1 (edited by Mulry 2009-10-27 11:41 AM)

Topic: Thanks Giving

As many of you know, our team was awarded the Heroic Fix Trophy at Yee-Haw It's Texas Lemons 2009 last weekend at MSR-Houston. It was a team effort, but it was really more than that. I suspect that Hillary Clinton will never have a book ghostwritten about the experience, but if she did, it could be called "It Takes A Village to Successfully Swap Motors on an MR2 in Less Than 12 Hours." So I want to take a minute to thank everyone who helped us out.

For those of you who don't know the story, here's the brief version. On Friday during Break and Tune, we determined that we were getting compression of ~170psi on cylinders 1, 2, and 4, but only 25 on cylinder 3. We were creating excessive crankcase pressure, leading to a lot of oil mist coming out of the intake valve cover. We knew that if we didn't do something, the oil smoke from the car would get us black flagged over and over again on Saturday, an outcome we wanted to avoid. So we decided to pull the spark plug and injector control wire and run on 3 cylinders for as long as we could. It didn't last long like that (roughly 8 laps total over 3 drivers) before we developed an obnoxious rod knock. Pulling the spark plugs revealed about a 1/16 clearance on our rod bearings on the 1 & 4 cylinders; when we pulled the bottom end, the rod bearings on both ends were flat and burned, the crankshaft scored, and the motor was done. Turns out the #3 cylinder had a really nasty hole in it. See photo:

http://cache-02.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/12/2009/10/500x_Lemons_Update_2_11.jpg

We decided to try to swap motors, but the only one that was readily available was back in Fort Worth. My dad and I hopped into the Suburban around 4:00 Saturday afternoon and drove there, loaded up the donor MR2 on the borrowed trailer, and made it back ot the paddock by about 3:45 on Sunday morning. Early morning testing revealed some sketchy compression, but eventually we made it work and got it into the race car. By some miracle, it fired on the second try, albeit on probably only 2 cylinders. But we knew if we got back on track for even one scored lap, we would have a happy ending to yet another otherwise sad day in the annals of MR2 racing history. We did about 10 more laps and were able to finish under the checkered flag, which put a big grin on everyone's faces, at least on our team, and we got the Heroic Fix trophy, which I think my wife thinks is hideous and I think looks like the most beautiful piece of scrap welding ever. You be the judge:

http://tarpblog.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/trophy1.jpg

So, I have a ton of people to thank, and I want to do it publicly because their efforts were all tremendously public.

First and most especially, a big thanks to Bryan Carlson (that's him in the photo above). Bryan not only provided the donor car and the trailer which were both sitting in his driveway back in Fort Worth, but his endless and unceasing prodding of us to keep going was the motivational boost that we needed when energy and spirits waned. Bryan, you never said it in so many words, but at some point on Sunday morning, what I got was something along the lines of "you guys can quit now and start drinking -- if you're total pu$$ie -- or you can get this job done and get back on the track. What are you here for anyway?" On top of that, Bryan was a tremendous aid to getting the engines swapped. When we'd run into a fitting that we couldn't figure out or just needed another guy to get wrenching, Bryan had the answer or dove right in. Bryan, words can't express my gratitute to you for all your help this weekend.

Second, thanks to Aaron, Scott, Todd, and the other guys at ATS for their assistance and advice. We would have probably called it quits early on Sunday morning after that first compression test on the donor motor came back with such poor results if you guys hadn't helped us out. In addition to your advice and encouragement, thanks too for the tool and parts lending program. I think we got everything back to you but if you're missing anything, let me know and I'll look through the boxes of parts in the garage to see if it wound up in there.

Third, thanks to Danny of the green MR2 team. At a couple different times, we'd run into a problem and none of us could see the solution, then Danny would wander in and just by having a different set of eyes on the problem, a solution would be found. Danny, your assistance in getting the new engine fitted when those motor mounts didn't want to line up was invaluable. Thanks buddy!

Fourth, thanks to Judge Phil for walking down to our paddock space around 2:00 to give us a kick in the ass. The new engine was in but was being slow about getting buttoned up and connected. We were all tired and feeling discouraged that it was taking longer than we wanted and needed it to take, and I think that everyone was feeling that we weren't going to make it. When Phil told us that we stood a good chance of getting an award if we could turn just one more lap, it was just the shot of motivation that everybody on the team needed, and it made all the difference. It was like the entire team switched into a gear that they didn't know that they had. Thanks, Phil.

