• From: Tampa, Florida
  • Registered: 2009-05-05
  • Posts: 121

Topic: You don't have to be fast to win Lemons... or do you?

Edit:  If you are looking for a point to this thread, there isn’t one.   I’m just typing out loud so if your time is valuable, you may want to skip this one.

Although this may have been true in the early days of Lemons, I think this way of thinking may be outdated now, especially down here in the south.  The top 10 at CMP last fall was very, very good.

Don’t get me wrong, the most important part of doing well is definitely driving a clean, mistake free race but if you are looking for an overall win, this will not be enough.

Last fall, we ran a really good race.  We had one black flag (quick in and out after driver change), no breakdowns, and our car was top 5 for fastest lap.  Yet we only took 4th.

We are already doing minimal driver changes (2 to 2.5 hour stints dependent on fatigue) and we could possibly clean up our stops to shave off a few minutes (already only pitting during yellow) but even without that black flag, we would have still lost by a good 15 laps.  We took it easy on day one to avoid getting crushed but on day 2, we still gave up 7 laps to the two leaders.

What’s the difference then between the two leaders and us?  It wasn’t that they ran a cleaner race (they also got one black flag apiece); it was because they had more power (at least that was the case with Lightning McQueen), handled better, and/or had better drivers.  Simply put, they were faster than us.

Running a clean, intelligent race got us to 4th, but, to improve on that, we need to get faster.  Adding power is not an option as we do not was to lose reliability and driving more aggressively is also not an option as we do not want to get black flagged, in an accident, get crushed, or all three so our remaining options are:  handling, braking, and driving skills.

Improving our driving skills is a no brainer but how do we improve on the other two without spending money?  We already have adequate brakes and tires so the next step was to lose weight.  Most of the superfluous stuff had already been 86ed but by removing sound deadening and unused wiring, we figure we may be about 75 pounds lighter.  All glass (except the windshield), headlights, and rear hatch are removed before racing so no additional loss there.  The only other weight loss now is with the drivers and, unfortunately, we likes our beer and chicken wings.  We have also been tweaking the handling and I think we have it about as good as it is going to get.

Will it be enough to win?  Who knows.  Another factor I haven’t mentioned is luck and we don’t know if we have used all of ours up.  Hopefully not so a Z will finally take the checkered flag at a Lemons event.  I'm sure the Zs will still be the "Rodney Dangerfields" of the Lemons whips in the judges eyes but what are you gonna do, right?

  • From: Safety Harbor, FL (Tampa)
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
  • Posts: 668

Re: You don't have to be fast to win Lemons... or do you?

I drove (and broke!) your car at an autox after the race.  The handling was hideously bad.  Well, that's not quite true.  It was really good, but with one major flaw:  You CAN NOT put down any power coming out of a turn.

Fixing that one problem would put your Z in the top 3.  Of course, a Z will never win.  Bwahahaha!

Seriously, though.  It's not that your car was lacking power, just lacking the ability to USE the power effectively.

Lemons South 2008 - Fail, Lemons South Spring 2009 - Fail, Lemons Detroit(ish) 2008 - Fail, Lemons South Fall 2009 - Fail, Lamest Day 2009 - Fail, Miami 2010 (Chump) - 2nd!, Sebring 2010 (Chump) - Fail, Cuba 2010 - Crew Chief, Roebling 2011 (Chump) - 8th!, Sebring 2011(Chump) - 19th!
  • From: Oakland CA
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
  • Posts: 36

Re: You don't have to be fast to win Lemons... or do you?

Heh heh heh, with all this talk of "powur" and "handerling" distracting people, the IOE is MINE!!!

  • From: Tampa, Florida
  • Registered: 2009-05-05
  • Posts: 121

Re: You don't have to be fast to win Lemons... or do you?

Loren wrote:

I drove (and broke!) your car at an autox after the race.  The handling was hideously bad.  Well, that's not quite true.  It was really good, but with one major flaw:  You CAN NOT put down any power coming out of a turn.

Fixing that one problem would put your Z in the top 3.  Of course, a Z will never win.  Bwahahaha!

Seriously, though.  It's not that your car was lacking power, just lacking the ability to USE the power effectively.

