• From: New Alexandria PA
  • Registered: 2010-06-14
  • Posts: 964

Re: Keep it a 2.2 4-pot?...

psychoboy wrote:

properly sorted power steering only comes in handy in parking lots. once the car has any useful speed, assist just makes the steering feel sloppy.

and, because someone always responds with the fact that "major league race cars (notably f1) have power steering" when i make the above comment online....

F1 cars have power steering. they also have gumballs for tires, aero that causes the car to weigh twice as much at speed, and a steering ratio of about 1 turn lock to lock. when my "race car" with its 200 treadwear tires and 3.5+ turns lock to lock, starts doubling its weight at 50 mph...i'll consider putting power steering back in it.


Let me start by saying....  I agree with you.

However, it is my understanding that F1 cars actually have quite high steering ratios.  This allows the drivers to make very fine adjustments. 

Also, it may be 1 turn lock to lock (which has nothing to do with ratio), but that lock is drastically shorter than road cars.  From my analysis, F1 cars have the turning radius of the titanic.

In other words, if your wheels only turned 10 degrees either direction, but had a 25:1 ratio, it could still be 1 turn lock to lock.


Again, I do agree with you.  The steering force is drastically higher on an F1 car than a street based car.

Rob R.

Ghetto motorsports - Car #555 1980 Mazda RX7 (3x winner of BFE GP / 1x 2nd place of BFE GP...BOO!)
Car #350 78 Chevy Malibu (Least horrible Yank Tank, Heroic Fix) (Gone)
Car # 556 1987 Mazda RX7 (6th place MMC 2013) (1st place Capitol Offense 2013)
  • From: Alvin, TX
  • Registered: 2010-02-22
  • Posts: 2,143

Re: Keep it a 2.2 4-pot?...

mechimike wrote:
firegremlin wrote:
Team Sensory Assault wrote:

^^^ Try 12 GPH in the FD.  hmm

I'll let Mechimike answer this in greater detail, but I thought the LTD got better fuel burn with a 460 in it.

We calculated our fuel burn rate at a little less than 10 GPH.  Yeah, we had an engine with more displacement than 3 plastic Coke bottles, but the rear end ratio was like 2.76:1.  I'd wager the 460 made more power than the FD rotary, too.  According to our drag strip times, we calculated approximately 280 RWHP when it was tuned up.

Nope, we have classified dyno sheets (not butt dyno) - and you ain't even close.   big_smile

Dangerous Banned Technology (NOLA 09), Judges Choice (Houston 2010), Organizers Choice (NOLA 2010), Most Heroic Fix (Dallas 2010), $100 from Jay's Pocket (Dallas 2010), Dangerous Homemade Technology (NOLA 2010), Ununhexium Legends of Lemons Status,  Index of Effluency (Dallas 2011), Most Heroic Fix - (Houston 2011), Index of Effluency (TWS - 2012), Organizers Choice (Dallas 2013)
  • From: oklahoma city
  • Registered: 2009-10-08
  • Posts: 1,586

Re: Keep it a 2.2 4-pot?...

torque curves would be more fun to compare.

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Re: Keep it a 2.2 4-pot?...

psychoboy wrote:

torque curves would be more fun to compare.

do magic triangles even make torque? I was under the impression that they were like flux capacitors; no one understands how they make power, and it seems like science fiction but they just work.

dead rabbit society: cultured 'n shit.
  • From: Alvin, TX
  • Registered: 2010-02-22
  • Posts: 2,143

Re: Keep it a 2.2 4-pot?...

I wanna see K Car engine swap pics.  smile

Dangerous Banned Technology (NOLA 09), Judges Choice (Houston 2010), Organizers Choice (NOLA 2010), Most Heroic Fix (Dallas 2010), $100 from Jay's Pocket (Dallas 2010), Dangerous Homemade Technology (NOLA 2010), Ununhexium Legends of Lemons Status,  Index of Effluency (Dallas 2011), Most Heroic Fix - (Houston 2011), Index of Effluency (TWS - 2012), Organizers Choice (Dallas 2013)
  • From: Rockville, MD
  • Registered: 2010-12-15
  • Posts: 1,155

Re: Keep it a 2.2 4-pot?...

