Re: Let's clear up this bribes thing

I've done 5 races, and only one remotely cheaty 93 bimmer @ flatrock07. got pulled in, jay told me they were thinking about docking us 42laps, and instead decided to pull us in and scare the shit out of us. took a second to sink in since i could barely hear him, my team ran over to find out what was up, but that was it.

we've never had to do any bribing, although we flubbed on a theme-related bribe for nelsons and didn't have it ready. did it matter? naw, we came to the race with a buick!

Murilee will even tell you, you could have a pretty cheatastic car (Superkak Mustang @ CMP anyone?) and their build documentation was so thorough, to this day he'll be of the opinion that they wern't really cheating. Not acting in the spirit of the race by bringing a crazy ringer mustang? hell yes. cheating? well, the mob decided they were. that car got LEVELED.

Re: Let's clear up this bribes thing

Corrupt judges and bribery......OF COURSE...its all part of the "game".... really only "cheaters" or people with poor attitudes need to worry about judges

Tech inspection is TOTALLY DIFFERENT.....safety should never be compromised...since in reality whatever money you spend trying to bribe a tech inspector you should have spent building a safer car....

Richard Doty
1984 Porsche 928 "Estate"
Porsche- "there is A substitute" Racing
Dirt Poorsche Racing #2

Re: Let's clear up this bribes thing

icemang17 wrote:

Tech inspection is TOTALLY DIFFERENT.....safety should never be compromised...since in reality whatever money you spend trying to bribe a tech inspector you should have spent building a safer car....

Could not agree more!  Enjoy the Lemons spirit during BS tech -- let's not even consider anything that compromises safety tech.   Keep it fun but not stupid.

-- John Robertson / Schumacher Taxi Service

Know more about a Craptation, coROLLa and BMW than I ever wanted to!
Stafford 08, CMP Spring/Fall 09, Stafford 09, Nelson Ledges 09, CMP Winter 10, VIR Chump 10, IOE Winning Craptation CMP Spring 2010, and lots more

Re: Let's clear up this bribes thing

hey, i was just describing my experience.  i thought it was shady as all hell with tech swiping our bs bribes.  we felt our car was sound, as we had some issues while on the tech line with seat and extinguisher that we were made to fix, and other than that it was the same thing we had brought the year before to stafford.

but that race was one of the first, if i recall correctly, to have to bring a jack and stands to tech to make sure the fuel/exhaust wasn't going to blow.  we had forgot the jack in the pits and as i was about to run back and grab it, one of the tech guys said we didn't need to jack it up since we bribed them.  they made a half-assed attempt to kneel down and look under, but i don't see how they could have seen anything.

believe me, i'd rather have tech swarming all over these things to make sure not only ours, or the none of these other crap boxes have something go wrong safety-wise on the track

Re: Let's clear up this bribes thing

Serj wrote:

Murilee will even tell you, you could have a pretty cheatastic car (Superkak Mustang @ CMP anyone?) and their build documentation was so thorough, to this day he'll be of the opinion that they wern't really cheating.

Well since they admitted to cheating I'm not sure what else can be said about that car.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

31

Re: Let's clear up this bribes thing

"Suppose to have $500, we have about $5,000".  Ding, we have a loser!

Jer / Schumacher Taxi Service
2010 Spring CMP I.O.E. winner
2010 Sebring overall winner
1996 Miata, 1991 BMW E30, 1987 coROLLa (retired), 1984 Citation (retired), 1993 Miata (retired)

Re: Let's clear up this bribes thing

Troy wrote:

I consider Bribing more or less Tipping. 

In all seriousness, I consider Jonny and Phil an integral part of what makes Lemons work.  The BS inspections are fun.  Some penalties can suck more than others but the whole point is to keep everyone safe.

Simple rule for black flags: if you car looks out of control and you get caught, you're getting a penalty.  This is why complete beginners with absolutely no door-to-door experience get a chance to race.  Try getting behind the wheel in SCCA or NASA.  It takes way more then $50 and a form.