We replaced the right rear control arm since the last time you drove (broke?) it.  It is back to handling like it was in the spring, which is actually quite good.  It also allows us to apply brakes/throttle without only being able to point straight.

You are absolutely right about us not lacking power (although our turbo 6 did somehow lose in a drag race going down the straights to a NA 4 banger VW.)  We are lacking the speed to be able to beat the top two at CMP.  THAT is what I am trying to figure out.

5 Reply by BlackSheep1 (edited by BlackSheep1 2009-12-21 08:37 AM)

  • From: Tampa, Florida
  • Registered: 2009-05-05
  • Posts: 121

Re: You don't have to be fast to win Lemons... or do you?

secorp wrote:

Heh heh heh, with all this talk of "powur" and "handerling" distracting people, the IOE is MINE!!!

Our team just had a conversation about the IOE award last weekend.  We all agreed it is something we may give two shits about after we figure out how to get the checkered flag.

  • From: Tampa, Fl
  • Registered: 2009-05-29
  • Posts: 259

Re: You don't have to be fast to win Lemons... or do you?

I would say that the race is won in the pits.  You figure at CMP every minute lost was a lap. We also took it easy the first day. We actually did our pit stops back at the garage area so we could check the oil and h20.  I guess this added about 5 minutes to each stop. So if we did 2 of the long pit stops the first day that would put you down  7 to 10 laps. Provided that the leader cars just did the fuel and driver changes in the Hot pit area.  I feel our cars were really close in speed- lap times. It took us an hour to Lap the upper 50% of the pack cars.  So if you do the math..  if you could lap the top cars at a hour per lap it take all day..  VS  losing 4 minutes per pit stop over 2 pit stops.

We still are going to keep our take it easy the first day and check the car in the garage. I want to make sure our car makes it 2nd day. but I agree if your driving to win you cant be more than 3 to 5 laps down on the first day.

I guess we wont see you this CMP race.  we have opted for Tx and been accepted. I wanted to try a new track and Tx with the 2.5 mile course with maybe 100 cars will seem like a drive in the country,  vs the 1.2 mile CMP parking lot.

EuroTrash E30 - Lemons South 08 (cooling probs) 24th /CMP  Spring 09 (fuel tank damage) one day on track 69th /Lemons South 09 (Hit by an Escort) 27th
MSR Tx, 10 2oth, no issues other than rain. /CHump Homestead Miami 10- 2nd place.
  • From: Safety Harbor, FL (Tampa)
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
  • Posts: 668

Re: You don't have to be fast to win Lemons... or do you?

BlackSheep1 wrote:

You are absolutely right about us not lacking power (although our turbo 6 did somehow lose in a drag race going down the straights to a NA 4 banger VW.)  We are lacking the speed to be able to beat the top two at CMP.  THAT is what I am trying to figure out.

The answer is simple.

Hole shot.  You didn't have it.

If you've tamed to car such that you can now get on the gas firmly at the apex and get an earlier start on your acceleration, you'll keep up.  I guarantee you that's exactly what the McQueen car was doing.  (in addition to being extremely light and probably having a dose of cheatonium in the engine bay)

Lemons South 2008 - Fail, Lemons South Spring 2009 - Fail, Lemons Detroit(ish) 2008 - Fail, Lemons South Fall 2009 - Fail, Lamest Day 2009 - Fail, Miami 2010 (Chump) - 2nd!, Sebring 2010 (Chump) - Fail, Cuba 2010 - Crew Chief, Roebling 2011 (Chump) - 8th!, Sebring 2011(Chump) - 19th!
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
  • Posts: 287

Re: You don't have to be fast to win Lemons... or do you?

Well I don't see White Lightning or Lightning McQueen registered for Southern Discomfort, that gets you to 2nd place wink

Seriously, run your own race and let the chips fall where they may.  I think you are discounting LUCK a bit too much.

Fall South 09- 23rd place
Southern Discomfort '10 Magnum PU- 5th place
Spring South '10- 1st...... LOSER!
  • Registered: 2009-09-01
  • Posts: 405

Re: You don't have to be fast to win Lemons... or do you?

