Topic: People who track their street cars/HPDE come in here

I hate to bring this up as this discussion tends to get over the top but as a former insurance agent I just wanted to provide a PSA to take a good look at your policy again should you only have a street car policy.  Many people have found a loophole basically allowing for a HPDE or autocross to be covered on many of their policies because they are not racing.  I always review my policies and I have found that Allstate's current policy now reads as follows:

"Exclusions (11) Property damage arising out of the participation in any prearranged, organized, or spontaneous
a) racing contest
b) speed contest; or
c) use of an auto
at a track or course designed or used for racing or high performance driving
, or in practice or preparation for any contest or use of this type"

Please note the bolded section.  The short version is if you are at a HPDE, a track day, even parade laps on a track, OR at an autocross (hence the "course designed for hp driving", they will deny your claim.  I don't have a copy of my old GEICO policy to confirm this change there, but IIRC theirs was just as strict in the past as this is now. 

If you think you can argue it good luck, having worked for one of the big ones, and knowing people who still work there, you aren't going to win.  Just something to keep in mind fellas.

Tom Lomino - Proud to be a 23x Lemons Loser, 3x Class B, and 1x IOE Winner!
Craptain, Team Farfrumwinnin - 1995 Volkswagen Golf #14
Click here to "Like" us on Facebook   Click here for our Youtube Videos
Lifetime Achievement (of hopelessness) Award Winners

Re: People who track their street cars/HPDE come in here

That's new, isn't it?  I thought the HPDE loophole was the reason that some HPDE groups were so adamantly opposed to doing lap timing or even having a data recorder in the car.  If there is no timing, then it is not a "timed competition event", and so was just a drive on the parkway.

Jim C.
If God meant for us to race, we'd all have baggy Nomex skin.
08TMS.09NL.10GM, SP, NL.11SP, NL.12SP, VIR, NL.13GM, NJ.14NJ, VIR, WGI.15AB.16GM.17NCM.18GM.19...

Re: People who track their street cars/HPDE come in here

I saved a buttload on my car insurance by being uninsured.

Team Lost in the Dark
Winner " I got screwed" and "Jay's dream car"
2012 Gulf region champs

Re: People who track their street cars/HPDE come in here

Baron wrote:

I saved a buttload on my car insurance by being uninsured.

I bet that took 15 minutes or less.

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.

Re: People who track their street cars/HPDE come in here

FJ40Jim wrote:

That's new, isn't it?  I thought the HPDE loophole was the reason that some HPDE groups were so adamantly opposed to doing lap timing or even having a data recorder in the car.  If there is no timing, then it is not a "timed competition event", and so was just a drive on the parkway.

Yes it is fairly new.  My Insurance licenses expired about 6 or so years ago, but yes most companies policies used to list it as a "timed competition".  The insurers seem to have caught on to that.  GEICO was the first, their policy from years ago IIRC was written in this way (to the point that if you got into an accident in a parking lot while attending a NASCAR race they could probably deny you). 

The way this is written you can be denied for simply driving on a race track (hence "use of auto").  Keep this in mind all.

Tom Lomino - Proud to be a 23x Lemons Loser, 3x Class B, and 1x IOE Winner!
Craptain, Team Farfrumwinnin - 1995 Volkswagen Golf #14
Click here to "Like" us on Facebook   Click here for our Youtube Videos
Lifetime Achievement (of hopelessness) Award Winners

Re: People who track their street cars/HPDE come in here

I used these guys when I took my daily driver for a track day: http://locktonmotorsports.com/product/track-insurance/.  It was $75 to cover an entire 3-day weekend (car valued at $9000 according to KBB).  I don't remember if I even bothered looking at my regular policy to see if would be covered.

I remember asking around about this question in 2000 when I first did an HPDE, and most responses I heard were "check your policy, but it's probably not covered," so I don't think it's that new.

15x+ Loser, thinks he's a Real Racer(tm)
Rotaries are great, everyone should try them.

Re: People who track their street cars/HPDE come in here

Disclosure: I work for an auto insurance company, though not that one (thank god...they are my least favorite to deal with).

