• Troy
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Topic: Why the 190 Treadwear Requirement?

I've been shopping for tires recently and I just don't understand why or how they came up with the 190 treadwear limit.  There are a lot of interesting options in 180 treadwear tires.  I don't know what sizes they offer since I haven't look much because they don't meet our requirements.

Running 14" or 15" tires results in a pretty limited selection of tires and sizes but the prices are lower then larger sizes..

I have been running Toyo T1Rs and can get more even though my size has been discontinued.

I would have liked to have gone to the Hankook RS-2 in a 225/45r15 except they were discontinued in addition to appearing to be Sold Out.  I might get lucky and find some.

The Falken Azenis are available in a 195/60r14 or 204/50r15.  They are very common and popular in Lemons.  Grassroots rated them the best Auto Cross tire.  However, we aren't Auto Crossing, we are Road Racing. 

I've heard mixed reviews on the Azenis, some people have said they get greasy after 5 or 6 laps.  With most Auto Crosses being about minute or so, they only have to perform for a very short time period.  In addition to that, they have a new compound which should be available in the beginning of March.  I don't know who that will affect tire performance either.

I got a report that a Dunlop is 1 second slower than an RA1 on a Miata but I haven't been able to confirm that or which specific Dunlop they are referring to.

While I would like to go as fast as we can, being an enduro, consistency and predictability are really more important.  I think consistency and predictability are going to make the car easier to driver for less experienced drivers.

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z

2 Reply by Spank (edited by Spank 2009-12-02 09:02 AM)

  • Spank
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Re: Why the 190 Treadwear Requirement?

Try finding 190 treadwear tires in 10" diameter...

or ANY DOT-approved tires in 10" diameter... (Goodyear Double Eagles don't count-- golf cart tires that if taken over 25mph feel like you are driving with no lug nuts)

(10" and 12" tires are exempt from the UTQG...)

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  • RobL
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Re: Why the 190 Treadwear Requirement?

what's the question here?  Troy, can't you find tires?

Anything less than 190 and you really start getting into race tire territory, is that what you want?

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We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
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  • Registered: 2009-05-13
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Re: Why the 190 Treadwear Requirement?

Troy wrote:

I've been shopping for tires recently and I just don't understand why or how they came up with the 190 treadwear limit.  There are a lot of interesting options in 180 treadwear tires.

I think you just answered your own question.  Good tires can make incredible differences in lap times, cost a lot of money, but don't really make the racing any more interesting.  So make everyone run on crappy ones.

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Re: Why the 190 Treadwear Requirement?

The Nitto NT05 looks like an interesting tire and it's UTQG 200, but it only comes in 17" or bigger. Boo.

We've run Azenis on the MR2 and even did so for about 9 hours last February. I only had 2 laps toward the end of my 2:30 stint where I thought that they might have been getting greasy, but really I think that I was just overdriving the tires. They are predictable and wear well and let you know well in advance before they let go, so they are good in that regard for the less experienced drivers.

We know that faster lap times doesn't really translate into greater success at Lemons, so I wouldn't get caught up in looking for the "fastest" tire.

Having said that (I hope there are other Curb fans out there), I would love to have a couple thousand bucks in extra cash sitting around to try out some superlight 17" alloys and those Nittos. That would be fun.

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

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  • From: Portland
  • Registered: 2009-05-02
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Re: Why the 190 Treadwear Requirement?

Troy wrote:

Running 14" or 15" tires results in a pretty limited selection of tires and sizes but the prices are lower then larger sizes..

Time for bigger wheels Troy...  Big hammer = rolled fenders

The * Spec is the new "flavor of the month" auto-x tire and supposedly handle better than the 615's.  We continue to run cheaper 300 treadwear tires because the extra 2 seconds a lap is completely irrelevant if you get 5 black flags per weekend.

We got 4 Dunlop Direzza DZ 101's mounted and balanced for about $220 at Discount Tire in Portland

Matt
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Re: Why the 190 Treadwear Requirement?