Let's see you had a fastest lap that was "in the top 5" and you finished 4th, so it sounds like the car is fast enough.  With ANY endurance racing  - whether Lemons or LeMans - there are 2 very crucial items that are required for a win.  It is not just ONE outright fast lap it is consistant laps.  So all the drivers have to have some good abilities, also they have to work traffic well.  ONE fast lap is great for qualifying, but endurance racing takes consistant laps. 

As was already mentioned; pit work.  Just like in NASCAR there is PIT IN and PIT OUT, how long does it take to come off the track drive into the paddock and stop?  Then how fast can you fuel and how fast can the new driver strap in and then how long to drive back out?

At Thunderhill  I was walking by a top 10 team right as they pitted.  The driver jumped out and their "fueling rig" (a 25 gal drum on wheels with a hand pump) was inserted into the tank and they transfered 15 gallons into that car in what seemed like 20 seconds.  The other  driver jumped in the moment the tube was pulled out of the fuel neck and he strapped in pretty darn quick and off they went.  Very well executed.  That's what it takes in the pits to lead the field at the checker. 

The more time you spend ON THE TRACK turing consistant laps and working the traffic well (ie. passing efficiently) will certianly contribute to a strong finish, which you did and good grief man, a 4th is ROCKING.  That is a great finish.  You can have a fast car but if you don't turn consistant laps, have great pit stops, work the traffic AND the yellow flags then you cant be first to the checker.  It is a combination of factors not JUST a fast car.

  • From: Long Beach, CA
  • Registered: 2009-06-14
  • Posts: 294

Re: You don't have to be fast to win Lemons... or do you?

All these answers are right.  Assuming you've built a solid car, you have to run a damn-near perfect race with a whole lot of luck on your side to have a shot at winning one of these.  Besides that, you need to count on no one else getting just a little bit luckier than you.  There are plenty of really good teams out there now with great drivers, solid pit strategies and reliable cars.  Stay competitive, but don't let the focus on winning determine whether you have a good time or not.

Oh, wait.  You drive a Z, don't you?  You'd better get a voodoo witchdoctor on your team or something to have a snowball's chance...

-Kyle
Eyesore Racing
"That's probably wrong, but it's worth a shot."

wrappedinbacon's Website

11 Reply by Judge Phil (edited by MurileeMartin 2009-12-21 11:22 AM)

  • From: Land Of Subarus, Colorado
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
  • Posts: 9,416

Re: You don't have to be fast to win Lemons... or do you?

Adding a super-ringer driver or two to your team helps a lot (assuming you've already got reliability, penalty avoidance, quick pit stops, and luck covered). The addition of Dean Thomas and friends to the V8olvo's driver lineup transformed the car from a solid crypto-contender to a dominating race leader at Thunderhill... and even then the car needed plenty of luck to get by the Krider Integra.

But why this obsession with being the overall winner? Be the Index Of Effluency winner!

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  • From: Tampa, Florida
  • Registered: 2009-05-05
  • Posts: 121

Re: You don't have to be fast to win Lemons... or do you?

MurileeMartin wrote:

Adding a super-ringer driver or two to your team helps a lot...

This is one thing that won't happen.  I love the idea that we are 4 friends that are the only ones that have worked on the car.  We all own it equally and all decisions are made as a team.  One guy couldn't make it to the last race and one of the other guys had his father come in as a replacement.  Another driver has conflicting plans for Southern Discomfort so he will be flying in late and we will have to drive Saturday night to the airport and pick him up.  It is that worth it to keep our team intact.

We are average joes when it comes to racing, our car is a rusty heap 'o parts and most of our replacement parts come from the junk yard.  I was actuallly a little disappointed we got through tech so easily in the fall.  Yet, we were able to keep up with all of the teams (well, all but 3 of them) at CMP that may have more money in their cars and probably have more racing experience that we do.


MurileeMartin wrote:

...But why this obsession with being the overall winner? Be the Index Of Effluency winner!

As you can tell by our present theme, we are not a very creative bunch.  Once we figure out how to win, we will have to turn our attention on being interesting.

