[ Closed ] chump's 36 (Page 2 of 2)

Not going to go crazy here I know opinions are difficult to change, both series suffer from misnomers but even some chumps in good standing apparently have it wrong, this was just earlier today, the head chump correcting something he did not like and clarifying his point again and with a quickness.

" Posted Today, 04:34 PM

red0, on 10 Jul 2013 - 3:58 PM, said:

    Bump drafting is OK in some circumstances. Last year at MIS the Saturns were bump drafting, and it worked great. They beat me by one spot on Sunday, and I applaud them. Everyone at the track thought it was pretty sweet.

No, it's not okay.

8.5. Black Flag Use and Penalties
8.5.1. The Chief Steward will use his/her discretion if and/or when to apply a Black Flag for the following driver (on-track) incidents and/or infractions, based on the frequency and/or severity of the infraction:

    Four-off / Spins
    Over-driving/Unsafe Driving
    Blocking or Unsafe/Incomplete Pass
    Contact of ANY Kind

The last time I checked, bump-drafting involved CONTACT."

Yeah, that'll be the pushing car...

I'm not knocking the other series and I am loath to see and/or participate in the inter-series bickering.  I've done 22-odd Lemons races and two CC races.  Some have mentioned regional differences in rules enforcement or driver/team behavior.  I've done the VIR 24 and the recent Daytona 14 hour race.  Maybe it's the massive field of 'east coast' racers that's difficult for them to deal with versus much smaller fields at many of their events.  I don't know, but what I've seen in the last nine months at two major CC races is that they run their race per their rulebook... all the stuff we're talking about is indeed prohibited in their rulebook AND they flag/penalize at their discretion.  That's what concerns me about CC.  They underwhelm me with their policing of dangerous driving.

I've seen a lot of over-driving there and a ton of contact - like every team I knew at VIR and Daytona (a large % of the field) had contact.  Many had contact more than once.  How many spins does it take to get a driver flagged in?  How many times are they going to allow a pickup to replace its front bumper before they sit them out?  Sure, I'd be glad for Lemons to loosen up on 1-2-3 offs and incidental contact, but in the end it makes for a safer weekend on the whole.  These are budget racing series... how would you feel about your car getting balled up by some team or driver that's been out of control, over-driving, or outright hostile all weekend long without penalty?

Lemons: if we see it we'll flag it.
CC: if we see it we'll flag it if you do it all day/night long, maybe.

It not wrong, it's just different.  Which, I suppose, is why there's a market for both series.

Hey Doug, well said. +1 for you in a thread that could spin out of control & catch fire at any time. Kudos.

With Chump (as in Lemons), every single spin and off is called in to race control.  It's up to race control to decide what to do about it.  On spins/offs, I know you'll be brought in for three in an hour---I think two in half an hour should be flagged if it isn't already.  On contact, I think the current standard is that avoidable contact is flagged, so the discretion for the corner workers lies in determining what's "avoidable".  I don't know if there's regional variation here, some races have more detailed in-progress updates than others.  The detailed updates lead me to believe that the flagging for contact is more aggressive now, but I know from working a race then that corners were being asked to call fault on contact back in November 2011 (partly spurred on by the infamous Nelson Ledges race).

Something to keep in mind with Chump is that black flag is not nearly as conspicuous as the Lemons penalty box.  I think sometimes people who are on the wrong end of asshat driving don't realize that the offender was brought in to serve a time penalty (or a driver change) because it's not blindingly obvious.  There's an additional issue when yellow flags are involved, because standard practice is not to bring out the black flags until the course is under green, something that I think Lemons does as well.

None of this is to say that Chump is currently on the right side of the line in controlling overly aggressive or overly incompetent driving.

*Puts on Flame Suit*

There is a lot of Bull posted in this thread.

I started out running Crap Can racing in Lemons. I played by the rules 100%. Who buys a 1981 Malibu 4 door and makes it a road racing car? We did several races at MSR in Houston. We prided ourselves in throwing that Chicane of a car around that track and avoiding faster cars, going off track and black flags. Hell we finished 19th out of 130 cars one race in our brick. We won the "Most with the Least" award. But I doubt I will race another Lemons race again.

Our last race we ran Saturday without one black flag. Clean fun race. Sunday rolls around and all of a sudden "Phantom" Black Flags started rolling in... Our in car video showed using rumble strips but no tires off. One driver did spin but it was because another car chopped the corner banging our drivers front quarter panel. We were flagged, the other car rolls on. We then get Black flagged again and when we come in we are told its because we "Avoided a black flag". It was obvious we were not wanted at the race. One Lemons Staff member said it was from the MSR people not Lemons but we trailered the car and haven't been back since. It was at that race a "Chumps" driver said we should give them a try.

I pay my money to race. By my car choice I'm not a "Must Podium" kind of racer (Although it would be nice). I just love the experience. I still have the Malibu but now drive a Escort ZX2 in chumps. Still shaking the car out and having a blast racing it. We just finished running the whole weekend at TWS. Did I see contact? Yes but just as much as I do in Lemons. Did we drop a tire off the track? Probably but we kept racing. Did we see spins? Yep, but enter the track safely and keep racing. Do it a lot they bring you in..switch drivers and KEEP RACING. We pay our money for seat time in the race car.

I do not mind the rules and rulebook of Chumps. I have no problems with it. I have never felt "Unsafe" running a Chumps event.

I still have friends that run the Lemons series. There are a lot of teams that run both Chumps and Lemons. I'm glad people have a choice, for now Chumps is a better experience for me and my race car.

Carry on.....

Maybe you're more experienced and skilled now.....or maybe Lemons has changed.

We are getting off topic again. How does this sound? You get one piece of bacon for every drafting assist you give a simca.

I thought the purpose of the Driver's Lounge was to have a place for "off topic" discussion.

So, who's looking forward to Thunderhill? We have both cars accepted... now we just need to get them ready!

I dread working the 24-straight-hour races. I can't even imagine doing 36 hours.