1 (edited by lbreevesii 2009-11-01 08:59 AM)

Topic: Building a 240sx- Couple of questions

Hi all,
   So I picked up a 240sx for Lemons money($300) with two sets of wheels(steelies and enkei's), front, rear strut bars, lower suspension brace, and some expensive ricer exhaust.  The price was low because the guy who owned it failed to change his trans fluid and borked the bearings. He didn't want to mess with it because he was in desperate need of a truck. So as part of the purchase he got another trans for us(even includes a short shifter). 

So here are my questions. 

1. We have been considering brake upgrades. The choices are basically Q45 calipers(which are massive but have few performance pad choices), or swapping the hubs to Z32 5 lugs and running the Z32 brakes.  Will doing this swap be considered kosher for our upgrade under the brakes dont' count towards the $500 rule ?  I ask since it is more than a simple rotor and pad upgrade, but is still being done simply for the better pad options.   

2. I understand that anything sold off the car goes back into your budget. Will selling these two sets of 4 lug wheels, tires, and(if the answer to #1 is yes) the hubs and brakes count back towards the 500? 

If we are able to sell some of the interior, the AC, exhaust, those strut bars, hubs, brakes, etc.  We should be sitting pretty to replace the head gasket, water pump, rad, bushings, and possibly the struts and springs. 

If we can get the time ot finish it we may be running the spring CMP race as well as the fall(if she survives). 

Thanks,
   Larry

Re: Building a 240sx- Couple of questions

You don't need to swap the hubs to use the Z32 brakes.  They bolt right on.

I actually have a complete F&R Z32 brake package for sale, PM if interested

Fall South 09- 23rd place
Southern Discomfort '10 Magnum PU- 5th place
Spring South '10- 1st...... LOSER!

Re: Building a 240sx- Couple of questions

Be wary of the performance parts that "came with" the car.  No matter how honest and true your story may be, the judges always shun the "all this stuff came with the car" line.  If you've got "trick" looking aftermarket braces (whether they actually DO anything or not) and other crap that came with the car, you have been warned.

Better to sell all that cool stuff, and if you think you need braces, source some scrap steel and get to welding!

Lemons South 2008 - Fail, Lemons South Spring 2009 - Fail, Lemons Detroit(ish) 2008 - Fail, Lemons South Fall 2009 - Fail, Lamest Day 2009 - Fail, Miami 2010 (Chump) - 2nd!, Sebring 2010 (Chump) - Fail, Cuba 2010 - Crew Chief, Roebling 2011 (Chump) - 8th!, Sebring 2011(Chump) - 19th!

Re: Building a 240sx- Couple of questions

^ that's exactly my plan Loren.  I knew this day would come, so my bill of sale lists the trans, short shifter, exhaust, braces, all of that stuff.  I plan to fab a replacement lower brace, we won't need the upper rear one, and I'll probably fab the front one or not worry about it. 

ecugrad-  Is someone making 4 lug 300zx rotors?  My understanding was that getting 4 lug stuff(or drilling) was the biggest issue.   I'll hit ya up about that swap.

Re: Building a 240sx- Couple of questions

lbreevesii wrote:

ecugrad-  Is someone making 4 lug 300zx rotors?  My understanding was that getting 4 lug stuff(or drilling) was the biggest issue.   I'll hit ya up about that swap.

Nope but drilling rotors is easy peezy

Fall South 09- 23rd place
Southern Discomfort '10 Magnum PU- 5th place
Spring South '10- 1st...... LOSER!

Re: Building a 240sx- Couple of questions

lbreevesii wrote:

^ that's exactly my plan Loren.  I knew this day would come, so my bill of sale lists the trans, short shifter, exhaust, braces, all of that stuff.  I plan to fab a replacement lower brace, we won't need the upper rear one, and I'll probably fab the front one or not worry about it. 

ecugrad-  Is someone making 4 lug 300zx rotors?  My understanding was that getting 4 lug stuff(or drilling) was the biggest issue.   I'll hit ya up about that swap.