Fifth, thanks to all the folks who stopped by to watch us wrench on the cars and offer encouragement. Sometimes when the chips are down (as they were for us from about 1:30 on Saturday until about 2:40 on Sunday), just a kind word from a stranger really helps to keep you focused on the task at hand. One of the great things about Lemons is exemplified by the number of teams that stopped by to offer assistance and tools if we needed them. Here's one example: I don't know whose cherry picker we used all weekend, but I can't thank you enough for letting us use it. We never could have done this job without it.

Sixth, thanks to my team for pulling together again and again and again to get the job done. There seemed to be almost a thousand times over the weekend when we felt down and out and you guys just kept pulling it together and getting the job done to the best of your abilities. Mark, I couldn't ask for a better co-manager of these teams. Even now looking at the way that we were able to tag-team that car when one or the other of us was just plain worn out, I can't believe it. Thanks for sticking with me, brother. Pete, despite your protestations to the contrary, I hope you know that we simply could not have done this without you. You are a rock. Dad, I never had any question that when it was obvious that we were going to need to overnight it to FTW and back without much sleep, you would be there and would get the job done, no questions asked. I can't thank you enough. Sprotz, your tireless optimism and your ability to procure tools out of nowhere are amazing. Steve and Dave, you guys were great. You have no idea how helpful your assistance was to getting this engine swap done. For a bunch of guys who hardly knew each other this weekend, I'm awed by how everyone pulled together as a real team to make this happen. You are an awesome bunch of guys and I can't wait to race with you again.

Seventh, thanks to Jay and Nick and the Lemons crew for putting on the best race series on the planet as far as I'm concerned. We spent a total of less than 2 hours on the track over the weekend but that last 20 mintues or whatever when I was on the track after getting the motor swapped, as nothing more than a rolling chicane (except for you, Triumph TR-7! We waxed you! smile ), were undeniably the most satisfying laps I've ever turned in my life. You guys enable all this crazy behavior and I can't thank you enough for the opportunity.

Finally, and most importantly, thanks to my wife and girls for indulging me in this ridiculous addiction. I spend far too much time either in the garage working on the car or being distracted thinking about working on the car than is fair to any of them. I hope that they see how much it and you all mean to me.

Cheers, LeMonsters. Can't wait to see all of you again soon.

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.

Re: Thanks Giving

So your wife thinks the trophy is hideous looking but she's still married to you.

Congratulations.

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z

Re: Thanks Giving

Hopefully this is a lesson to all of you -- resist the siren call of the MR2!

"This is the scene where I get shot," Bronson said. "I have these little squibs that explode to make it look like bullets are hitting." "Fascinating," said Bergman. "I never knew how they did that." "You mean," asked Bronson, "you don't use machine guns in your movies?"

Re: Thanks Giving

Judge Jonny wrote:

Hopefully this is a lesson to all of you -- resist the siren call of the MR2!

What's with the damn Toyota 4A-GE blowing up left and right?

these motors are usualy known for being reliable. why do they keep blowing up at Lemons races?

At nelson ledges we has one of the many 1st generation MR2s in the field, and when it came time for the BS inspection we were waved through by Jay with a quote that will ring forever in my head. "Oh, an MR2, Toyota's most unreliable car ever."

but the thing is, this motor is in other Lemons worthy cars:
Toyota Celica 1983-1989
Toyota Corolla 1983-1993

why does it blow up in the MR2 only?

and then it turns arounds and teases us by having an MR2 turn the best lap time at nelson ledges. seems like victory is close at hand without being attainable with the MR2.

someone suggested the sump pickup goes dry during right hand turns, this would certainly explain the way they eat main bearings as they die.

I'm determined to make a sucessfull Lemons MR2, i'm just currious as to other people's insight onto the faliure modes

I'm somewhat currious if our chopped roof removed the low pressure air pocket above the motor and killed air circulation through the engine bay.

so far, i'm thinking a salvaged RX7 oil cooler and maybe a $60 moroso oil accumulator would go a very long way towards keeping this thing alive for a whole race.