Tech Inspections: you have to pass.  Some areas might have some room for interpretation but it all has to be safe.

Gotcha.  I apologize for any false speculations on my part.

The Cannonball Bandits | Facebook Fan Page | Unununium Medal Winners 2010
3X Organizer's Choice Winner 2010 - Sears Pointless, Goin' For Broken, Arse Sweat-A-Palooza
1X Organizer's Choice Winner 2011 - Arse Sweat-A-Palooza

33 (edited by Buzz Killington 2009-10-27 02:56 PM)

Re: Let's clear up this bribes thing

Judge Jonny wrote:

By the way, no Spec Miata team has ever thought to bribe us...

there's a part of me that can't help but suspect that these things are somehow related.

Jer wrote:

Agreed.  When we roll up in the rolled, still bone stock corolla, we don't bother with a bribe and the judges send us on through (knowing we'll blow it up or roll it again anyway).

and that ugly ol' girl certainly qualifies.  i love that car...who needs a "pretty" Lemons car anyway?

mike - Schumacher Taxi Service
12+-time loser
"Winner" - We Got Screwed, NJMP '11

Re: Let's clear up this bribes thing

Judge Jonny wrote:
craznoe wrote:

No disrespect, of course, but as a rookie coming into the next race, it seems that if you roll in with a perfectly legitimate $500 crapcan without any sort of a bribe, you're going to get smacked with some BS laps.

This is totally, absolutely, unequivocally 100% false.

We rolled in with a perfectly legitimate $500 crapcan, and an e30 to boot, and came away with a couple of spray paint badges and a "...good luck, ...no really, good luck."

Judge Johnny was fair and square. He was more interested in learning about the car and our process; our thematic theatrics were quickly put to bed.

Don't worry about being legitimate. Worry if you sweat and stammer before the judge.

Re: Let's clear up this bribes thing

VKZ24 wrote:
Serj wrote:

Murilee will even tell you, you could have a pretty cheatastic car (Superkak Mustang @ CMP anyone?) and their build documentation was so thorough, to this day he'll be of the opinion that they wern't really cheating.

Well since they admitted to cheating I'm not sure what else can be said about that car.

Well, the setup was more of the order of magnitude of their build documentation. It was supposedly epic-level. What I have heard, is that the car used to be some circuit car that was rolled or crashed or something like that. they were going to scrap it, but instead sold the hell out of every spare part that was on the car. Not saying I disbelieve anything at this point, but after the crushing I saw headers, and I have seen the video of them on the track.

Re: Let's clear up this bribes thing

Serj wrote:

... after the crushing I saw headers, and I have seen the video of them on the track.

Fox body Mustangs come stock with shorty/block huger style headers.  I think that has continued on through Mustangs after the Fox body.

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z

Re: Let's clear up this bribes thing

Troy wrote:
Serj wrote:

... after the crushing I saw headers, and I have seen the video of them on the track.

Fox body Mustangs come stock with shorty/block huger style headers.  I think that has continued on through Mustangs after the Fox body.

Do they come with aluminum driveshafts too?  They were quick to remove that along with their 'stock' ECU among other things.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: Let's clear up this bribes thing

Troy wrote:
Serj wrote:

... after the crushing I saw headers, and I have seen the video of them on the track.

Fox body Mustangs come stock with shorty/block huger style headers.  I think that has continued on through Mustangs after the Fox body.

Yes, and they're surprisingly restrictive too. As well as designed to peel your knuckles with every plug change..

Jim "Endo" Anderton
30 years of racing and still not Brambilla.....