1984 Z31 non-turbo rotors are 4 lug.  No need for any drilling.

BRE Datsun (Broke Racing Effluence) formerly Dawn of the Zed Racing
'74 260Z
Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/editpicture.php … 2559430584

Re: Building a 240sx- Couple of questions

I think the stock brakes on the 240SX are probably good enough.  You can upgrade the pads and run stainless lines.

I think the 300ZX calipers may bolt on which may be what ecugrad is saying.

I have first gen 300ZX rotors front and rear with 240SX calipers on the back of the 240Z.  Front stuff is kinda custom.

One advantage to going to 5 lug, if it's easy, is better wheel and tire options.

Regarding salvage sales, in my opinion, anything falling under safety which does not apply to the $500 rule should not add to your budget.  This is strictly my opinion and this is not clearly defined in the rules.

A rear strut bar is easily replaced by a steel tube which can be used as a harness bar.  A front bar can be made but I'd use it if it came with it.

If the head gasket ain't blown, leave it alone.  If you pull the head to replace the gasket, I encourage you to carefully befriend it with a die grinder.

Water pumps, and hoses are definitely good things to replace.

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z

Re: Building a 240sx- Couple of questions

I think we're going to go 300zx all around(if not all around, just up front since thats a wayyy easier way to go and still makes a big difference).  I actually did some more searching and found some nice rotors that are predrilled for 4 lug. 

The second set of wheels that came with the car are enkei 16" which I think will clear the z32 brakes.  I'm currently running a 205/50/zr16 on them, but I think they'll run a 225 which opens up the options even more.  I'm not too concerned with tire choices.   

Can I get a definitive answer from jay or someone about selling old brakes/other stuff that does not count to the $500 limit please?  I don't want to get myself one million penalty laps for having sold my stupid ricer exhaust, brakes, etc.

Troy, what do you mean about the head gasket +die grinder stuff?  I'm not sure what you're getting at there.  As cheap as they are it will get a new pump, belts, and hoses before the race.  If I can I will probably replace the fuel pump(its started buzzing sometimes...)

We plan to go wayyy overboard on the cage, so there won't be any need for a rear strut bar at all. 

Any other words of wisdom?

Thanks for the help guys.  If time permits I would love to have er' ready for the spring race!

Re: Building a 240sx- Couple of questions

lbreevesii wrote:

We should be sitting pretty to replace the head gasket, water pump, rad, bushings, and possibly the struts and springs.

Larry, I would not replace a head gasket just for maintenance.

However, if you pull the head off, you can can use a die grinder to improve air flow.  There's a variety of things you can do but I already told you too much.

Regarding Z32 brake stuff.  If you upgrade the front, look at the rest of the system for proportioning.  Brake upgrades can be good or can screw up your bias.

The Z32 came with 16" wheels from the factory.  Z31s came in 4 or 5 lug and 15" or 16" wheels.

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z

Re: Building a 240sx- Couple of questions

oh gotcha.  I was hitting a brick wall regarding what I would be hitting with a grinder.  talk about a brain fart moment.  Once I check the compression I will know if I intend to pull the head, if I do I will definitely port and polish.  The only other major motor thing I intend to do is the 248/248 cam swap.  12 bucks from the scrap yard will net me more low/mid or mid/high power depending on how I retard the cam. 

Sounds like my wheels should clear fine.  My understanding is that the proportioning isn't thrown off much with just a front swap, but a bigger mc or an auto 240 booster is recommended to improve pedal feel.  What I will probably do is tackle the fronts first then hit the rear later(if I have time) since that part of the swap is more involved due to the e-brake hardware.