Sounds like what the K-car really needs is a 440, an overdrive  A-833, and a 2:1 rear end.

For that excellent fuel economy, you know.

K Car Stalker
  • From: Houston, TX
  • Registered: 2012-06-21
  • Posts: 1,608

Re: Keep it a 2.2 4-pot?...

If you find all of that stuff, I can take it off your hands and put a 225, A-904, and 2.76:1 rear end under the K-car.

You know, to keep it class C.

Escape Velocity Racing
  • From: oklahoma city
  • Registered: 2009-10-08
  • Posts: 1,586

Re: Keep it a 2.2 4-pot?...

SpaceFrank wrote:

If you find all of that stuff, I can take it off your hands and put a 225, A-904, and 2.76:1 rear end under the K-car.

You know, to keep it class C.


cuz the dart will be class C no matter what's under it...right?

Team OK-Speed
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  • From: Houston, TX
  • Registered: 2012-06-21
  • Posts: 1,608

Re: Keep it a 2.2 4-pot?...

It will be if Phil doesn't bother to open the hood again...

Escape Velocity Racing
  • Registered: 2011-01-04
  • Posts: 209

Re: Keep it a 2.2 4-pot?...

firegremlin wrote:
frankdtank00 wrote:
firegremlin wrote:

Is that a power steering pump and other random unnecessary crappolah on that motor?....

So power steering no, but idle air control and O2 sensors yes....

Oh, hell yeah. I have plenty of muscle to turn tough steering wheels (I daily-drive an LT1 Roadmaster with an unboosted 2.5 ratio Impala SS steering box), but I can't telepathically convince the computer to adjust fuel mixture on the highway. Nor can I convince it to adjust idle according to outside air temperature, elevation, and engine temperature, all of which will vary a LOT during my drive over the Rockies, for example.

Besides, contrary to popular belief, driveability aids like o2 sensors and IAC help A LOT on the track. I'm never ripping mine out ever again. You spend a lot of time idling or cruising along, surprisingly (like, braking, yellows, sitting in a cloud of dust after a spinout, etc).

A working 02 sensor will keep the ECU from running pig-rich. This saves you some gas, but more importantly it'll keep said gas out of your oil. Gas in oil = higher chance of engine block becoming a cupholder.

Finally, a non-working IAC coupled with a loose battery clamp or any other problem that'd prevent you from restarting after a stall can mean a difference between driving in for a black flag after a crash/spinout, and getting towed in.

I know everyone likes the simplicity and the appeal of rough-running "race motor" that has nothing but bare essentials, but you're not really gaining any significant advantages in terms of clutter control, and the disadvantages are plenty.

Damn, I sound like my mother.

Oh don't get me wrong I understand the function of theses parts(A.S.E. certified and all) just wanted to make sure you had ALL your request submitted.....

2011 Organizers choice at Garrapatas Peligrosas GP as a Rookie team! 2011 Yee-Haw its Lemons Scruffy Nerf Herder 1991 Dodge Daytona IROC Shelby R/T Charger, 2012 Yee-Haw its Lemons 1972 RX2 IOE WINNERS!!!!, 2012 North Dallas Hooptie the arrival of JUDGE FRANK! 2012 Gator-rama in the 1977 Mustang II, 2012 Season Ender the HONORABLE JUDGE FRANK! 2013 BFE GP in the K-Car and an I Got Screwed Award

61 Reply by firegremlin (edited by firegremlin 2013-05-16 07:29 AM)

  • From: Rockville, MD
  • Registered: 2010-12-15
  • Posts: 1,155

Re: Keep it a 2.2 4-pot?...

frankdtank00 wrote:

just wanted to make sure you had ALL your request submitted.....

- Yeah, three cheeseburgers, two large fries, two chocolate shakes and one large coke.

- ... And some flapjacks.

- Too early for flapjacks?

big_smile

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  • From: Life's great in 21158
  • Registered: 2009-05-01
  • Posts: 3,361

Re: Keep it a 2.2 4-pot?...