13 Reply by BlackSheep1 (edited by BlackSheep1 2009-12-21 12:50 PM)

  • From: Tampa, Florida
  • Registered: 2009-05-05
  • Posts: 121

Re: You don't have to be fast to win Lemons... or do you?

ecugrad wrote:

Well I don't see White Lightning or Lightning McQueen registered for Southern Discomfort, that gets you to 2nd place wink

Seriously, run your own race and let the chips fall where they may.  I think you are discounting LUCK a bit too much.

I saw that too.  Little disappointed.  Would rather win with them there and be the better car than them not show up, though.

I totslly agree with the luck part.  We were lucky to have make as great a showing as 4th.  I'm hoping for a bit more luck now.

ifb_mole wrote:

Let's see you had a fastest lap that was "in the top 5" and you finished 4th, so it sounds like the car is fast enough.  With ANY endurance racing  - whether Lemons or LeMans - there are 2 very crucial items that are required for a win.  It is not just ONE outright fast lap it is consistant laps.  So all the drivers have to have some good abilities, also they have to work traffic well.  ONE fast lap is great for qualifying, but endurance racing takes consistant laps. 

As was already mentioned; pit work.  Just like in NASCAR there is PIT IN and PIT OUT, how long does it take to come off the track drive into the paddock and stop?  Then how fast can you fuel and how fast can the new driver strap in and then how long to drive back out?...The more time you spend ON THE TRACK turing consistant laps and working the traffic well (ie. passing efficiently) will certianly contribute to a strong finish, which you did and good grief man, a 4th is ROCKING.  That is a great finish.  You can have a fast car but if you don't turn consistant laps, have great pit stops, work the traffic AND the yellow flags then you cant be first to the checker.  It is a combination of factors not JUST a fast car.

I think we are both saying the same thing.  Car is plenty fast, we ran a great race, didn't get penalized, no accidents but we still came in only 4th.

We are already safe, consistient, and reliable so now we need to work on being faster.  Not more powerful, faster.

I agree that keeping the car out on the track is the most important thing (IE no accidents, no black flags, no breakdowns) in Lemons.  We get that.  All I'm saying is to get to the next level, going faster is the only way to do it. For us it means better consistient driving, better pits, tweeking the car and hoping our luck doesn't run out.

  • From: Land Of Subarus, Colorado
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
  • Posts: 9,416

Re: You don't have to be fast to win Lemons... or do you?

BlackSheep1 wrote:
MurileeMartin wrote:

Adding a super-ringer driver or two to your team helps a lot...

This is one thing that won't happen.  I love the idea that we are 4 friends (bunch of heartwarming- or, in the case of a Nissan Z team, heart-breaking- stuff about friendship, team spirit, etc.)

Just saying, the ringer-driver-addition route is the easiest path to an overall Lemons win (assuming reliability and luck are already present); your ringer will rack up the medium-fast laps like a penalty-free automaton (using that weird sixth sense for predicting what dumb moves the other drivers might make), then kick it up a few notches when opportunities arise.

Which is why we don't understand why some team stacked with super-wheelmen (e.g., Lightning McQueen, 10 billion E30 teams, etc) doesn't show up in a Lancia Scorpion or Peugeot 604 and run away with the IOE.

Murilee Martin aka Judge Phil on Facebook
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15 Reply by VKZ24 (edited by VKZ24 2009-12-21 02:40 PM)

  • VKZ24
  • VKZ24
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  • From: Wilson, NC
  • Registered: 2009-05-20
  • Posts: 1,840

Re: You don't have to be fast to win Lemons... or do you?

I know this is going to sound crazy, and it goes against everything we racers want, but winning isn't everything.  It may be easier for me to say this since I've been part of a winning team (Dorifto Dogs E30 Spring CMP race) but we actually had more fun the race before and finished 37th or so.  When you are in the car going for the win there is a lot of pressure to make sure all the pits stops are just right.  Also you have to be sure you don't make any mistakes that may cost your team the win.  That is lot of pressure and honestly it wasn't as much fun...for me at least.

This past CMP race we split and formed another team and went just to have fun.  We all had a blast and with one penalty and one lost alternator belt ended up in 24th place.  Believe it or not that was much more fun than when I was in the winners circle.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

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16 Reply by BoB

  • BoB
  • BoB
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  • From: Elmhurst, IL
  • Registered: 2009-05-01
  • Posts: 4,206

Re: You don't have to be fast to win Lemons... or do you?