Re: Thanks Giving

Troy wrote:

So your wife thinks the trophy is hideous looking but she's still married to you.

Congratulations.

Fortunately, she didn't get Lasik until after our vows. smile

Good to meet you in person, Troy. Also glad that I was elbows-deep in MR2 engine swap goodness so I didn't get roped into that Friend of Troy penalty.

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.

Re: Thanks Giving

Marc wrote:
Judge Jonny wrote:

Hopefully this is a lesson to all of you -- resist the siren call of the MR2!

What's with the damn Toyota 4A-GE blowing up left and right?

these motors are usualy known for being reliable. why do they keep blowing up at Lemons races?

At nelson ledges we has one of the many 1st generation MR2s in the field, and when it came time for the BS inspection we were waved through by Jay with a quote that will ring forever in my head. "Oh, an MR2, Toyota's most unreliable car ever."

but the thing is, this motor is in other Lemons worthy cars:
Toyota Celica 1983-1989
Toyota Corolla 1983-1993

why does it blow up in the MR2 only?

and then it turns arounds and teases us by having an MR2 turn the best lap time at nelson ledges. seems like victory is close at hand without being attainable with the MR2.

someone suggested the sump pickup goes dry during right hand turns, this would certainly explain the way they eat main bearings as they die.

I'm determined to make a sucessfull Lemons MR2, i'm just currious as to other people's insight onto the faliure modes

I'm somewhat currious if our chopped roof removed the low pressure air pocket above the motor and killed air circulation through the engine bay.

so far, i'm thinking a salvaged RX7 oil cooler and maybe a $60 moroso oil accumulator would go a very long way towards keeping this thing alive for a whole race.

Oh, it blows up in the celicas too, see Dai Mondai's unit for clarification, they even have Toyota Engineers helping them!

for the record, it seems that several reliable street cars/engines are terrible at Lemons. LT1s blow up, Hondas pop headgaskets, etc.

Re: Thanks Giving

We were told the same dire warning about our celice.  It still runs, but it did overheat, and blew a coil.  And I have the same misquided belief that I can make a good car out of it.  What do they say about doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result?

Bloomington, IN
We'll bring Beer!  Motorsports
Team Fiery Death! #0 2009 Lamest Day(65th), 2010 American Irony(24th), 2010 Detroit Bull(4th),2012 Capitol Offense (8th) 2012 American Irony (11 th), 2013 Capitol Offense (3rd) 2013 Chubba Chedder (4th, Judge Choice!) Now sadly part of a scrap pile. 
Toothless Racing Deadbeats #110 2011 Summit Point (61st) Currently being rebuilt into the new car!

Re: Thanks Giving

I thought Dai Modai lost a transmission?

Bloomington, IN
We'll bring Beer!  Motorsports
Team Fiery Death! #0 2009 Lamest Day(65th), 2010 American Irony(24th), 2010 Detroit Bull(4th),2012 Capitol Offense (8th) 2012 American Irony (11 th), 2013 Capitol Offense (3rd) 2013 Chubba Chedder (4th, Judge Choice!) Now sadly part of a scrap pile. 
Toothless Racing Deadbeats #110 2011 Summit Point (61st) Currently being rebuilt into the new car!

Re: Thanks Giving

Judge Jonny wrote:

Hopefully this is a lesson to all of you -- resist the siren call of the MR2!

BITE YOUR TONGUE!!

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: Thanks Giving

Another failed 4AGE sad  Glad to hear you guys got up and running... we're hoping to make 2 races on this next motor!

Re: Thanks Giving

Marc wrote:

someone suggested the sump pickup goes dry during right hand turns, this would certainly explain the way they eat main bearings as they die.

BINGO.  In our videos, we can see the oil pressure drop to 0 in right hand turns.  I think it's a testiment to Toyotas reliability that our car hung on for about 5+ hours of this.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: Thanks Giving

Hmmm ...

Now what car was that funny squealing/grinding sound coming from at Nelson Ledges?  Let me think ......

smile

-- John Robertson / Schumacher Taxi Service

Know more about a Craptation, coROLLa and BMW than I ever wanted to!
Stafford 08, CMP Spring/Fall 09, Stafford 09, Nelson Ledges 09, CMP Winter 10, VIR Chump 10, IOE Winning Craptation CMP Spring 2010, and lots more

Re: Thanks Giving

Marc wrote:

Why do 1st gen MR2s suck so much?