Team Sensory Assault wrote:
mechimike wrote:
firegremlin wrote:

I'll let Mechimike answer this in greater detail, but I thought the LTD got better fuel burn with a 460 in it.

We calculated our fuel burn rate at a little less than 10 GPH.  Yeah, we had an engine with more displacement than 3 plastic Coke bottles, but the rear end ratio was like 2.76:1.  I'd wager the 460 made more power than the FD rotary, too.  According to our drag strip times, we calculated approximately 280 RWHP when it was tuned up.

Nope, we have classified dyno sheets (not butt dyno) - and you ain't even close.   big_smile

For all RPMs that both the 460 and the rotary can both spin at, I'll wager the 460 makes more power AND torque.  ;-)

Tunachuckers: 15 Years of Effluency
'08 - '10: 1966 Volvo 122, "Charlie"
'10 - '18: 1975 Ford LTD Landau --> 2018 - current: Converted into 1950 "Plymford"
'22 - current: 1967 Volvo 122, "Charlie ]["

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  • From: Alvin, TX
  • Registered: 2010-02-22
  • Posts: 2,143

Re: Keep it a 2.2 4-pot?...

mechimike wrote:
Team Sensory Assault wrote:
mechimike wrote:

We calculated our fuel burn rate at a little less than 10 GPH.  Yeah, we had an engine with more displacement than 3 plastic Coke bottles, but the rear end ratio was like 2.76:1.  I'd wager the 460 made more power than the FD rotary, too.  According to our drag strip times, we calculated approximately 280 RWHP when it was tuned up.

Nope, we have classified dyno sheets (not butt dyno) - and you ain't even close.   big_smile

For all RPMs that both the 460 and the rotary can both spin at, I'll wager the 460 makes more power AND torque.  ;-)

Oh goodie!   

What you prepared to lose in this wager?  smile

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64 Reply by Omnilith (edited by Omnilith 2013-05-16 11:16 AM)

  • From: Vancouver, WA
  • Registered: 2009-11-24
  • Posts: 934

Re: Keep it a 2.2 4-pot?...

How about a 2.5L TBI?

We've got 11 races in now with 100% reliability rate, starting with fresh rings and bearings.

The Scamp just finished a 24 hour race and the only mechanical failure was a motor mount bolt working itself loose.

Be warned though... due to the lower compression, it doesn't feel any faster than a 2.2L... It makes torque for days and no horsepower. Shift at 4k for fuel conservation mode or 5k for race mode.

Both the Caravan and Scamp run 1990+ common block 2.5L motors. If you want to tweak a little, turbo valve springs are stiffer and make for happier high-RPM operation.

Both engines run 2.2L common block oil pans with deleted balance shafts... the 2.2L pan is better for preventing oil starvation.

If you want to shift the power band around a little, the 2.2L cam gear on a 2.5L will retard the cam 2 degrees... likewise, a 2.5L cam gear on a 2.2L will advance the cam 2 degrees.

A turbo valve cover has a nice oil baffle built into it that will prevent barfing oil out the PCV setup.... otherwise you can puke up to 1 qt over a couple hours... not so good.

Lorin Mueller
Scuderia Asino formerly Team Haulin' Ass - 83 Plymouth Scamp
Team Soccer Moms - 93 Dodge Caravan
  • From: Rockville, MD
  • Registered: 2010-12-15
  • Posts: 1,155

Re: Keep it a 2.2 4-pot?...

Team Sensory Assault wrote:
mechimike wrote:
Team Sensory Assault wrote:

Nope, we have classified dyno sheets (not butt dyno) - and you ain't even close.   big_smile

For all RPMs that both the 460 and the rotary can both spin at, I'll wager the 460 makes more power AND torque.  ;-)

Oh goodie!   