39 (edited by Bender/StickFigureRacing 2009-10-28 07:08 AM)

Re: Let's clear up this bribes thing

The tech inspectors do their best to make sure we can get our cars around the track in a safe manner. I would not be so happy if I went through tech and they went over my car with a fine toothed comb and then let the next guy skate through without as much as a "looksie". That would mean that no matter how safe my car is, the guy racing next to me is a liability. I think that Jay and the gang do their best to make sure this doesn't happen. That's part of the reason why the rules are always changing, to meet a better standard of safety.
If there are dishonest inspectors accepting bribes then it needs to stop. I for one will tell any inspector that after he or she is done with inspections for the day they are welcome to come over for a cold one for doing a great job.
As far as the Judges:
In my opinion having the judges waiting for you when you get out of tech inspection is a huge part of the fun!  Our team does it's best to bring out the most ugliest lamest bribes we can think of. It's more a badge of honor to get "Bribed" painted on your car. Our car is a total piece of shit, and way under the $500.00 dollar rule, but we still bribe the judges. It is for us a way of saying thanks for letting us be a part of  fun and experience of a lifetime.

Team: V-Ram/Altamont Team: Knights of the Round Track/Reno/Buttonwillow/Thunderhill Team: Death Mobile/Sears 2010/Thunderhill/ChumpCar  Spokane/ MSR Houston/Buttonwillow/Sears. MRolla Project /Reno
http://stickfigureracing.blogspot.com/

Re: Let's clear up this bribes thing

icemang17 wrote:

Tech inspection is TOTALLY DIFFERENT.....safety should never be compromised...since in reality whatever money you spend trying to bribe a tech inspector you should have spent building a safer car....

+ a jillion !!!

Compromise the safety part and you can end up like that Mustang at Hallett.

Now the BS inspection, whatever it takes.

Re: Let's clear up this bribes thing

Serj wrote:

they were going to scrap it, but instead sold the hell out of every spare part that was on the car.

i bet they did just that.  and if i ran a salvage yard and my team was building a Lemons car, i'd pay sky high "prices" for the parts the team was selling off as well.

"oh, you have a pair of stock seats?  yes, i'll give you '$1000' for them.  BTW, am i driving first or third stint?"

but more than that, they acted and drove like total d-bags.  that's what got them crushed.  end of story.

while loading the carcass on the trailer, they were really worried about "the cams."  i didn't realize stock Ford cams were valuable enough to rescue from a crushed car.

mike - Schumacher Taxi Service
12+-time loser
"Winner" - We Got Screwed, NJMP '11

Re: Let's clear up this bribes thing

With the new roll cage requirements and some other changes in safety.  Many of the cars at MSR had not had to pass the new rules.  The tech inspections took a while and a lot of cars failed.  This is stressful for teams that failed so make sure you're within the specifications of the rules.

Now that we have passed the new standards, I hope our inspections go a little quicker in the future.  Ours was really pretty smooth anyway.

The only problem I have seen with tech is inconsistency.  A lot of teams in New Orleans failed tech but had passed twice before in Houston and it was more or less the same inspectors and still the same rules.  So the inspectors are more thorough now.

That said, they didn't like my friends roll cage padding but mine was fine.  We bought the stuff from the same place just in different colors.  We both use non-SFI padding.

Your car has to be safe in the eyes of the inspectors.  Cutting corners on your cage can cost you your whole race.  Make sure your cage is good, with proper bends and welds. 

MAKE SURE YOUR HARNESSES ARE INSTALLED TO MEET THE RULES!!!!

That was probably the most common cage failure at MSR.

3.5.1: Harness Mounting: Grade 8 or better hardware and 3-inch or larger load washers are required when mounting to sheetmetal. Shoulder harnesses should be within 15 degrees of horizontal from load point to seat entry.

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z

Re: Let's clear up this bribes thing

Judge Jonny wrote:
craznoe wrote:

No disrespect, of course, but as a rookie coming into the next race, it seems that if you roll in with a perfectly legitimate $500 crapcan without any sort of a bribe, you're going to get smacked with some BS laps.

This is totally, absolutely, unequivocally 100% false.

We did not bribe the refs and neither our truck or Isuzu got any BS laps. But the truck promptly demonstrated it was a gifted crapcan...on six wheels.