Cooling.

There is no way to cool those cars. None. Period.

This past weekend in Texas our network of spies informed us that an MR2 would be coming in with a turbocharged Celica motor.

We didn't care. Why?

It's an MR2!

"This is the scene where I get shot," Bronson said. "I have these little squibs that explode to make it look like bullets are hitting." "Fascinating," said Bergman. "I never knew how they did that." "You mean," asked Bronson, "you don't use machine guns in your movies?"

14 (edited by Mulry 2009-10-27 12:53 PM)

Re: Thanks Giving

Marc wrote:

What's with the damn Toyota 4A-GE blowing up left and right?

these motors are usualy known for being reliable. why do they keep blowing up at Lemons races?...

someone suggested the sump pickup goes dry during right hand turns, this would certainly explain the way they eat main bearings as they die.

This can be true, especially if it's a long right hand sweeper like Carousel at NL. Take a look at your oil pan, the sump is on the far passenger side, and the pickup is over there too. The pickup doesn't go very deep into the sump, and the oil capacity of the pan is only about 3.5 qts. So even if you start off with a full oil fill, you burn off some while racing, then you do Carousel in high rpm's, well, you probably just got your engine nice and toast-smelling.

But trust me, that's not the only problem. We fabbed up a kicked out oil pan that held about 7.5 qts and lowered our pickup. Didn't help us from burning or spewing out all of our oil at MSR-Houston.

Marc wrote:

I'm determined to make a sucessfull Lemons MR2, i'm just currious as to other people's insight onto the faliure modes

Good luck. It hasn't happened yet, and not for lack of trying.

Marc wrote:

I'm somewhat currious if our chopped roof removed the low pressure air pocket above the motor and killed air circulation through the engine bay.

I can't answer that, but I can tell you this: we were running the full stock roof and when the oil smoke came pouring off the engine, the first place it swirled was right back into the cockpit. I have the oil mist on the rear view mirror and the inside of the windshield to prove it. I don't care what people say about that engine/chassis design sucking air from underneath the car and cooling the engine when it exits through the lid, it's BS. It just doesn't happen. The air flow isn't right.

Marc wrote:

so far, i'm thinking a salvaged RX7 oil cooler and maybe a $60 moroso oil accumulator would go a very long way towards keeping this thing alive for a whole race.

The oil cooler should help with lowering engine temps if (and that's a big if) you can find a place to put the cooler where it is getting good airflow for the air/oil heat exchange. The stock one does nothing or close to nothing.

Personally, I think there are a couple big problems with this design. First, the coolant circulation sucks. The water pump cavitates like hell above about 4500 rpm -- aka where your engine is running the entire time in Lemons. The water pump is probably undersized given that it's pushing water all the way to the front of the car through the engine block. And then due to the design of the coolant hoses, it's next to impossible to bleed all the air from the coolant system, which leads to rapid overheating and head gasket failure. I think we warded off head gasket failure solely by having a spare head gasket kit on hand -- so instead we detonated our #3 cylinder.

Murilee keeps suggesting that someone relocate the radiator to the roof of the car. I know that we all resist this because of the aerodynamic resistance that it would cause, but he's probably right, it would be about the only effective way to get these cars cooled.

But the biggest problem of all is that MKI racers are racing engines that on the whole have 150k+ miles on them. Everything is worn and stretched out already.

Let's be honest. The MKI MR2 is a sporty-looking econobox. We would barely see them in Lemons but for the fact that it's an affordable mid-engined car and it handles really nicely (usually). There are fixes available for the problems that we find in these cars (like aluminum radiators and electric water pumps and Accusumps and etc.) but the fixes are too expensive for the rules.

If I didn't have a swelling inventory of 4AG parts, I'd jump ship on the car altogether. But I'm sure I'll race our AW11 again and again until I finally burn it at the track in a fit of pique.

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.

Re: Thanks Giving

You guys had quite a weekend. We weren't even aware of how bad it was until the awards banquet. I would love to have that trophy, just for the meaning of it.

Re: Thanks Giving

With about 5 minutes left until the checkered flag, Jay and I went out on a special mission to see if the TARP MR2 was out there. To our great shock, it was!