That's certainly more restrictive policy language than we have.  It will all come down to the individual adjuster and their manager and their interpretation of the policy language.

A few years ago we ended up paying out on a Z06 that wiped out during an HPDE at Pocono.  They were ready to deny it, but I worked with the adjuster, who had no idea what HPDEs were, to show that it didn't check the boxes for the exclusion to apply, so they paid it.  I'm sure that underwriting dropped the guy shortly after, but we paid for his Vette. 

Either way, there's a reason that I don't bring my M Coupe on the track...I assume that if anything happened it would be on my own dime, and writing off a fairly new BMW would really hurt.  Writing off one of the Lemons cars would hurt, but not nearly as much, and there is more safety gear.

Chris from 3 Pedal Mafia

Re: People who track their street cars/HPDE come in here

Every year when I renew my policy I call AAA, who I had a policy with for many years, to see if they'd cover me at track days, saying that I'd be willing to pay a little more, etc. They seemed confused and weren't able to comment on this, for several years running, then tried to convince me that paying more than I am already paying for a basic policy is better because they used local adjusters, or something. They couldn't tell me why having local adjusters was better. In return I told them that not covering track days was short-sighted, that as an instructor for novices for years I had seem many people completely change their attitudes about speeding and driving in general, and how after only one day at they track they suddenly realized how dangerous it was on the public highways, where skills were minimal and people were barely paying attention to what they were doing. I'm thinking track days would be good investment for insurance companies.

Re: People who track their street cars/HPDE come in here

Sonic wrote:

Disclosure: I work for an auto insurance company, though not that one (thank god...they are my least favorite to deal with).

That's certainly more restrictive policy language than we have.  It will all come down to the individual adjuster and their manager and their interpretation of the policy language.

A few years ago we ended up paying out on a Z06 that wiped out during an HPDE at Pocono.  They were ready to deny it, but I worked with the adjuster, who had no idea what HPDEs were, to show that it didn't check the boxes for the exclusion to apply, so they paid it.  I'm sure that underwriting dropped the guy shortly after, but we paid for his Vette. 

Either way, there's a reason that I don't bring my M Coupe on the track...I assume that if anything happened it would be on my own dime, and writing off a fairly new BMW would really hurt.  Writing off one of the Lemons cars would hurt, but not nearly as much, and there is more safety gear.

Yeah most language prior to me seeing this usually was open to HPDE's (except GEICO).  Seems thats gone now.  Maybe one too many wiped out a car on the track?

m610 wrote:

Every year when I renew my policy I call AAA, who I had a policy with for many years, to see if they'd cover me at track days, saying that I'd be willing to pay a little more, etc. They seemed confused and weren't able to comment on this, for several years running, then tried to convince me that paying more than I am already paying for a basic policy is better because they used local adjusters, or something. They couldn't tell me why having local adjusters was better. In return I told them that not covering track days was short-sighted, that as an instructor for novices for years I had seem many people completely change their attitudes about speeding and driving in general, and how after only one day at they track they suddenly realized how dangerous it was on the public highways, where skills were minimal and people were barely paying attention to what they were doing. I'm thinking track days would be good investment for insurance companies.

Unfortunately in Insurance theres no room to let the good ones through, folks will always find a way to take advantage.  I left the company I worked for 6 years ago, about a year prior to that I recall a claim on a WRX that the company was working on.   Came in as "lost control on a road, hit a guardrail".  The adjuster looked closely at the car and noticed residue from racing numbers, contingency decals, etc on the sides/doors, as well as a 4 point cage in the car and other racing equipment.  A bit more research found this guy wadded the car during a race event at Pocono and dumped it on the side of the road to try and collect.  Needless to say he didn't.

For every 1 person that HPDE's help, there will be 10 jerks who race their cars and wreck them and try to make a claim.  Insurance companies play the odds.

