• Registered: 2011-04-05
  • Posts: 1,353

Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

mackwagon wrote:
racinrob wrote:

Also, wire the starter button so that it can be used with the ignition not turned on.

NO!

This is NOT allowed per Rule 3.G.1 (see bold text)

3.G.1 Master Electrical Kill Switch. All cars must have a racing-type master electrical kill switch easily turned both off and on by the belted-in driver. The control for this switch should be red; the OFF position should be clearly indicated; the switch should be easily accessible from outside the car; and the switch should be clearly marked by a three-inch or larger lightning-bolt symbol. All electricity must be interrupted by the kill switch (if you don't do that, the engine may still run off the alternator even after the battery circuit is disconnected). Don't put the switch where it's likely to be hit by another car in traffic or crushed in an accident.

Everything in your car should stop working when the kill switch is OFF (unless its your cell phone or a gopro camera with its own internal battery). The car battery +12V should only be present at the battery +12v terminal and at the input terminal to the kill switch. Wiring the starter to crank an OFF engine is not allowed. This is to 1. make sure the engine stops when the kill switch is turned off, and 2. to make sure there are no live wires in the Car/engine bay when the kill switch is turned off (live wires, like sparking live wires that ignite gas or oil).

Or how about your car crashes, the driver turns off the engine, leaves it in gear, gets out, but steps on/knees the starter switch, which then jams closed. Your car is now running on the starter down the track with no driver.
Nope, not allowed.
RacinRob, you need to re-wire?

I think what he meant was bypass the stock ignition switch with a new one, that way you can still start the car when the stock wiring harness heats up and craps out. The master kill switch would still kill all power and prevent it from starting.

Fourteen time loser. You'd think I'd know better by now.
  • From: Portlandia
  • Registered: 2014-08-08
  • Posts: 1,035

Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

Judge Phil wrote:

Actually, I'd say that electrical problems are the #1 reason for car failure in Lemons.

Joseph Lucas said something similar.

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53 Reply by EyeMWing (edited by EyeMWing 2015-03-13 12:29 PM)

  • From: Baltimore, MD
  • Registered: 2010-05-20
  • Posts: 1,745

Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

mackwagon wrote:
racinrob wrote:

Also, wire the starter button so that it can be used with the ignition not turned on.

NO!

This is NOT allowed per Rule 3.G.1 (see bold text)

3.G.1 Master Electrical Kill Switch. All cars must have a racing-type master electrical kill switch easily turned both off and on by the belted-in driver. The control for this switch should be red; the OFF position should be clearly indicated; the switch should be easily accessible from outside the car; and the switch should be clearly marked by a three-inch or larger lightning-bolt symbol. All electricity must be interrupted by the kill switch (if you don't do that, the engine may still run off the alternator even after the battery circuit is disconnected). Don't put the switch where it's likely to be hit by another car in traffic or crushed in an accident.

Everything in your car should stop working when the kill switch is OFF (unless its your cell phone or a gopro camera with its own internal battery). The car battery +12V should only be present at the battery +12v terminal and at the input terminal to the kill switch. Wiring the starter to crank an OFF engine is not allowed. This is to 1. make sure the engine stops when the kill switch is turned off, and 2. to make sure there are no live wires in the Car/engine bay when the kill switch is turned off (live wires, like sparking live wires that ignite gas or oil).

Or how about your car crashes, the driver turns off the engine, leaves it in gear, gets out, but steps on/knees the starter switch, which then jams closed. Your car is now running on the starter down the track with no driver.
Nope, not allowed.
RacinRob, you need to re-wire?

The way I read his post, there are 3 controls: Starter, ignition, and kill.

Kill does what it's supposed to do: Kill power to every damned thing.
Starter and ignition are wired completely independently. You can turn on the ignition without engaging the starter, or you can turn on the starter without powering ignition, assuming the kill switch is on.

It's pretty common to just use the kill switch as an ignition switch because the ignition circuit needs to be interrupted anyway (or the kill switch doesn't do its job), it saves the cost and complexity of another switch but you can most certainly have another switch.

Starters can most certainly crank an engine with no ignition power. This is useful and safe. Starters cannot crank an engine with the entire electrical system ostensibly killed.

The kill switch need not be the same thing as the ignition switch. It needs to IMPLY the ignition switch being off, however.


I've driven cars wired both ways. I prefer the 3-switch method, because it cuts down on wear on the big expensive switch (those things don't actually last all that many cycles and when one goes bad it's nasty to diagnose and a pain in the butt to field-replace).

Driver, Pit Monkey, Rod Buster and Engine Fire Starter
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  • From: Buxton NC or Truckee CA
  • Registered: 2013-03-25
  • Posts: 836

Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

He said, Ignition not Kill Switch.