11 (edited by the head 2009-11-02 07:42 AM)

Re: Building a 240sx- Couple of questions

I breeviesii there is one other brake upgrade that you can look into for your application, the japanese 180sx type x came with larger brakes then the us ones and you dont have to change out the M/C like with the 300zx brakes.
I have a set with 30 miles on the pads, braided steel brake lines for $75 right now, pads are akiboro pro ceramic (same pad compound we used on our Q45 Lemons car) a little search on the 240 forums and you can easily get 4 lug rotors for this setup (iirc they are 94 altema rotors for four lug and 89 maxima rotors for 5 lug)

These brakes came with some other parts I bought for my SR powered track 240 and I have no use for them and I need money to build our new Lemons ride so let me know.

Also just fyi I use my for track days, i have not upgraded the rears at all, and for the speeds a rather basic 240 Lemons car will get up to you bigger problem with the Z32 brakes will be locking up it is a crapload of brake for the car given its built to stop something double its weight.

I may have some other stuff sitting around you could put to use

Formerly an asshole driving an Infinity
Now just another cock with a Porsche
Chief bad decision maker of Team Lowbrau

Re: Building a 240sx- Couple of questions

Hand ported heads.. gotta love it...

Sons of STIG
Judge Jonny, "So, what's the next formerly thought to be immune from winning that will steal the nickels?An MR2? A Fierro (ha ha ha)? A Datsun/Nissan Z? A Camaro?"

Re: Building a 240sx- Couple of questions

My philosophy on brakes for this project has been go big or go home.  Mostly because I figure it does not count towards the limit, might as well do it right.  I"m thinking about just doing front 300zx brakes with hawk HPS or HP+ pads, with stock or 180sx rears with hawk pads. 

What route would you guys go?  I'm new to this Lemons thing and I don't really know what to expect in terms of brake and tire life, etc. 

What have you guys seen break on 240's other than belts, water pumps, hoses, etc.?

14 (edited by the head 2009-11-02 09:25 AM)

Re: Building a 240sx- Couple of questions

over size brakes on a 240 provide nothing but more expensive brake changes man...no bullshit when I finally started laying down 350+ hp in a completely stripped 240 with a full competition suspension setup I finally put on larger brakes. Good rotors, braided brake lines and dot4 fluid are just fine on that thing.

HP+ and HPS are great pads but what you need to look at primarily is wear, they dont last as long as good ceramics usually and you are going to be running this car for 12-24 hours longevity is far more important then HP in this deal man you will lose a lot more laps swapping out pads halfway through then just staying out there and not having fancy race pads

Also keep a spare MAF around, they have a tendency to go out for no reason.

Formerly an asshole driving an Infinity
Now just another cock with a Porsche
Chief bad decision maker of Team Lowbrau

Re: Building a 240sx- Couple of questions

the head wrote:

HP+ and HPS are great pads but what you need to look at primarily is wear, they dont last as long as good ceramics.

Ummm.....we ran Hawk HP+ on our Prelude and after the race we  had only used HALF of the front pads.  The rears still looked brand new.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: Building a 240sx- Couple of questions

and our ceramics ran the whole time and used well less then half of the front pads.  I am still certain we could have made the nelson ledges race on one set of pads, provided of course that my team did not nuke the engine

Formerly an asshole driving an Infinity
Now just another cock with a Porsche
Chief bad decision maker of Team Lowbrau

Re: Building a 240sx- Couple of questions

lbreevesii wrote:

What have you guys seen break on 240's other than belts, water pumps, hoses, etc.?

Long sweeping right hand turns = oil starvation.  Every single lap I turned in my 240 at Rockingham the needle would nose dive in T3.  Do that for 12 hours and boom goes the dynamite.

Fall South 09- 23rd place
Southern Discomfort '10 Magnum PU- 5th place
Spring South '10- 1st...... LOSER!

Re: Building a 240sx- Couple of questions

If I was you:

sell off the ricer bits. the exhaust you might as well leave as-is unless you can sell it for more than the cost of getting a near-oem setup welded in.