What you prepared to lose in this wager?  smile

Um, given that an average 460 makes over 350lb/ft of torque from 2K rpm upwards, and you'd need at least 20psi from that same RPM falling down to, say, no less than 15psi by 5K rpm, just  to match that bottom torque figure, I'd be prepared to bet on the Ford. The only place where it could possibly lose is at the very top end where the Ford's torque starts dropping off back to ~350 and then even further down (yes, 460 losing a torque war to a wankel!). If we limit "safe" rpm's for 460 to, say, 4500, which is what they should be in an endurance race, then I'm prepared to bet real actual money on this.

And if you do win, and end up racing with the same boost/setup, then I want some shattered wankel bits as souvenirs.

K Car Stalker
  • From: Alvin, TX
  • Registered: 2010-02-22
  • Posts: 2,143

Re: Keep it a 2.2 4-pot?...

firegremlin wrote:
Team Sensory Assault wrote:
mechimike wrote:

For all RPMs that both the 460 and the rotary can both spin at, I'll wager the 460 makes more power AND torque.  ;-)

Oh goodie!   

What you prepared to lose in this wager?  smile

Um, given that an average 460 makes over 350lb/ft of torque from 2K rpm upwards, and you'd need at least 20psi from that same RPM falling down to, say, no less than 15psi by 5K rpm, just  to match that bottom torque figure, I'd be prepared to bet on the Ford. The only place where it could possibly lose is at the very top end where the Ford's torque starts dropping off back to ~350 and then even further down (yes, 460 losing a torque war to a wankel!). If we limit "safe" rpm's for 460 to, say, 4500, which is what they should be in an endurance race, then I'm prepared to bet real actual money on this.

And if you do win, and end up racing with the same boost/setup, then I want some shattered wankel bits as souvenirs.

We are betting to 5K.   If the 460 AND the rotary can do it - thats what we're doing.   No sandbagging allowed.  smile

The 460 has to make more power AND torque.   If it doesn't make both, its a loss for the ford.   

Besides, at the end of the day its just a Ford - so it loses anyway.

Dangerous Banned Technology (NOLA 09), Judges Choice (Houston 2010), Organizers Choice (NOLA 2010), Most Heroic Fix (Dallas 2010), $100 from Jay's Pocket (Dallas 2010), Dangerous Homemade Technology (NOLA 2010), Ununhexium Legends of Lemons Status,  Index of Effluency (Dallas 2011), Most Heroic Fix - (Houston 2011), Index of Effluency (TWS - 2012), Organizers Choice (Dallas 2013)
  • From: Alvin, TX
  • Registered: 2010-02-22
  • Posts: 2,143

Re: Keep it a 2.2 4-pot?...

AND I'm gonna call the LTD out on 280hp for good measure.   

I'll wager a retheme if it can make 180hp.  big_smile

Dangerous Banned Technology (NOLA 09), Judges Choice (Houston 2010), Organizers Choice (NOLA 2010), Most Heroic Fix (Dallas 2010), $100 from Jay's Pocket (Dallas 2010), Dangerous Homemade Technology (NOLA 2010), Ununhexium Legends of Lemons Status,  Index of Effluency (Dallas 2011), Most Heroic Fix - (Houston 2011), Index of Effluency (TWS - 2012), Organizers Choice (Dallas 2013)

68 Reply by NSF

  • NSF
  • NSF
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  • From: Cocoa, FL
  • Registered: 2010-06-26
  • Posts: 4,055

Re: Keep it a 2.2 4-pot?...

Tug-of-War?

This space for rent.
  • From: Rockville, MD
  • Registered: 2010-12-15
  • Posts: 1,155

Re: Keep it a 2.2 4-pot?...

I was like that once.

Then I've realized that using high-displacement motors is like bombing near-defenseless third world countries with world's largest air force. I've never scoffed at oversized pushrod V8's since then.

K Car Stalker

70 Reply by psychoboy (edited by psychoboy 2013-05-16 02:16 PM)

  • From: oklahoma city
  • Registered: 2009-10-08
  • Posts: 1,586

Re: Keep it a 2.2 4-pot?...