I'd like to see the UTQG number go up, not down. Less grip is easier on brakes and suspension and lowers cornering speeds without taking away the fun or competition. Seems to me that racy tires don't seem to translate into wins, if the Keilbasa Kids are an example. Harder tires are also easier for novices to drive on and don't heat cycle as badly as soft compounds...They also lower costs and discourage expensive plus-sizing. Give me 230 or 240!

Jim "Endo" Anderton
30 years of racing and still not Brambilla.....

8 Reply by Sparky Pete (edited by "Sparky" Pete 2009-12-02 10:53 AM)

  • From: WOOTville USA
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Re: Why the 190 Treadwear Requirement?

Falken Azenis just plain suck. After heat cycling they stick too much and made our drivers stupid.

And 2 of ours lost their beads then went flat for no reason.
(<---see avatar)

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Re: Why the 190 Treadwear Requirement?

jimeditorial wrote:

I'd like to see the UTQG number go up, not down. Less grip is easier on brakes and suspension and lowers cornering speeds without taking away the fun or competition.

I think you're exactly right.  If Lemons cars started running real race tires, we wouldn't see faster lap times-- we'd just see a lot more broken suspension parts.

10 Reply by Troy (edited by Troy 2009-12-02 10:49 AM)

  • Troy
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Re: Why the 190 Treadwear Requirement?

I am not sure where race tires break suspension parts but I guess a stronger work out could result in more issues.

My fenders have plenty of wheel clearance.  Old Z cars have a 0-5 mm offset so wheels are harder to find and pricier.  I am going to try to make my own 5 lug conversion along with some other stuff and assuming it works, I'll have better options.

Currently, we do run some of the faster lap times so we probably work out our tires more.  We have a welded diff because a LSD ain't in the budget which adds to the tires stress and increases the demand we put on the tires.

I think our car weighs about 2400 pounds and makes maybe 175 hp if it's running right.  It's a Z so the running right thing is a challenge.

One problem I have with the Azenis is they have an inside and outside and are not designed to be flipped.  So we will likely trash the inside of the tires due to the camber.

We have a bunch of camber to help with the push from the welded diff.  Realistically, an LSD would be cheaper and easier in the long run due to longer tire life and the car would be easier to drive.  Unfortunately, I haven't found one I can keep under the $500 limit so we're welded.

I got to try a set of 23.5 x 9.5 Hoosier slicks and they are AWESOME!!!

Since the majority of the field in Lemons are mid-80s to mid-90s cars we have a higher demand for performance type tires in 13-15" sizes.  Unfortunately, the current market for tires like we want are primarily 17-18." 

Jimeditorial, "Less grip is easier on brakes and suspension and lowers cornering speeds without taking away the fun or competition."  Less grip is easier on the brakes, they just lock right up and start flat spotting the tires.  Corner speeds go right out the window as you slide off track.

I think power and weight play a big role in a tires performance.  Suspension is a huge factor too.  I looked at a Miatas suspension the other day, dual A-arms on all 4 corners.  That blows away our McPherson Struts which more or less has variable camber based on ride height. 

I just don't know how to determine the best tire and size for a particular car.  I like short, fat grippy tires.  Shorter tires increase acceleration along with braking which makes modulation more difficult.

While I would like to go fast, consistence is more important.

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z
  • VKZ24
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Re: Why the 190 Treadwear Requirement?

Troy wrote:

I I think our car weighs about 2400 pounds and makes maybe 175 hp if it's running right.  It's a Z so the running right thing is a challenge.

Wow, that HP/weight ratio does not suck.  We have about the same weight with 50 less HP.

Troy wrote:

One problem I have with the Azenis is they have an inside and outside and are not designed to be flipped.  So we will likely trash the inside of the tires due to the camber.

They say that, but I can tell you from experience that in the life of a tire (used for our purposes) it makes NO difference that the tread is asymetrical.  I have ran Azenis flipped and no-flipped and they feel exactly the same.

