• From: Hayward, CA
  • Registered: 2010-03-23
  • Posts: 1,762

Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

Sir Thomas Crapper wrote:

The best parts store pads are hit and miss.  You'll waste a lot of time replacing pads and rotors (and possibly calipers) if you get it wrong. 

Don't cheap out on the pads.  a set of XP8 for the front are less than 150.00, and you'll get at least 2 races out of them.  We get over a season out of our RP2 pads.  $200 well spent.

I'd agree.
XP8s on a 1800# Honda lasted for ever, like +4 races. didn't wear out rotors and awesome brakes. BUT BED THEM CORRECTLY.
XP8 on the front of the 2700# Valiant have also lasted like 6 races.

But ~$200-225 per Axle. So $400

So lets do some math. Regular Duralast pads from Autozone are $25 with tax. So that says 8-9 pad sets are equal to one set of XP8s.
the fiat is about the weight of the Honda, so at least 4 races. If you kill 2 sets of cheap pads per race its a draw.

But you said you had some EBC pads. Use those first, see if you get any brake fade, then you can always send the used pads as cores to Mike Jr at Carbotech. (save your old brake pads to send in, its unlikely they will have brake pad cores).

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Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

FPRbuzz wrote:

We did our first race with the same DOT 3 fluid the car came with. Don't do it.


We did exactly the same.  We did no bake work at all since it was a good running and driving car before we got our hands on it.  Our way turned out to be a really bad idea.  We lost 100% of our brakes 3 times in our first race weekend.  Its very scary and not something you really want to be worrying about on race day.  Flush the factory fluid out and use a real race fluid like Motul.

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  • From: Butler, NJ
  • Registered: 2013-09-21
  • Posts: 103

Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

Thank you for the replies!  It seems like most of the comments have been around the brakes - the kit I was looking at is at the below link - scroll down a little until you get to the 124 Big Brake Kit for $500:
http://allisonsautomotive.com/products.html#suspension

One of the reasons I wanted to upgrade was better parts availability.  If I need pads/rotors in an emergency, the new Fiat 500 brakes will probably be available in a local auto parts store compared to the old 124 brake parts.  I bought stock replacement parts for now just to get the car drivable before spending the cash on an upgrade.  From what I've read on the 124 forums, a brake upgrade is highly recommended. 

Braided stainless lines are available there too - I'll upgrade to these before flushing the system with the Motul fluid - also available there. 

The wheels I was looking at are at the above link too, for $450 a set.  I may go with the steel wheels for ~$250 a set (I haven't seen any on my local Craigslist yet, and I've been looking for Fiat wheels for a while) but in case I get all anal about unsprung weight in the future, I may just go with the lighter wheels now. 

Rock Auto shows KYB shocks available for $17 each, Control Arms: http://www.autoricambi.us/product/SU3-4 … -Bushings/ are pretty cheap too - it almost makes it a wash to buy them opposed to new ball joints and bushings in the old arms.   

Tires: Probably the Dunlop Direzza ZII in 205/50-15, but I'll find out what should fit. 
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp … mpare1=yes

I hope those links work. 

Some progress - I built a new ignition switch and pushbutton start from a few industrial switches that were getting thrown away at work (Free for budget purposes?  They're not really high dollar items.  A few dollars at most?  I guess I'll put something reasonable down in the final budget spreadsheet).  The current pushbutton start seems to have a bad contact inside the button - the ratings for the new pushbutton is a good bit higher.

  • From: Gilbertsville, PA
  • Registered: 2009-12-22
  • Posts: 3,251

Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

Starting circuit and ignition have to be safety/ driver comfort, no $ limit.

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Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

Jonathan wrote:

Thank you for the replies!  It seems like most of the comments have been around the brakes - the kit I was looking at is at the below link - scroll down a little until you get to the 124 Big Brake Kit for $500:
http://allisonsautomotive.com/products.html#suspension

One of the reasons I wanted to upgrade was better parts availability.  If I need pads/rotors in an emergency, the new Fiat 500 brakes will probably be available in a local auto parts store compared to the old 124 brake parts.  I bought stock replacement parts for now just to get the car drivable before spending the cash on an upgrade.  From what I've read on the 124 forums, a brake upgrade is highly recommended. 

Braided stainless lines are available there too - I'll upgrade to these before flushing the system with the Motul fluid - also available there. 