VKZ24 that is the attitude I would say most teams have but I think we you get those ringers in a team together they only understand winning and don't get the have fun part and the Index is a complete an total foreign concept to them.  They only understand being 1st.

Racing 4 Nickels - 1989 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera
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  • Registered: 2009-09-01
  • Posts: 405

Re: You don't have to be fast to win Lemons... or do you?

BlackSheep wrote:

We are average joes when it comes to racing, our car is a rusty heap 'o parts and most of our replacement parts come from the junk yard.  I was actuallly a little disappointed we got through tech so easily in the fall.  Yet, we were able to keep up with all of the teams (well, all but 3 of them) at CMP that may have more money in their cars and probably have more racing experience that we do.

That pretty well sums it up, sounds like you just may not have the seat time in enough actual races as do the very front  teams.  In amature racing there is a true statement, "there is no subsitution for seat time".  Your team may just need more seat time (actual race experience) to have the confidence to push the car just that wee bit more to finish at the front.  If that is important to you. 

Be damn proud of a 4th place, if you do it too much you're going to get crunched.

  • From: Land Of Subarus, Colorado
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
  • Posts: 9,416

Re: You don't have to be fast to win Lemons... or do you?

VKZ24 wrote:

I know this is going to sound crazy, and it goes against everything we racers want, but winning isn't everything.

Winning the IOE is everything!

Murilee Martin aka Judge Phil on Facebook
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  • From: Angier
  • Registered: 2009-09-19
  • Posts: 705

Re: You don't have to be fast to win Lemons... or do you?

BlackSheep1, you guys are due.  no doubt about it.  but realistically i think you are now in the "seconds count" area.  and never ever discount racing luck.  look at Lightning McQueen's last two races.

in the Fall event they miscaculated fuel mileage by probably one lap and it cost them the win.  in the Spring event they seized a clutch and lost a dozen laps before they got back out and reeled us in as our fuel pump puked.

i hate to bring up NASCRAP, but at least you haven't hit a seagull in the last lap to take you out of contention for the win.  smile

we finished 90th in the Fall. big let-down from the Spring?  not really.  as VK said, we still had a good time in the process.
prepare for the worst, hope for the best.

whatever it was i didn't do it
dorifto dogs E30 - gone but not forgotten

Lee Ho Fook's Racing E36
  • Registered: 2009-10-25
  • Posts: 1,993

Re: You don't have to be fast to win Lemons... or do you?

having "ringer" drivers helps...no doubt about that.....  but the fastest drivers in the world can't drive a broken car....or a car in the penalty box..... 

#1 is a reliable car (50%)
#2 is a well driven, penalty free car (45%)
#3 and this is a DISTANT third....is a "fast" car (5%)

Richard Doty
1984 Porsche 928 "Estate"
Porsche- "there is A substitute" Racing
Dirt Poorsche Racing #2
  • From: Land Of Subarus, Colorado
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
  • Posts: 9,416

Re: You don't have to be fast to win Lemons... or do you?

icemang17 wrote:

having "ringer" drivers helps...no doubt about that.....  but the fastest drivers in the world can't drive a broken car....or a car in the penalty box..... 

#1 is a reliable car (50%)
#2 is a well driven, penalty free car (45%)
#3 and this is a DISTANT third....is a "fast" car (5%)

I would change that to something more like this:

#1 is luck (60%)
#2 is a reliable car (20%)
#3 is a well-driven, penalty-free car (15%)
#4 is a fast car (5%)

Murilee Martin aka Judge Phil on Facebook
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  • From: Tampa, Florida
  • Registered: 2009-05-05
  • Posts: 121

Re: You don't have to be fast to win Lemons... or do you?

BoB wrote:

VKZ24 that is the attitude I would say most teams have but I think we you get those ringers in a team together they only understand winning and don't get the have fun part and the Index is a complete an total foreign concept to them.  They only understand being 1st.

I know your comments weren’t directed at me (we have no ringers) but can't we have fun AND want to win?

As long as each driver has had a chance in the car at every race, we feel like the weekend has been a success.

As I said earlier, I was a little disappointed we got through tech so easily.  We don't have any cheater parts on our car but I wanted the experience of having to sweat it out and humbly beg/plea/bribe our case to the judges.  Seems like we want to have fun.

