Topic: Negative value?

We have now sold off enough parts off both our Marlin and our engine donor truck that both have negative values (which wasn't hard, since one was free and the other was $100).  I have read conflicting opinions on whether or not negative values are allowed.  I can document the negative values, but I also don't want to cheat or go against the "spirit" of the event.  Can anybody give me a definitive answer on whether or not this is legal or morally questionable?

--Bob

If it ain't broken, fix it 'til it is.

Re: Negative value?

Some would argue that a little "cheating" is the spirit of Lemons...

Sons of STIG
Judge Jonny, "So, what's the next formerly thought to be immune from winning that will steal the nickels?An MR2? A Fierro (ha ha ha)? A Datsun/Nissan Z? A Camaro?"

Re: Negative value?

Well, let's start by looking at the rule in question:

4.1: Total Investment in Vehicle Can Not Exceed $500: Except for items described in Rules 4.2 and 4.3, the total spent to purchase and prepare any car may not exceed $500.

I think the critical language there is in the last phrase: "The total spent to purchase and prepare the car may not exceed $500." So if you got one car for free, any cash produced from parts sold goes into your pocket and can pay for off-budget stuff (tires, brakes, safety gear, hotel, race gas, hauler gas, booze, "working" girls, etc.), but you still can't spend more than $500 to prepare the car for the race.

Same thing for the other car, after the first $100 worth of parts sold. In other words, you don't get to go into the negative: you can only spend $500 to purchase and prep the car for the race (excluding the safety gear yada yada standard disclaimer).

Is that a "definitive" answer? I think that can only come from Nick or Jay, or a mostly-definitive answer from Murilee or Jonny, since they're the judges on this issue most of the time. But that's what I take from that rule language. Good luck.

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.

Re: Negative value?

Jeez - do we really want to go down "donor car" values. 

We can all buy donor cars for $100 and sell >$400 parts off it.  But once we sell $100 worth of stuff - does that mean I can add any/all parts from the car to my race car for free?  How about cars we pick up for $1000?  For $5000?

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: Negative value?

The way I understand it, you can sell parts from your entered crapcan race car to achieve a negative value and put that money back into the car.  (and they are more lenient about this the more effluent the car is)

What you CAN'T do is buy a parts car and sell parts from it for more than you paid for the car.  They don't allow that, because a person could easily just keep buying "parts cars", making profit on the parts, and have an "infinite" budget.

In this particular case, you need to take the price paid for the car and subtract ANYTHING you've sold from the car.  That is your base budget.   Even if it exceeds $500.  (you INVESTED $100 of your money in it, you sold $200, now you have $600 in your budget)

Then you need to assign a value to the engine that is going into the car.  That can be the whole value of the donor car (if it's cheap or free), or a "fair market value" (salvage yard price) if you bought an expensive parts car and are only using the engine.

Judges aren't too keen on "free" parts, so if you go that route, be ready to back it up as best you can.  Again, if it's a truly crappy car, it shouldn't be much of an issue.

Lemons South 2008 - Fail, Lemons South Spring 2009 - Fail, Lemons Detroit(ish) 2008 - Fail, Lemons South Fall 2009 - Fail, Lamest Day 2009 - Fail, Miami 2010 (Chump) - 2nd!, Sebring 2010 (Chump) - Fail, Cuba 2010 - Crew Chief, Roebling 2011 (Chump) - 8th!, Sebring 2011(Chump) - 19th!

Re: Negative value?

I think Loren's got the most important part right -- the more effluent the car, the more lax the enforcement of the rule. If it looks like you're trying to build a fast car, they'll look at it more closely. Note that the perception of the fastness of the car is the important part, not whether, in fact, you actually have a fast car.

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.

Re: Negative value?

Loren wrote:

Judges aren't too keen on "free" parts, so if you go that route, be ready to back it up as best you can.

I can testify to that.  After running the T&T earlier that day, we found our radiator was clogged with Stop-Leak.  Luckily one of our team members had an old car of the same make/model so we brought some of those parts including the radiator as a spare.  We told the judges we got it for free (which was true) but we got dinged with penalty laps for what it was "worth".  Lesson learned...the hard way of course.  IOW, there are no "free" parts.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: Negative value?

This is a touchy and subjective issue due to this rule:

4.7: Scavenger Sales: If you sell pieces off of your car, the money that comes back in can be used to offset the initial purchase price. Just be prepared to convince some exceedingly skeptical judges of the validity of all those transactions.

As Loren has said, you can pretty much buy and profit off of parts cars for an infinite budget.

I have certainly used the Scavenger Sale approach to stay on budget.  In our initial build I started with the 1973 240Z I bought at a Police auction for $200.  I spent a lot of time finding the preferred donor car for the other parts I wanted, an 81-83 280ZX 2+2.  I bought that for $150.  So I initially spent $350.