Junkyard fab upper and lower front strut tower braces. box them up nicely. Rear tower strut brace I'm not positive is as relevant, but an extra bit of cage steel between them works nice as a replacement to the sellable stuff.

Troy's right about the motor. water pump and rubber bits should really be your "must replace" list. if you're getting compression issues then hey, what can i say? Airflow is nice, but a spicy cam isn't a necessity. make sure you vigorously document stuff like that. because you've already admitted in here you plan on doing it.

Brakes: good fluid, SS brake lines, reman'd calipers, and Hawk Blues will all do plenty. your primary concern with CMP is that they have several heavy braking zones, so you really want to time your brake wear to just past the end of day one, bring a spare set for both ends of the car and swap'em when they cool off. A good-quality ceramic set will definitely last, but may not be in the right operating temperature range for a race application.

Re: Building a 240sx- Couple of questions

Thanks for all the info guys.  You've given me a lot of options to consider(on several things). 

Fortunately cmp isn't big on long right handers so should be okay on oil.

I figure i'll do that cam swap since it is a whopping 12 bucks.  I should have the cash

I plan to sell the ricer bits, especially the exhaust.  Its a $500 exhaust new so I figure I can get 350 out of it.  Thats easily new(read: lightly used) struts and springs by itself. 

It currently has a fairly new centerforce stage II clutch, but its being used as a mtn hoonage car.  Would you recommend a fresh clutch before race time?

Re: Building a 240sx- Couple of questions

lbreevesii wrote:

Fortunately cmp isn't big on long right handers so should be okay on oil.

CMP 1/2 seems alot like 3/4 at Rockingham.

Fall South 09- 23rd place
Southern Discomfort '10 Magnum PU- 5th place
Spring South '10- 1st...... LOSER!

21 (edited by lbreevesii 2009-11-02 11:27 AM)

Re: Building a 240sx- Couple of questions

don't we run the cmp west?  Its not as bad as the full or east. 

Any cheap solutions to the oil starvation?(aka: Lemons style)

edit:  side note, I hear the same thing about hp+'s lasting the whole race wish ease.  I figure run a set on the first day and swap the fronts before the 2nd day.

Re: Building a 240sx- Couple of questions

lbreevesii wrote:

don't we run the cmp west?  Its not as bad as the full or east. 

Any cheap solutions to the oil starvation?(aka: Lemons style)

edit:  side note, I hear the same thing about hp+'s lasting the whole race wish ease.  I figure run a set on the first day and swap the fronts before the 2nd day.

adding a baffle in the oil pan seems to be a popular band-aid for Lemons. doesn't completely cure the problem though. I could go into oils and about choosing one with a robust additive package. Another idea that a few have tried simply seems to be overfilling the crankcase slightly. all have their advantages and weaknesses.

Re: Building a 240sx- Couple of questions

http://www.carolinamotorsportspark.com/cmpwesttrack.gif

Fall South 09- 23rd place
Southern Discomfort '10 Magnum PU- 5th place
Spring South '10- 1st...... LOSER!

Re: Building a 240sx- Couple of questions

I was thinking a baffle too. I've never had a ka apart, I am wondering if there is an easy way to mod the pickup to improve the situation. I'll probably couple a baffle with a really good quality oil and call it good. 

Oh yeah fyi, I also got the car for Lemons money because the owner had an encounter with a mailbox...  bald tires + light rain + dipshit = skkrrrrtttt mailbox...

Re: Building a 240sx- Couple of questions

Sorry for the thread revival guys, but I figured it better than starting a new thread. 

I will be selling a lot of parts off of this car.  That said, what do you recommend for documentation?  Most of it is being sold on tuner forums and thus its parts cost + shipping.  Will documentation from e-correspondance be enough or should I go buy a book of stamps and get some signed bills of sale signed?  I'm assuming I should just separate out the shipping cost to get a base parts price as well?