I also said I was disappointed that the top two teams from CMP Fall '09 may not be at Southern Discomfort.  That, to me, does not sound like someone that just wants to be 1st.  It sounds like someone that likes to compete.

soldmystang wrote:

...realistically i think you are now in the "seconds count" area.  and never ever discount racing luck...

I agree.  The fun part for me now is to try to figure out how get those last few laps better without compromising any luck.

  • Mick25
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  • Registered: 2009-09-20
  • Posts: 346

Re: You don't have to be fast to win Lemons... or do you?

I will have to agree with Loren on one thing.  Lightning McQueen flat out spanked the majority of the cars out on the track from the center of the turn off.  I was ahead, behind and beside of him at some part of the race last fall, and I can honestly say he was getting on the gas WAY faster than we were, no matter what his position on the track was.   
    Take a look at some of the youtube videos, he was not that fast from point A to B in a straight line compared to some of the cars, but when other cars were backing off for the turns, sliding up the track (us), or easing on the throttle after apex, he was simply flat footing it and leaving us in the dust.
     You were very good last fall!  It could have been another story if one car backed off, you had to panic stop, and get tagged by another car not paying attention.  Yes, fast is good, lucky is good, good driving is good.  Put it all together and MAKE SURE YOU HAVE FUN, and you will truly enjoy Lemons.
     Our team is like yours.  Four relatives, raced against each other (and picked at each other) all our lives, and this is how we are going to do it or not at all.  No fun, no race....

#508 Team SOB
FINALLY!!!!!!!!!
  • Registered: 2009-10-25
  • Posts: 1,993

Re: You don't have to be fast to win Lemons... or do you?

MurileeMartin wrote:
icemang17 wrote:

having "ringer" drivers helps...no doubt about that.....  but the fastest drivers in the world can't drive a broken car....or a car in the penalty box..... 

#1 is a reliable car (50%)
#2 is a well driven, penalty free car (45%)
#3 and this is a DISTANT third....is a "fast" car (5%)

I would change that to something more like this:

#1 is luck (60%)
#2 is a reliable car (20%)
#3 is a well-driven, penalty-free car (15%)
#4 is a fast car (5%)

Duh.....I forgot LUCK.....maybe since ours wasn't very good :>)  ....so our killer 74th place finish illustrated perfectly what a car that lasts 75% of the race, 3x penalized...is capable of.....  a slightly better than midpack finish...

Richard Doty
1984 Porsche 928 "Estate"
Porsche- "there is A substitute" Racing
Dirt Poorsche Racing #2
  • From: Angier
  • Registered: 2009-09-19
  • Posts: 705

Re: You don't have to be fast to win Lemons... or do you?

BlackSheep1 wrote:
BoB wrote:

VKZ24 that is the attitude I would say most teams have but I think we you get those ringers in a team together they only understand winning and don't get the have fun part and the Index is a complete an total foreign concept to them.  They only understand being 1st.

I know your comments weren’t directed at me (we have no ringers) but can't we have fun AND want to win?

As long as each driver has had a chance in the car at every race, we feel like the weekend has been a success.

As I said earlier, I was a little disappointed we got through tech so easily.  We don't have any cheater parts on our car but I wanted the experience of having to sweat it out and humbly beg/plea/bribe our case to the judges.  Seems like we want to have fun.

I also said I was disappointed that the top two teams from CMP Fall '09 may not be at Southern Discomfort.  That, to me, does not sound like someone that just wants to be 1st.  It sounds like someone that likes to compete.

soldmystang wrote:

...realistically i think you are now in the "seconds count" area.  and never ever discount racing luck...

I agree.  The fun part for me now is to try to figure out how get those last few laps better without compromising any luck.

yeah, but we are planning on running.  so what are we chopped liver?   smile

no ringers and only one real mechanic still on the team.  we do have one hell of a crew chief however.

everyone "wants" to win.  nothing wrong with that thought.  when it is all you race for, you miss out on the Lemons experience.

it's kinda like losing your virginity Dude; just relax, it will happen sooner or later.

whatever it was i didn't do it
dorifto dogs E30 - gone but not forgotten

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