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  • gunn
  • Lemons Staff Stalker
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  • From: SF, CA
  • Registered: 2010-12-18
  • Posts: 1,011

Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

Q: Is that "ignition switch" a momentary switch or a single position dual throw (SPDT) switch?

Is the idea that it replaces the "start" mode on the ignition switch or does it just turn the ignition circuit on/off. On my car,the ignition is on by default if the kill switch is ON but I can change that by moving the position of the factory ignition sliding switch).

On our car, we have a momentary switch wired into the ignition circuit because push to start on a crapcan is just so damn cool. It grounds the factory ignition switch circuit much like what you do when you "hotwire a car" in the movies.

BTW, we also have a switch to manual turn on/off the fuel pump. It's wired in replacement to the inertial switch on the Ford (which flips off if the car turns over or is bumped hard -- the second not being a good thing for a racecar). I mostly leave it on but I can shut it off in case I want to bump the starter without the engine catching.

We also have a manual fan control and a bunch of other on/off switches for driver aids (gauge monitoring system, O2 calibration, radio, and rear display/karaoke). I'm an EE and totally nerded out here.

-g

Myopic Motorsport's #888 Ceci n'est pas une Citron Thunderbird ("This is not a lemon" but a 1995 tbird w/ 93 V8 swap + shopping cart rear wing + engine mounted frito maker)
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  • From: Butler, NJ
  • Registered: 2013-09-21
  • Posts: 103

Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

My plan involved three separate switches (well, probably more later on, but three main ones) for kill (no power to anything) ignition (will only work when the kill switch is on) and start (will only work when kill switch is on but does not need ignition. 

The ignition switch is a maintained two-position switch.  There are two sets of contacts which are normally open, and close when the switch is thrown, but the contacts are available separately so I can use normally open or normally closed contacts.  I'll stick with the normally open (closed when "on") for now.  The pushbutton is momentary (and would light up if the car ran on 24 VAC, but I'll try and find a 12 VDC bulb). 

The idea is the two position switch takes the place of the key (off/ignition on) and the button is the start circuit. 

Other stuff I dug out of the "dumpster" pile at work involve temperature sensors, pressure sensors, building automation controllers and a 900 Mhz Ethernet bridge (range is measured in miles!  I just need to check out the FCC requirements).  I doubt we are going to have it working the first race (no real time to get it done, but if we do find time maybe), but with enough effort we should be able to monitor the engine vitals (coolant and oil temperature, oil pressure, coolant pressure, transmission temperature, brake pressure, etc.) all from the paddock.  That's 2016 plans, at least.

57 Reply by fiasco (edited by fiasco 2015-03-13 07:05 PM)

  • From: Lyndeborough, NH
  • Registered: 2011-05-22
  • Posts: 843

Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

mackwagon wrote:
racinrob wrote:

Also, wire the starter button so that it can be used with the ignition not turned on.

NO!

This is NOT allowed per Rule 3.G.1 (see bold text)
. All electricity must be interrupted by the kill switch

Yes. But ignition isn't equal to starter. You can most assuredly wire the starter so it will crank with the ignition off on a push button with no spark and fuel, but as long as the Kill switch kills EVERYTHING, you're good. Pretty sure this is how our car is wired, but haven't actually tried it. I DID look it over to make sure I was confident the Kill Everything portion was right...

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  • From: Baltimore, MD
  • Registered: 2010-05-20
  • Posts: 1,745

Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

Unrelated to the current discussion, but every time I see the title "My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?" I think "Probably everything". Because that's how it works for veterans.

Driver, Pit Monkey, Rod Buster and Engine Fire Starter
Team FinalGear
  • From: Shippensburg, PA
  • Registered: 2010-11-18
  • Posts: 1,963

Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

mackwagon wrote:
racinrob wrote:

Also, wire the starter button so that it can be used with the ignition not turned on.

NO!

This is NOT allowed per Rule 3.G.1 (see bold text)

3.G.1 Master Electrical Kill Switch. All cars must have a racing-type master electrical kill switch easily turned both off and on by the belted-in driver. The control for this switch should be red; the OFF position should be clearly indicated; the switch should be easily accessible from outside the car; and the switch should be clearly marked by a three-inch or larger lightning-bolt symbol. All electricity must be interrupted by the kill switch (if you don't do that, the engine may still run off the alternator even after the battery circuit is disconnected). Don't put the switch where it's likely to be hit by another car in traffic or crushed in an accident.