The wheels I was looking at are at the above link too, for $450 a set.  I may go with the steel wheels for ~$250 a set (I haven't seen any on my local Craigslist yet, and I've been looking for Fiat wheels for a while) but in case I get all anal about unsprung weight in the future, I may just go with the lighter wheels now. 

Rock Auto shows KYB shocks available for $17 each, Control Arms: http://www.autoricambi.us/product/SU3-4 … -Bushings/ are pretty cheap too - it almost makes it a wash to buy them opposed to new ball joints and bushings in the old arms.   

Tires: Probably the Dunlop Direzza ZII in 205/50-15, but I'll find out what should fit. 
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp … mpare1=yes

I hope those links work. 

Some progress - I built a new ignition switch and pushbutton start from a few industrial switches that were getting thrown away at work (Free for budget purposes?  They're not really high dollar items.  A few dollars at most?  I guess I'll put something reasonable down in the final budget spreadsheet).  The current pushbutton start seems to have a bad contact inside the button - the ratings for the new pushbutton is a good bit higher.


Hey man do a bunch of research on the Direzzas.  I thought i did a bunch and just purchased a set for my ongoing Lemons project and im hoping it wasnt a bad decision.  I dont have a bunch of extra money so making a bad call on $500 is a major bummer.  My reasoning for saying anything is that at the last race I drove in, the team put some on their BMW and they didnt work well for long.  Once they got heated up they got greasy and slippery.  It might be just the terrible set up they have on the bmw or the extreme weight of the car that makes the tire not work.    The reason we bought them is they were the best price in a 200 compound tire.  The car im putting them on is a really light Honda CRX so maybe the tires will work better on a light weight car.  I did speak to other honda teams and none of them liked the Direzzas either.

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  • From: Buxton NC or Truckee CA
  • Registered: 2013-03-25
  • Posts: 836

Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

The RC Spiders swore by Direzzas on their 190 and we've got their backups. They got a full weekend out of them and then we got another weekend and half out of them under a 3500lbs car. Then again, every body's experience and tire preferences seem to differ quite a lot.

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  • Registered: 2009-06-10
  • Posts: 558

Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

Jonathan wrote:

Thank you for the replies!  It seems like most of the comments have been around the brakes...

<snip>

Some progress - I built a new ignition switch and pushbutton start from a few industrial switches that were getting thrown away at work (Free for budget purposes?  They're not really high dollar items.  A few dollars at most?  I guess I'll put something reasonable down in the final budget spreadsheet).  The current pushbutton start seems to have a bad contact inside the button - the ratings for the new pushbutton is a good bit higher.

Trash is true gold in Lemons - if you honestly don't pay for it, and no one gifted it to you, it ain't part of the budget!

I'd agree that the Lemons Hierarchy of Needs has brakes near the top of the list.  Here's what's important in some sort of order:

0.  Safety
1.  Bacon/beer
2.  Theme
3   Oiling
4.  Cooling 
5.  Brakes
6.  Mirrors/lines of sight
7.  Suspension
8.  Tires
9.  Driver comfort
.
.
.
.
.
42 Power

and then once you hit #42, it all starts over!

(BTW, If you have a moment, go find (Dave Coleman's?) writeup of the build of the Eyesore Racing Miata for a great story of trash-into-winnin'-all-the-nickels).

  • Registered: 2011-02-22
  • Posts: 934

Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

We ran the 615, 615K, for years then switched to the ZII the last couple of years. Ours is a fwd 2100# pile.  We prefer the ZII.  They will last 2 races. They haven't gotten greasy when pushed.  Dunlop has 2 versions of the ZII.  We run the discontinued ones just because they are cheaper.

We started Lemons racing on the 615.  Then Falken decided to introduce the K and discounted the remainder of the 615s to $50ea delivered(DTD).  $200 a set...hell, we would slap on 4 fresh ones each day and then drive the piss out of'em.

I would like to add a few words about the importance of race quality brakes.  I'm assuming we're racing for a high finish and not, no offense, IOE.  In Lemons, you can get away with a marginal motor and shitty suspension.  But running out of brakes will end your weekend.  If you think about it, we are applying the brakes several times a minute for hours.    Besides the safety equipment, the brake system is the only thing on a Lemons racer that needs to be race quality.  Most racers carry extra rotors, pads and fluid just in case something goes wrong...it's easy enough.