I still say the magic to these tires is not to exceed 40PSI when hot.  At 40PSI and below they don't get greasy in my experience.

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Re: Why the 190 Treadwear Requirement?

Troy wrote:

I am not sure where race tires break suspension parts (insert typical endless Troy rant here) consistence is more important.

I've been pushing for a special penalty that mandates the installation of four space-saver spares on the miscreant's car. You can be the test case!

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  • From: Bend, Or
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Re: Why the 190 Treadwear Requirement?

jimeditorial wrote:

I'd like to see the UTQG number go up, not down. Less grip is easier on brakes and suspension and lowers cornering speeds without taking away the fun or competition. Seems to me that racy tires don't seem to translate into wins, if the Keilbasa Kids are an example. Harder tires are also easier for novices to drive on and don't heat cycle as badly as soft compounds...They also lower costs and discourage expensive plus-sizing. Give me 230 or 240!

That probably explains the 5 sets of front brakes on the caddy...we ran 300tread tires in thunderhill and anihalated brake pads, calipers, and rotors...in fernley we ran used hard unknown treadwear tires and burned up like 8 tires but only used 2 sets of pads in the weekend.  Mabey find some middle ground for the next go.

  • bob-e
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Re: Why the 190 Treadwear Requirement?

I think Azenis are the ringer Lemons tire.  They won't have the fastest lap time, but I bet they will be faster on average.  They really do well from stickered to a million heat cycles.  I fought for Star Specs and won, but after the front chunked during the 2nd stint, they obviously went off. 

Lemons is expensive enough without having to buy Hoosiers.  I'm thankful for the tire rule.

  • RobL
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Re: Why the 190 Treadwear Requirement?

Troy wrote:

So we will likely trash the inside of the tires due to the camber.

If you are trashing the insides of the tires, you are running too much camber and toe. 

Troy wrote:

Since the majority of the field in Lemons are mid-80s to mid-90s cars we have a higher demand for performance type tires in 13-15" sizes.  Unfortunately, the current market for tires like we want are primarily 17-18."

You need to define "performance type tire" better in what we want to do.  These are not sprint races.  We are not sacrificing tire rubber for performance.  Given any tire choice I could make for Lemons - I would likely end up with the tires that are on our car. 

Troy wrote:

Jimeditorial, "Less grip is easier on brakes and suspension and lowers cornering speeds without taking away the fun or competition."  Less grip is easier on the brakes, they just lock right up and start flat spotting the tires.  Corner speeds go right out the window as you slide off track.

And race tires give very little indication that they are about to let loose.  They don't scream like a street tire before letting go.  Most of the tire you are recovering from a spin before you even know what happened. 

Troy wrote:

I think power and weight play a big role in a tires performance.  Suspension is a huge factor too.  I looked at a Miatas suspension the other day, dual A-arms on all 4 corners.  That blows away our McPherson Struts which more or less has variable camber based on ride height.

Red herring.  Given the basically open suspension rules that we have, you can make a strut car have preditable camber curves and spring rates high enough that you can just set your static camber and not have to worry about it. 

Troy wrote:

I just don't know how to determine the best tire and size for a particular car.  I like short, fat grippy tires.  Shorter tires increase acceleration along with braking which makes modulation more difficult.

I think we found our problem.

Troy wrote:

While I would like to go fast, consistence is more important.

Then why are you looking for "race" tires.  Race tires go off and get slick after a time.  They also wear at sometimes outrageous rates.  A typical 20 lap sprint race will totally destroy a set of Hoosiers on my Solstice.  They go off after about 10.

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We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

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Re: Why the 190 Treadwear Requirement?

MurileeMartin wrote:
Troy wrote:

I am not sure where race tires break suspension parts (insert typical endless Troy rant here) consistence is more important.

I've been pushing for a special penalty that mandates the installation of four space-saver spares on the miscreant's car. You can be the test case!

That is so evil and perfect all at the same time.

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17 Reply by laz

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Re: Why the 190 Treadwear Requirement?