Everything in your car should stop working when the kill switch is OFF (unless its your cell phone or a gopro camera with its own internal battery). The car battery +12V should only be present at the battery +12v terminal and at the input terminal to the kill switch. Wiring the starter to crank an OFF engine is not allowed. This is to 1. make sure the engine stops when the kill switch is turned off, and 2. to make sure there are no live wires in the Car/engine bay when the kill switch is turned off (live wires, like sparking live wires that ignite gas or oil).

Or how about your car crashes, the driver turns off the engine, leaves it in gear, gets out, but steps on/knees the starter switch, which then jams closed. Your car is now running on the starter down the track with no driver.
Nope, not allowed.
RacinRob, you need to re-wire?


I understand that rule.

If you looked at the photo the OP posted, it was for an ignition switch and a starter button.  It was not a photo of a master kill switch.  I did not think the OP was going to try to use a 35 watt toggle switch for the master disconnect.

With the OP's reply, I believe he understands how this is to work.

I only said what I did because I have seen many people who use a setup like the photo posted and wire the feed to the starter button from the "out" side of the ignition switch.  Yes, it will work that way, but there are a few advantages to having the jumper run from the "in" terminal.

"She's a brick house" 57th out of 121 and 5th in Class C, There Goes the Neighborhood 2013
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  • gtopat
  • gtopat
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  • From: Langhorne, PA
  • Registered: 2010-06-25
  • Posts: 465

Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

Just stating from experience, when I first wired the T-bird, we had the ability to bump the starter with the everything off. One morning at Monticello, the contacts in the solenoid welded themselves together and the starter stuck on. Turns out this is not terribly uncommon in older Fords. We have since removed that feature.

Interceptor Motorsports
351w Foxy T-Bird - Class B Winner!, 440 Bluesmobile - Judges Choice, Org Choice & IOE!, Camero, Fuego Turbo - Heroic Fix & IOE!
  • From: Croton, NY
  • Registered: 2009-07-14
  • Posts: 160

Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

On getting larger and wider 4x98 wheels-- we went with a couple of sets of 16" steelies from these guys on the 131.  That part of the Fiat experience went great.   

www.diamondracingwheels.com

Weakest point without question other than the stock 86hp of course-- brakes.  Speaking as someone who once spent the better part of a race at NJMP pumping the brake pedal with my left foot 6-8 times crossing start finish in the hopes of having a positive brake pedal before turn 1 (with my right foot still flat on the floor)... no easy out of the box swaps there but the stock Fiat brake stuff is not race friendly.

Scuderia Regurgito  '75 Fiat 131, '93 e36
2010 Stafford: Winner, class ugly  2011 NJMP: Organizer's Choice and violently exploded gearbox
2011 Stafford: Most From the Least, 2012 NJMP: Shockingly issue free, 2012 Loudon: Rod thru block
2012 Hooptiefest: Multiple spun bearings, 2013 Monticello: Head gaskets, 2013 Loudon: More head gaskets, 2013 NJMP, 2013 Hooptiefest, 2014 NJMPx2 and Heroic Fix
  • From: Butler, NJ
  • Registered: 2013-09-21
  • Posts: 103

Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

Plates came in today!  I'm going to do a test drive over the weekend.  I'll post back with a "first drive at speed" evaluation.

  • From: Butler, NJ
  • Registered: 2013-09-21
  • Posts: 103

Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

Well, the first test drive went ok.  The car seems to run and drive just fine at lower speeds (25-30 mph).  I only went about a mile, and didn't have the space to get up above that.  The brake pedal seemed to drop lower and lower with each stop, so either I need to bleed the brakes again, or replace the master cylinder.  I didn't see any fluid on the ground, but by the time I got back outside after getting home it was starting to get dark.  I'll do some more troubleshooting this weekend. 

Also, the current start button went bad.  I had to find a large washer to jump the terminals on the start button in order to get the car to start.  I guess I'll push the new ignition/start button installation a little earlier! 

Hopefully this coming weekend I can take it on a little longer test run!  Maybe get it up to 40-50 mph on the highway to see how those bias-ply tires handle the first real movement since 1986.

  • From: South Jersey
  • Registered: 2013-12-01
  • Posts: 588

Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

Sounds like you already replaced the brakes?  You should work on bleeding and bedding them properly. 

http://www.stoptech.com/technical-suppo … ing-brakes

http://www.stoptech.com/technical-suppo … procedures

Stop Tech has lots of good brake articles.  Hope this helps

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00 Firebird, 02 X-Type, 93 NX2000, 00 Mazda 626 (Sold)
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  • From: Butler, NJ
  • Registered: 2013-09-21
  • Posts: 103

Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

Ok, master cylinder is indeed bad.  It looks like the brake fluid is sneaking out the back and filling the booster instead of going to the calipers.  I've already bought a new one from Rock Auto, so I'm letting the flare fittings soak in PB Blaster or similar for the next week or so before I try to turn anything.