  • From: Villa Park, IL
  • Registered: 2010-12-12
  • Posts: 1,338

Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

rodknox2 wrote:

I would like to add a few words about the importance of race quality brakes.  I'm assuming we're racing for a high finish and not, no offense, IOE.  In Lemons, you can get away with a marginal motor and shitty suspension.  But running out of brakes will end your weekend.  If you think about it, we are applying the brakes several times a minute for hours.    Besides the safety equipment, the brake system is the only thing on a Lemons racer that needs to be race quality.  Most racers carry extra rotors, pads and fluid just in case something goes wrong...it's easy enough.

The few teams that I know that ran good quality pads from the local parts store always regretted it. They just don't last under the rigors of endurance racing no matter if you're running class A or class C.

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  • From: Butler, NJ
  • Registered: 2013-09-21
  • Posts: 103

Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

Thanks again for the input.  We're more than likely going to go with a race pad, just to be on the safe side.  In case of emergency, we will have the stock stuff on hand if we need it.  I'd say that quality brake parts rank almost up there with Bacon.  Almost. 

Good news is that my classic car insurance policy agreed to insure the car.  That'll save some money compared to what we had planned to spend.  This means the car should be road legal as soon as the Historic plates come back from the DMV through the mail - probably about two weeks. 

Ignition switch / start button:
http://i332.photobucket.com/albums/m343/JonathanJorda/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150226_213131576_zpsgxtxj0pk.jpg

I'm going to mount this on the floor to the right of the driver's seat.  It seems to be usable even with gloves on. 

It seems from the comments that the lighter cars do ok with the ZII tires - we'll probably go with them.  The car is 2200 lbs from the factory, and probably lost about 100 lbs of rust.  By the time we get through adding a cage and possibly a fuel cell (I hope we can stick with the stock tank for budget reasons), we'll probably be back around the 2200 lbs number again.

  • From: Buxton NC or Truckee CA
  • Registered: 2013-03-25
  • Posts: 836

Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

Both of our cars are also on Classic. Luckily they have only seen before pictures.

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  • Registered: 2011-02-22
  • Posts: 934

Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

rule 3G... The control for this switch should be red; the OFF position should be clearly indicated; the switch should be easily accessible from outside the car...

Some folks put the switches on the driver's side down bar.  This meets the 'easily accessible' rule but more importantly (I think) the car can be started standing outside the car.  I can't count the number of times we've had to start the car while working on it but it's probably in the hundreds.  We had the switches located next to the gear shift in our circle track car and it was a pain.

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  • From: Butler, NJ
  • Registered: 2013-09-21
  • Posts: 103

Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

This is just ignition and start - the kill switch will come later.  One of the reasons to mounting it by the driver would be so it doesn't get in the way of an emergency exit of the car.  The car is small enough as it is, and the guys on our team aren't the smallest.  If it turns out better up by the master kill switch, I can move it later on.  I'll also label them once it's installed.

  • From: Shippensburg, PA
  • Registered: 2010-11-18
  • Posts: 1,963

Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

Just a suggestion, from years of having my circle track car wired just as you are intending, put the starter button on the left of the panel.  That way you can push down on the button with your thumb and then throw the switch with your fingers.

Also, wire the starter button so that it can be used with the ignition not turned on.  It has at least two advantages.  First it can be used to bump the engine over if you are trying to find TDC.  Second, you can start to spin the engine over and then turn on the ignition.  It will spin more quickly without the ignition on.  This can really help engines that don't turn over as fast when they are warm/hot.

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  • From: Wilson, NC
  • Registered: 2009-05-20
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Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

Lots of good info has been given already, but I'll add my $0.02 worth. 

Guess what is the number one cause of car failures in Lemons racing?  Besides the fact they start as a POS  that is. 

OVERHEATING!  Make sure above all else (performance-wise) that your engine stays cool.  It doesn't matter if you have the fastest, best-handling car on the track if it overheats, your goose it literally cooked.  If you can budget for a new radiator, do it.  If not, take the old one to a shop and get it professionally flushed and pressure tested.  Also get a REAL water temp gauge.  You can get a SunPro from Advance Auto for $20 and it works just fine.  The factory gauge reacts too slowly and before you know it, the engine is overheated.  Get a warning light in case your drivers are the type who never look at the gauges.  Several of us have pressure switches also (a cheap factory one for low oil pressure works fine) that lets you know you have a leak before the water is gone and the gauge has nothing to read.

Someone commented on keeping it street legal if possible.  I've BTDT, I can tell you it's a huge plus!

Another thing I'd recommend (again I've BTDT) do NOT remove the heater core and defroster setup.   When it rains (and it will!) you will be sooooo glad you did.

Otherwise, carry on and I hope to see you at CMP soon!