Then the morphing, scrapping and recongigerating began.   

I was not that efficient about selling parts off either car and made money on the parts car and still have parts from both left over.

I wanted to sell parts off the parts car to cover the cost of putting the motor together since that was the main point of getting the car.  The parts car was easily profitable since I bought it for $150.

That said I, I could have bought a $1000 parts car and sold it down to $0 according to many interpretations.  The thought being a $1000 parts car would have been in better shape than the $150 parts car.  So why should a patient and diligent shopper only be able to recoup $150 when you could go $1000 on a more expensive car?

Likewise, you could buy a $1500 car for Lemons and sell it down to $500 instead of buying whats left of a $200 car and working your way up to $500.

This is a gray area and can be debated either way.  Being from Houston, we can always get into some creative Enron accounting. 

Jonny and Phil or whoever does your BS inspection will make the final call.  If you have $2000 in a Fiat, no one will probably care.  Your $350 Miata/E30 on the other hand may still get penalty laps.

Good luck.

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z

Re: Negative value?

Thanks for all the excellent, if a bit ambiguous, answers.  I never thought of the multiple parts cars route, or the expensive-made-cheap route... it seems to me that these ideas, while highly creative, clearly violate the spirit of the rules (without being expressly forbidden).

Mulry and RobL, I think you guys have the right idea... money to be used for OFF-budget stuff makes the most sense.  Otherwise, we end up with (potentially) tons of "free" parts.

Regarding VKZ24's reply:  Are spare parts included in the $500?  We were thinking of bringing some basic spares (radiator, etc)  but this may not be possible, depending on how tight we get to the $500 limit.  Comments?

--Bob

If it ain't broken, fix it 'til it is.

Re: Negative value?

The $500 budget is for what is on the car as raced.

So spares don't count.

Bringing a race prepped motor as a spare to replace the tired POS is typically looked upon as cheating. 

No matter how you slice it, there are mixed opinions.

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z

11 (edited by Revolutionary Racing 2010-01-05 11:43 AM)

Re: Negative value?

I want to second Troy's last point,

"Jonny and Phil or whoever does your BS inspection will make the final call.  If you have $2000 in a Fiat, no one will probably care.  Your $350 Miata/E30 on the other hand may still get penalty laps."

Perhaps our experience is unusual because we had a relatively new BMW (E36), but the judges did not really even review our information to see that it was sub $500 including sold parts.  They just slapped us with laps.  In observing the BS inspection, it seemed to me that the vast majority of cars are just passed through without a line item review of expenses unless there were obvious cheaty-parts.

If I were building now, I would not focus so much on every last penny.  It is all about appearances.  If you bring a fiat or something like that you could really spend signficantlty more and likely not end up with laps.  For cars like ours, it does not really matter what you spend--you are likely to get laps.  Of course there is a spectrum and a group of cars that are in the middle and the expense accounting might be more relevant.

Troy, or "BMW Troy" as the real Troy says
______
Revolutionary Racing

Re: Negative value?

A Marlin with a set-back 454 isn't going to get the same wave-through that we give Kia Sephias... so get your papers in order!

Re: Negative value?

Jawohl, Kommandant!

If it ain't broken, fix it 'til it is.

Re: Negative value?

Revolutionary Racing wrote:

Perhaps our experience is unusual because we had a relatively new BMW (E36)...

I think you could change "Perhaps" to "Without doubt" and you'd probably have a more accurate statement.

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.

Re: Negative value?

go checkout the Eyesore Pimping build on the Fraken miata they are what Lemons is about thru and thru

Pit Crew Revenge Racing   Rolling chicanelimo,95Lamdspeeder,Gimp Pimp Cadi,300zx Car show kaboom!! 90 Wagovan, mazda v8 Lemons LOGO TATTOO!  Aces 84 Cadi Eldo Briattz I O E WINNER
Class C win with LemonOdy Cannonball Run Whambulance !EX K Captain
Lemons Trophy Truck ShaGuar Baby!

Re: Negative value?

Mulry wrote:
Revolutionary Racing wrote:

Perhaps our experience is unusual because we had a relatively new BMW (E36)...

I think you could change "Perhaps" to "Without doubt" and you'd probably have a more accurate statement.

It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for an E36 to pass unscathed through a Lemons BS Inspection. Bring an E23, however, and we'll (probably) be quite nice.

Re: Negative value?

the newest e36 is a 1999....what year are we in again? lol

Re: Negative value?

I would worry less about the B.S. paper work you are going to show the judges, and worry more about how much booze and porn you can fit in the trunk of your cheater car to bribe Phil and Johnny!

Team E=MCHAMMERD