Team Apex Vinyl, driving then drinking
#163 Isuzu impulse
We save money by only using 3 tires in the corners

Re: Let's clear up this bribes thing

Troy wrote:

Your car has to be safe in the eyes of the inspectors.  Cutting corners on your cage can cost you your whole race.  Make sure your cage is good, with proper bends and welds.

I agree, but I can't tell you how many cages should have failed at CMP that passed.  Forget about the crappy welds...the designs were just plain WRONG.  I saw one car where the main hoop was cut and then butt welded back together.  I saw another with no diagonal brace at all.


Troy wrote:

That was probably the most common cage failure at MSR.

3.5.1: Harness Mounting: Grade 8 or better hardware and 3-inch or larger load washers are required when mounting to sheetmetal. Shoulder harnesses should be within 15 degrees of horizontal from load point to seat entry.

To meet the shoulder harness rule we added an extra member because the angle would have been too great.  Regardless of the rules we wanted our car to be safe.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

45

Re: Let's clear up this bribes thing

Judge Jonny wrote:

By the way, no Spec Miata team has ever thought to bribe us...

That's because the type of person who runs a Spec Miata doesn't get Lemons at all.

Racing 4 Nickels - 1989 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera
2011 SHOWROOM-SCHLOCK SHOOTOUT  IOE Winner
2012 The Chubba Cheddar Enduro Class C winner
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Re: Let's clear up this bribes thing

BoB wrote:
Judge Jonny wrote:

By the way, no Spec Miata team has ever thought to bribe us...

That's because the type of person who runs a Spec Miata doesn't get Lemons at all.

True. That said, the truly awful beater Miatas do indeed pay tribute. I mean, bribe.

heh heh.

"This is the scene where I get shot," Bronson said. "I have these little squibs that explode to make it look like bullets are hitting." "Fascinating," said Bergman. "I never knew how they did that." "You mean," asked Bronson, "you don't use machine guns in your movies?"

Re: Let's clear up this bribes thing

Troy wrote:

MAKE SURE YOUR HARNESSES ARE INSTALLED TO MEET THE RULES!!!!

That was probably the most common cage failure at MSR.

3.5.1: Harness Mounting: Grade 8 or better hardware and 3-inch or larger load washers are required when mounting to sheetmetal. Shoulder harnesses should be within 15 degrees of horizontal from load point to seat entry.

At NL our team fixed close to a dozen teams incorrect harness installations. We missed quite a few other cars as they drove past and we couldn't stop them. Remember that incorrectly installed harnesses are the same as no harnesses in an impact. The best way to mount the belts is using the bolt-in ends for the shoulder belts. We saw incorrectly webbed belts, belts at very strange angles, right and left belts of different lengths, belts led directly over sharp objects, you name it.

1985 528e Near Orbital Space Monkeys-GONE to orbit
1989 Rustang- "It's not like it's totally undriveable..."
"We came in pieces. We left in more..."

48

Re: Let's clear up this bribes thing

The Team Blue Goose CRX is pretty routinely forced out of the BS inspection pit without rolling to a stop, because they've seen it before and they know how crappy it is. We've had to beg to get stopped and have enough time to buy the "bribed" stencil. The judges seemed put off by the fact that we were wasting their time about it.

I see their point about preferring cash over so much booze. I mean there is only so much they can carry back on the plane. There is certainly no way they could drink everything in one weekend. Booze is cool and a fun bribe of course, but maybe a twenty wrapped around a tiny little airline booze bottle is at least something the judges will be able to enjoy later.

xtn

Re: Let's clear up this bribes thing

xtn wrote:

I see their point about preferring cash over so much booze. I mean there is only so much they can carry back on the plane. There is certainly no way they could drink everything in one weekend. Booze is cool and a fun bribe of course, but maybe a twenty wrapped around a tiny little airline booze bottle is at least something the judges will be able to enjoy later.

xtn

when you are a poor-ass college student, booze are a lot easier to give than cash!

Re: Let's clear up this bribes thing

My favorite bribe from this race was the Resistol camel-hair cowboy hat that I wore all weekend, courtesy of the #3 green GTI.