Troy, we went with the Dunlop Direzza z1 star spec. It's better than the Azeni in the wet by far, and a little better in the dry (the 195 width is almost as wide as the falken's 205 in 15" fitment). Having a slight tire advantage allows a less experienced  driver avoid incidents, assuming it's not assisting in causing them wink

All the "my tires got greasy" talk is people over driving their tires. Listen to the tire, drive smoother, put in a little less slip angle, and it won't get greasy on you.

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Re: Why the 190 Treadwear Requirement?

laz wrote:

All the "my tires got greasy" talk is people over driving their tires. Listen to the tire, drive smoother, put in a little less slip angle, and it won't get greasy on you.

Preach on. We've run Azenis 615s in all our races so far, and while I do agree they lose their stickiness toward the end of their life, if you don't drive like a doo-doo head they're fine.

And regarding camber wear on the tires, you probably have more of an issue with toe than camber.

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Re: Why the 190 Treadwear Requirement?

Our Azenis could have lasted the entire race.
We did a brake pad change prior to the last 1.5 hour stint, so we put on new fronts, just because.

I think we have a toe-out issue, too, as the inside shoulder on the fronts were wearing quite a bit more than the outsides.


KT

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  • Registered: 2009-05-01
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Re: Why the 190 Treadwear Requirement?

"Sparky" Pete wrote:

Falken Azenis just plain suck. After heat cycling they stick too much and made our drivers stupid.

And 2 of ours lost their beads then went flat for no reason.
(<---see avatar)

Hey Sparky I don't think Azenis is the God of Flying cars. If it were there would be a lot more cars flying off the track.:D
And Tires don't make drivers Stupid Their just stupid in general. That's why they congregate towards Lemons like bugs congregate to lights. They think if they are careful they won't get zapped!

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  • From: DF-Dubya
  • Registered: 2009-08-19
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Re: Why the 190 Treadwear Requirement?

We bought 2 sets of Azenis, swapped them out on Sat night, and they lasted 3 races. I drove 1.5 hours, from 11-12:30, on Sunday at MSRH, and they were still doing pretty well. (Other than that flat spot that I might have created after someone turned-in right in front of me at the end of the back-straight..)

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  • From: Portland
  • Registered: 2009-05-02
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Re: Why the 190 Treadwear Requirement?

RobL wrote:
Troy wrote:

I just don't know how to determine the best tire and size for a particular car.  I like short, fat grippy tires.  Shorter tires increase acceleration along with braking which makes modulation more difficult.

I think we found our problem.

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Re: Why the 190 Treadwear Requirement?

my goal for this winter is how to stuff 225 45 15 under the 914, not because we need them but because we bought three sets of them when the RS-2 were on clearance for the Q45

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Re: Why the 190 Treadwear Requirement?

we ran the Dunlop Direzza star spec Z1's on the 928 "estate" in 225/50-16 (stock) size on stock 16x7 rims....I am VERY happy with them...excellent grip and treadwear and the tire doesn't go away after some hot laps....I never noticed a significant loss of grip over the course of my 2 hour stint..maybe a slight drop in braking coming into 10....but just a tiny bit.... 

Treadwear was also excellent...1 set will last at least 4 race days (two Lemons events) or more....the "estate" is NOT light...3150+ with driver...we bought and mounted 6 wheels-tires and only had 1 flat due to a bad valve stem.....

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/Sizes.jsp … +Star+Spec

The bummer is the smallest tire they make is a 195/55-15.....everything else is 16+

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Re: Why the 190 Treadwear Requirement?

the head wrote:

my goal for this winter is how to stuff 225 45 15 under the 914, not because we need them but because we bought three sets of them when the RS-2 were on clearance for the Q45

I have some ideas on how to make $50 flares.


KT

TH 2009- 40th ~ SP 2010- 13th Class Bad win!! TH 2010- 17th ~TH 2010- 16th  SP 2011- 20th ~ RF 2011- 13th Least Horrible Yank Tank ~ TH 2011- 79th
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