On a good point, Rock Auto Score!  I bought new KYB shocks last night for $17 each, with a $40 mail in rebate if you buy all four.  Comes out to $7 per shock.  I wish daily driver parts were this cheap.

  • Hamsa9
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  • From: Our National Capital
  • Registered: 2012-11-03
  • Posts: 239

Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

Jonathan wrote:

On a good point, Rock Auto Score!  I bought new KYB shocks last night for $17 each, with a $40 mail in rebate if you buy all four.  Comes out to $7 per shock.  I wish daily driver parts were this cheap.

Daily driver parts can be that cheap!  you just need to start daily driving classic 1980s models like the rest of us idiots!

He's a new man now, part of the machine,
His nerves of metal and his blood oil.
The clutch curses, but the gears obey,
His least bidding, and lo, he's away.
  • From: Butler, NJ
  • Registered: 2013-09-21
  • Posts: 103

Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

I've got an '82 Caprice as an ex-daily driver - gas just go too expensive.  The Honda I bought afterwards needed nothing other than fluid changes since I bought it.  Feels weird to not need to replace something broken to get to work the next day.  Same with my '89 Wrangler.  I was replacing stuff all the time when I was daily driving that.

  • Registered: 2014-08-16
  • Posts: 58

Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

Here here! on the 80's classics. We're building our first LeMon - '85 Celica - and have had to buy a few bits and bobs. I've been amazed at how much is available locally for crazy cheap.

Driving like a girl for 33 years.
  • Hamsa9
  • Ripened Lemon
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  • From: Our National Capital
  • Registered: 2012-11-03
  • Posts: 239

Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

Fergus' Fault wrote:

Here here! on the 80's classics. We're building our first LeMon - '85 Celica - and have had to buy a few bits and bobs. I've been amazed at how much is available locally for crazy cheap.

Ahh, the first Lemon starts out cheap... after thrashing an engine or two (especially, custom non-stock engine swaps), the cost goes up.  It will always be a labor of love/insanity.

Truly, I wish you the best on you builds.  (There will be more!)

He's a new man now, part of the machine,
His nerves of metal and his blood oil.
The clutch curses, but the gears obey,
His least bidding, and lo, he's away.
  • From: Butler, NJ
  • Registered: 2013-09-21
  • Posts: 103

Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

I'm sure it won't be the last.  There's a guy up the street from me with a bunch of mid 80's GM stuff in his driveway that has been sitting for about 10-15 years.  His landlord is repaving the driveway this summer, so I'd think he would want to let stuff go in a hurry.  There's two Cavaliers, a S10, and a full size dually pickup - I think it's a short bed.  If the weight is low enough on the dually I'm not sure if that should be tow vehicle or racecar.

  • From: Butler, NJ
  • Registered: 2013-09-21
  • Posts: 103

Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

Yeah, it's been a month.  But the master cylinder is replaced!  A road test followed, and the car did pretty well.  I took it up to 45-50 on a local highway, and there was a little vibration from the bias-ply tires since they're so dry rotted.  I'm going to try to put it up on a lift this week to see what needs to be done underneath - I'm going to budget 10 weeks to finish, but that includes a cage done by someone else.

  • From: Butler, NJ
  • Registered: 2013-09-21
  • Posts: 103

Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

Well, that's the end of this build.  My car started overheating so I pulled over to the side of the road.  A few minutes later another driver managed to find the rear of my car.  Sent me about 70 feet from a dead stop on to someone's lawn.  We'll see what insurance says tomorrow, and if there's enough of a payoff to buy/build something quick for Thompson. 

http://i332.photobucket.com/albums/m343/JonathanJorda/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150701_182020186_zpsns6pbuuf.jpg

My bumper was about even with the telephone pole in the foreground in that picture.

  • From: North Jersey
  • Registered: 2012-10-15
  • Posts: 62

Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

Oh no!  That's terrible!  I was so looking forward to seeing this on the track.

  • Registered: 2015-06-26
  • Posts: 5

Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

Hey Jon,
Tom here.
I'm still floored from your text this afternoon.
Sorry for your loss of what was to be a unique entry in the races.
Hope you have no long term physical effects.
Good luck finding another car to prep.

  • From: Butler, NJ
  • Registered: 2013-09-21
  • Posts: 103

Re: My first Lemons build - What am I screwing up?

Greg, I was looking forward to this getting to the track too!  I'll find something else.  I've already paid up for Thompson.  I need to find something to race! 

Tom, thank you.  I'll find something.  One of the people on the team volunteered their MR2 - if we can cage it in time.