NSF wrote:

Tug-of-War?

we've got a couple billy bad ass street racers on my local board who are constantly threatening to 'drag to ass' of any 200-400 hp car that wants to step up.

i'm sure they mean drag race, but i've offered my vehicle and twenty five feet of log chain...just in case.

it's only 156 hp, but i'll give them a head start.
the LSD and 5000 lbs of dead weight should tip the scales in my favor easily enough.

Team OK-Speed
Regularly losing in Class A
Soon to start losing in Class C
  • Registered: 2011-01-04
  • Posts: 209

Re: Keep it a 2.2 4-pot?...

firegremlin wrote:
frankdtank00 wrote:

just wanted to make sure you had ALL your request submitted.....

- Yeah, three cheeseburgers, two large fries, two chocolate shakes and one large coke.

- ... And some flapjacks.

- Too early for flapjacks?

big_smile

Its never to early for flapjacks!

2011 Organizers choice at Garrapatas Peligrosas GP as a Rookie team! 2011 Yee-Haw its Lemons Scruffy Nerf Herder 1991 Dodge Daytona IROC Shelby R/T Charger, 2012 Yee-Haw its Lemons 1972 RX2 IOE WINNERS!!!!, 2012 North Dallas Hooptie the arrival of JUDGE FRANK! 2012 Gator-rama in the 1977 Mustang II, 2012 Season Ender the HONORABLE JUDGE FRANK! 2013 BFE GP in the K-Car and an I Got Screwed Award
  • From: Freeport Tx
  • Registered: 2011-02-28
  • Posts: 58

Re: Keep it a 2.2 4-pot?...

Uncovered picture of FD final dyno sheet at 9psi

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b198/rx7nut13b/1349E07E-F314-46AC-AC6B-C3AA6317DB73-84748-0000043ACB8A9784.jpg

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Re: Keep it a 2.2 4-pot?...

C2Rotary wrote:

Uncovered picture of FD final dyno sheet at 9psi

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b198/rx7nut13b/1349E07E-F314-46AC-AC6B-C3AA6317DB73-84748-0000043ACB8A9784.jpg

See, why would you do this to yourself... "hey evrabodies, look ats mah cheatie engeen!"

As Jay is often quoted, "they stepped on their own dicks."

Expect laps next go-around.  Though, I know it doesn't really matter to you boys... you silly loveable idiots!

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'10 Summit, CMP3, Autobahn, '11 CMP1, NJMP, CMP2, Summit, G'man, Stafford, Charlotte, Autobahn, ECR '12 CMP1, NJMP, G'man, NHMS1, Summit, CMP2, NHMS2, ECR, '13 CMP1, ECR, Summit, NJMP, THill, CMP2, MSR, NHMS, Sears '14 Barber, Sears1, ECR, CMP1, NJMP1, BWillow, Sebring, CMP2, THill, Sears2, '15 Sears1, Barber, Ridge, THill, '16 Sears1
  • From: College Station, Texas
  • Registered: 2009-07-11
  • Posts: 1,137

Re: Keep it a 2.2 4-pot?...

Like every 5.0 in Lemons doesn't already make that sort of power.

the Syndicate - 30 losses and counting ...
89 VW Jettarosa - #337 (11 motors later) <> 67 Mercedes 200 - #200, winner "most with the least" MSR Feb 11, IOE at MSR June 11 <> 88 Mercedes 560 SEL <> 76 Mercedes SLC - IOE at ECR March 13 <> now pimping performance parts for 1970-1980's Mercedes SEL, SEC, SL, SLC's
  • DC Doug
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Re: Keep it a 2.2 4-pot?...

Not in a 2,200lb car they don't.

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'10 Summit, CMP3, Autobahn, '11 CMP1, NJMP, CMP2, Summit, G'man, Stafford, Charlotte, Autobahn, ECR '12 CMP1, NJMP, G'man, NHMS1, Summit, CMP2, NHMS2, ECR, '13 CMP1, ECR, Summit, NJMP, THill, CMP2, MSR, NHMS, Sears '14 Barber, Sears1, ECR, CMP1, NJMP1, BWillow, Sebring, CMP2, THill, Sears2, '15 Sears1, Barber, Ridge, THill, '16 Sears1