Tom Lomino - Proud to be a 23x Lemons Loser, 3x Class B, and 1x IOE Winner!
Craptain, Team Farfrumwinnin - 1995 Volkswagen Golf #14
Click here to "Like" us on Facebook   Click here for our Youtube Videos
Lifetime Achievement (of hopelessness) Award Winners

Re: People who track their street cars/HPDE come in here

I had our mercedes tagged and insured (providing required photos, for classic tags and a limited use policy, which had been taken prior to its glorious transformation into a "racecar").  The local paper did a write up on our team, including pictures.  I immediately got a call from my insurance agent telling me that her company was not in the business of insuring race cars and that technically she was supposed to cancel ALL of my auto policies because now she knows about the racing.  She didn't cancel anything but only because I agreed to cancel the Mercedes policy.  I would never expect damage ON (not "at") a track to be covered, but I really would like to keep the cars street legal for ease of moving them around and testing.  Tread lightly.

Rally Baby 87 Audi 4KQ, Audi 90 Quattro Coupe, 1975 Mercedes R107, 87 E30s, E36s, the Whorenet, Rocco...
J. Phil: "Audis Never Win".  He might be right.But!, the K Dominates 2013 NJ and NH (not, but...). 
Stafford 2011 podium, 2nd NJMP 2013, Summit Point 2012 "WV ASSimilation award"
NJMP 2012 Organizer's Choice - R107, 2013 Monticello IOE Whorenet ! Organizers, CMP fall 2013 w/NSF

Re: People who track their street cars/HPDE come in here

Mike C. wrote:

I would never expect damage ON (not "at") a track to be covered, but I really would like to keep the cars street legal for ease of moving them around and testing.

Ditto.

Re: People who track their street cars/HPDE come in here

Mike C. wrote:

I would never expect damage ON (not "at") a track to be covered, but I really would like to keep the cars street legal for ease of moving them around and testing.  Tread lightly.

While all us sensible people agree to that, theres way too many bad apples that would screw that up (like the guy I mentioned).   If theres one thing I learned working in insurance, they don't trust people to be honest, and sadly with good reason because most people feel because they spent money on a product  they have all the rights in the world despite what they agreed to.  If you want to lose faith in the human race, work for an insurance company, you'll see it on both sides.

Tom Lomino - Proud to be a 23x Lemons Loser, 3x Class B, and 1x IOE Winner!
Craptain, Team Farfrumwinnin - 1995 Volkswagen Golf #14
Click here to "Like" us on Facebook   Click here for our Youtube Videos
Lifetime Achievement (of hopelessness) Award Winners

Re: People who track their street cars/HPDE come in here

I told my (Country Financial) agent before I started what I was planning to do with my Lemons car.  It's covered when used on the street, as far as fixing anybody else's shit if I get in an accident.  But I'm on my own on the track - as I fully expected to be.

A&D: 2011 Autobahn, 2012 Gingerman, 2012 Road America, 2012 Autobahn II, 2013 Gator-O-Rama (True 24!)
Sir Jackie Stewart's Coin Purse Racing
2013 Chubba Cheddar Enduro - Organizer's Choice, 2014 Doing Time in Joliet
http://www.facebook.com/#!/SirJackieSte … urseRacing

Re: People who track their street cars/HPDE come in here

I carry liability only on my crapcans since I usually  paid less than the deductible as a purchase price anyway. So, If I wreck my own stuff I'll fix it myself or replace it at my cost. My liability coverage is for anybody else I might hit. None of the race cars we have are tagged anyhow. I'm thinkin the Marlin is a bit much for the cops to let slide. I have drifted it around the neighborhood a couple times which is hella fun but was always scared the cops would come knockin later....

Captain of the Speedholes Wrenching #365 1965 Rambler Marlin and owner of the "Cockroach 454 Chevy Bigblock". Collector Emeritus of awful crapcans.
Earned every finish with Blood, Sweat, Tears,  Smoked brakes,dead wheelbearings, two blower explosions, and a never-ending thirst for more fuel. Finished em all! Currently hiding in a secret base in the shadow of the "Race to the Clouds".

Re: People who track their street cars/HPDE come in here

Racin_G73 wrote:

I told my (Country Financial) agent before I started what I was planning to do with my Lemons car.  It's covered when used on the street, as far as fixing anybody else's shit if I get in an accident.  But I'm on my own on the track - as I fully expected to be.

I did the same, told my insurance agent that the Tinyvette was a streetable race car that I needed to be able to drive to/from events and shops. They insured it.