Re: Thanks Giving

shrimpandboots wrote:

You guys had quite a weekend. We weren't even aware of how bad it was until the awards banquet. I would love to have that trophy, just for the meaning of it.

Thanks man! It was great meeting y'all the other night. Sorry if some of us were a little preoccupied with the sad state of our car. I had to explain to one of our guys that "coon-ass" isn't an insult down in your neck of the bayou! Cheers, brother. Hope to see you soon.

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.

18 (edited by VKZ24 2009-10-27 01:26 PM)

Re: Thanks Giving

RobL wrote:
Marc wrote:

someone suggested the sump pickup goes dry during right hand turns, this would certainly explain the way they eat main bearings as they die.

BINGO.  In our videos, we can see the oil pressure drop to 0 in right hand turns.  I think it's a testiment to Toyotas reliability that our car hung on for about 5+ hours of this.

This problem isn't limited to MR2's or even Toyotas.  Most of the cars we are all racing were designed for street use, not for high speed sweepers on a race track.

The cheap and easy solution (in most cases) is to add a baffle in the oil pan.  We used some thin scrap metal and made our own for our little Honda's B20A and it worked like a champ.  No loss of oil pressure in any of the turns.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: Thanks Giving

Judge Jonny wrote:
Marc wrote:

Why do 1st gen MR2s suck so much?

Cooling.

There is no way to cool those cars. None. Period.

Uh, yeah...right.  roll

Pat, you guys should've also gotten the 'We got screwed' award since you did an engine swap at NL too!

Mod Squad Racing
http://twosrus.com

20 (edited by Bender/StickFigureRacing 2009-10-27 01:28 PM)

Re: Thanks Giving

Judge Jonny wrote:
Marc wrote:

Why do 1st gen MR2s suck so much?

Cooling.

There is no way to cool those cars. None. Period.

This past weekend in Texas our network of spies informed us that an MR2 would be coming in with a turbocharged Celica motor.

We didn't care. Why?

It's an MR2!

Well our MR2 for Thunderhill has "Swirl Pot Disease" We are hoping this will take care of the nasty overheating issue.:D http://stickfigureracing.blogspot.com/

Anyone for Hot Enchiladas?

Team: V-Ram/Altamont Team: Knights of the Round Track/Reno/Buttonwillow/Thunderhill Team: Death Mobile/Sears 2010/Thunderhill/ChumpCar  Spokane/ MSR Houston/Buttonwillow/Sears. MRolla Project /Reno
http://stickfigureracing.blogspot.com/

Re: Thanks Giving

Team Swirl Pot Disease!

Re: Thanks Giving

Errr....

http://jalopnik.com/5270894/the-top-102 … -of-lemons

12th position. I'm pretty sure it got 12th at T-hill too. That's consistant.

Chotus! Chotus! Chotus! Chotus!

Re: Thanks Giving

Well, as Mulry said, we made a MacGyver version of the baffled Moroso kicker pan with an a 7qt sump to solve the sweeper starvation problem.  I'd say our next build will likely have an oil cooler and oil temp gauge.  I'm curious to see where our oil temps are under street driving and racing conditions.

We would never see water temps do anything bad on either car.  Does the stock water pump really cavitate over 4500RPM?  Gad...  Maybe we'll hide an electric pump in plain sight in the frunk.  We can count on the MR2 BS Inspection zero-lap wave-through.

Re: Thanks Giving

Wow, thought I fell into the Hopeless Z pool only to find I'm in the MR2 sauna.

Finding a cheap non-completely ragged out sporty car for under $500 is damn near impossible.  So MR2s seem to be right up there with old Zs, just a bit newer.

Here's a suggestion for you guys, a raw water pump for a boat.  Some are belt driven, other's bolt straight to the crank.  Crap loads of flow.  You might even be able to ditch the factory pump.

My 240Z on the other hand seems to like to suck the lower radiator hose shut.  I think it may just be the impeller design by whoever the particular manufacturer is.  Either way, I think that contributed to our low compression from a suspected blown head gasket.

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z

Re: Thanks Giving

Nothing like a little encouragement. 

It even looks decent in the pics.

92 mr2 - $325 (corpus christi)

http://corpuschristi.craigslist.org/cto/1438450393.html

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z