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  • Registered: 2011-10-14
  • Posts: 4,167

Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

VKZ24 wrote:

Lots of good info has been given already, but I'll add my $0.02 worth. 

Guess what is the number one cause of car failures in Lemons racing?  Besides the fact they start as a POS  that is.

I beg to differ...I am pretty sure it is wheels falling off and outrunning the car to the sand trap.

  • From: Aumsville, Oregon (Near Salem)
  • Registered: 2010-08-22
  • Posts: 1,913

Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

OnkelUdo wrote:
VKZ24 wrote:

Lots of good info has been given already, but I'll add my $0.02 worth. 

Guess what is the number one cause of car failures in Lemons racing?  Besides the fact they start as a POS  that is.

I beg to differ...I am pretty sure it is wheels falling off and outrunning the car to the sand trap.

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  • From: Butler, NJ
  • Registered: 2013-09-21
  • Posts: 103

Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

Small progress - insurance, title all good, application for historic plates filled out, I just need to get a few pictures this weekend - should be about two weeks and it'll be street legal!  Then for a road test to be sure it won't fall apart above 30 mph.  Then cage, seat, all the small things.

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  • Registered: 2011-06-10
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Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

OnkelUdo wrote:
VKZ24 wrote:

Lots of good info has been given already, but I'll add my $0.02 worth. 

Guess what is the number one cause of car failures in Lemons racing?  Besides the fact they start as a POS  that is.

I beg to differ...I am pretty sure it is wheels falling off and outrunning the car to the sand trap.


LE MOPAR DID NOT(!!!) HAVE A WHEEL FALL OFF AT ROAD AMERICA....
... or summit...

it was still basically attached. and you bastards KNOW it.

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  • From: Land Of Subarus, Colorado
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
  • Posts: 9,416

Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

Actually, I'd say that electrical problems are the #1 reason for car failure in Lemons. Overheating, however, is the #1 reason for race-ending put-it-on-the-trailer car failure in Lemons

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  • From: St Louis
  • Registered: 2011-10-20
  • Posts: 2,611

Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

Judge Phil wrote:

Actually, I'd say that electrical problems are the #1 reason for car failure in Lemons. Overheating, however, is the #1 reason for race-ending put-it-on-the-trailer car failure in Lemons

Electrical issues like the starter motor being smashed by a connecting rod exiting the block?

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  • From: the Hill, PA
  • Registered: 2011-06-10
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Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

We're doing it wrong. Last time, we threw a rod trying to start the car.

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  • Registered: 2011-10-14
  • Posts: 4,167

Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

Brett85p wrote:

Electrical issues like the starter motor being smashed by a connecting rod exiting the block?

Nah, you can push start it without the starter motor.  The connecting rod is slightly harder to fix.  The hole the block, well, depends on if you can wait for the JB weld to dry or not.

  • From: Buxton NC or Truckee CA
  • Registered: 2013-03-25
  • Posts: 836

Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

You can even push start an automatic mercedes... once... at 35mph

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  • From: Hayward, CA
  • Registered: 2010-03-23
  • Posts: 1,762

Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

racinrob wrote:

Also, wire the starter button so that it can be used with the ignition not turned on.

NO!

This is NOT allowed per Rule 3.G.1 (see bold text)

3.G.1 Master Electrical Kill Switch. All cars must have a racing-type master electrical kill switch easily turned both off and on by the belted-in driver. The control for this switch should be red; the OFF position should be clearly indicated; the switch should be easily accessible from outside the car; and the switch should be clearly marked by a three-inch or larger lightning-bolt symbol. All electricity must be interrupted by the kill switch (if you don't do that, the engine may still run off the alternator even after the battery circuit is disconnected). Don't put the switch where it's likely to be hit by another car in traffic or crushed in an accident.

Everything in your car should stop working when the kill switch is OFF (unless its your cell phone or a gopro camera with its own internal battery). The car battery +12V should only be present at the battery +12v terminal and at the input terminal to the kill switch. Wiring the starter to crank an OFF engine is not allowed. This is to 1. make sure the engine stops when the kill switch is turned off, and 2. to make sure there are no live wires in the Car/engine bay when the kill switch is turned off (live wires, like sparking live wires that ignite gas or oil).

Or how about your car crashes, the driver turns off the engine, leaves it in gear, gets out, but steps on/knees the starter switch, which then jams closed. Your car is now running on the starter down the track with no driver.
Nope, not allowed.
RacinRob, you need to re-wire?

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