed one guy and the red mist settled strongly over him.  He was doing everything he could to pass me back.  After a couple of laps (stafford with lap times in the 30 seond range and no passing zones), I went high in the corner just let him back by.  Later that lap, his head gasket failed.  I gave him a little rev when I went by as he was being pushed by the tow truck.

Rob, I have to say that I agree with some of the others here.  We're all in a RACE.  We're not going to lift in the straights.  If you're faster than me, but I have more power, you should be able to pass me in the turns eventually.  Thats where the racing comes in.  I know its difficult.  You have to setup your passes.  I drive slow cars and our #85 Celica was down on power to everything but the Lada.  But, that's racing.  http://www.vimeo.com/7098234  Where I'll agree with you, though, is that the slower cars need to FACILITATE the pass (more on that in a sec).

Now, that said, everyone needs to be PREDICTABLE, as has been mentioned.  If I'm passing, I want to know where that car in front of me is going to go so I can SETUP my pass.  Don't switch lanes 3x down the straight, or change your line mid-corner.  If you enter on the inside, exit on the inside.  If you enter on the outside, exit on the outside.  If you get to take the right line into the turn, then take it on exit (unless a car has come beside you).  I'll find my way around you.

The only other thing I need to stress is to leave racing room.  I saw a lot of people setting up on the outside for turns while faster cars were moving to the inside to pass under braking and the car on the outside would just cut in.  Everyone needs to FACILITATE THE PASS.  While we should all be racing each other, there's clean racing and there's dirty racing.  Don't cut down on someone, run down the middle of the road on the straights, or change lines to prevent someone from getting around you.

Everytime someone did it right, I gave them an appreciative wave