Topic: Some people will never get "it".

On an Opel forum I make near daily posts of race preparations and follow that up with a race recap. I thought most people knew what this was all about but apparently not.

"Bruce' wrote:

I'm speechless. I didn't realize this whole "Lemons" thing was jalopy racing.

Sorry, I'm way to old to appreciate that stuff.

I replied, showing pics of some outstanding cars and included a note about the racing itself being serious in a non-serious way. (No prestige), and included a link to the Über Gallery where he could see even more wonders. Some do get "it".

"Me' wrote:

"Jalopy racing" way understates what this is.

It's racing because racing is fun, not serious, therefore it must be cheap, because it is just for fun. And since it is for fun, there are no limits on taste, irreverence, or technological development. Our as the director of Sonoma Raceway put it in the driver's meeting, when he applauded us for our creativity, ingenuity, and complete lack of a sense of shame.

Some cars are sincere tributes, for instance, the Parnelli Galaxie (pic), some are funny as heck (pic: Speedcop's camper), Some are pretty disturbing, at first glance (pic: Speedcops's UDC, I just grabbed easy-to-find photos), some are simply fantastic (Studebaker), and naturally there are desecrations (pic: Dave Morrows' Opel GT body panels on a BMW chassis, trying to look like a Banshee).

Other notables - a FWD Toyota grafted onto a RWD Toyota (two engines, 4 driven wheels), an MR2 powered by a 5-cylinder radial airplane engine, a full-sized limo themed as the Titanic and escorted by a Honda tug and a Honda iceberg, a genuine Hudson Hornet powered by a genuine flathead motor, and so much more. So, "jalopy" doesn't even come close to capturing what this is about.

By the way, the racing itself is no joke.

Much more, 10's of thousands of photos, here - 24 Hours of Lemons Über Galleries

And of course, there is the book: K Street Studio - How On Fire Are We?

Some people get it.

poor_GT wrote:

Mike, those are too cool, one could walk around all weekend just taking in the sites & people show. That aspect makes it even more fun for everyone. by far not jalopies, creative engineering more like it

But Bruce is still not buying it.

Bruce wrote:

Do all the clowns have to ride in the circus cars at the same time?

I'm pissed that I spent time reading this entire thread, mentally cheering on someone preparing an OpelGT for serious endurance racing on a shoestring budget, only to find out the whole thing is some kind of sick joke.

Sigh. If he had bought a car I don't think he would have made it to Sunday.

Me wrote:

What's your definition of "serious"?

This is genuine endurance road racing, for people who do not take themselves seriously. "Serious" tends to get booted from these races. In fact I think 10-15 teams were sent home early last Saturday for being overly serious. Dive bombing, door slamming, lots of crap driving = gone. We got quite a good speech on this on Sunday, reminding us that if anyone wanted that kind of racing that every other race series in the world offers that, and that is not what Lemons is about. In Lemons, the working concept is, we take it seriously, without taking ourselves seriously. Penalties are designed to get you back into that spirit. Shame, humiliation, whatever it takes to get people back into the spirit. And there's very little prestige in winning. To remind us of that the cash awards are often paid in nickels and the trophies are made from discarded car parts. Still, both are prized by the racers.

This is real endurance road racing. The quickest cars turn some very good lap times and cars that run the whole race typically cover 600 - 800 miles. We covered over 1,000 miles in one race, and last weekend we were tuning laps as quick as 2:13, which is not bad at all.

Re: Some people will never get "it".

*Like*

Re: Some people will never get "it".

There will always be a "Bruce" out there pining away for the long lost days of SCCA past. Best to not bother too hard trying to convert the SCCAARP crowd.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: Some people will never get "it".

Usually I just say "whatever, faster than you." But I like pushing people's buttons.

Interceptor Motorsports
351w Foxy T-Bird - Class B Winner!, 440 Bluesmobile - Judges Choice, Org Choice & IOE!, Camero, Fuego Turbo - Heroic Fix & IOE!

Re: Some people will never get "it".

- Start Internal Monologue Rant -

So, Bruce isn't in on the real joke.

Bruce, I see you take your own existence and posture too seriously. Have you considered what your life is?

Any life is a sick joke. You die in a manner which you have zero control over. Therefore, you should live life fully and lovingly, caressing every failure and idiot adventure; or you can live life pining for some item or goal you will never attain and avoid said failure. Which did you chose Bruce?

*Sips Whiskey*

You see Bruce, life is a sick, wonderful, horrid, fulfilling, terrifying and joyous joke in which we all have an unknown ending. In which all we have done will fade away in three generations after death. In fact, some clowns will live longer in society than you will.

...damn clowns.

However, my little part in this idiot escapade you refer to as 'a joke' will ensure immortality in the most minute way.

*Grabs a Beer*

But I have guaranteed immortality; the immortality that comes with prideful defiance of reasonable expectations. The prideful defiance against the statement "It can't be done". The immortality that comes with: 'No, I will race this piece of crap and you can to - the only thing stopping you is you!'  I - like an idiot - believe this is the same immortal stupidity that makes NASA think it can land on an asteroid, that makes doctors think they can save mere husks of humans, and allows lawyers to represent the sickest of the sick for the justest of reasons. I'm a hard working idiot.

*Sips Beer*

Bruce, I hope one day you can face oblivion bravely, because life is a sick joke.

A sick joke I fully embrace. You're welcome to join me in this embrace, but it's not for everyone.

- End Internal Monologue Rant -

Captain of Virtuous Authority and Tool Underdevelopment: Escape Velocity Racing
- Ten+ Time Loser
- IOE, Heroic Fix, Class C and Class of 1964
- Heroic Beer Drinker

Re: Some people will never get "it".

CaptainCardigan wrote:

- Start Internal Monologue Rant -

So, Bruce isn't in on the real joke.

Bruce, I see you take your own existence and posture too seriously. Have you considered what your life is?

Any life is a sick joke. You die in a manner which you have zero control over. Therefore, you should live life fully and lovingly, caressing every failure and idiot adventure; or you can live life pining for some item or goal you will never attain and avoid said failure. Which did you chose Bruce?

*Sips Whiskey*

You see Bruce, life is a sick, wonderful, horrid, fulfilling, terrifying and joyous joke in which we all have an unknown ending. In which all we have done will fade away in three generations after death. In fact, some clowns will live longer in society than you will.

...damn clowns.

However, my little part in this idiot escapade you refer to as 'a joke' will ensure immortality in the most minute way.

*Grabs a Beer*

But I have guaranteed immortality; the immortality that comes with prideful defiance of reasonable expectations. The prideful defiance against the statement "It can't be done". The immortality that comes with: 'No, I will race this piece of crap and you can to - the only thing stopping you is you!'  I - like an idiot - believe this is the same immortal stupidity that makes NASA think it can land on an asteroid, that makes doctors think they can save mere husks of humans, and allows lawyers to represent the sickest of the sick for the justest of reasons. I'm a hard working idiot.

*Sips Beer*

Bruce, I hope one day you can face oblivion bravely, because life is a sick joke.

A sick joke I fully embrace. You're welcome to join me in this embrace, but it's not for everyone.

- End Internal Monologue Rant -

Well said!

Tetanus Racing Toxoid!
86 E30  It ain't cheatin' if it's junk!
Work in Progress

Re: Some people will never get "it".

Bruce probably spent way more money on a racecar, to go slower and turn many less laps, because he is serious racing guy,

The Roto-Racer '89 Merkur:  If it ain't rusting, It ain't racing.

'14 Real Hoopties of NJ: Judges Choice

Re: Some people will never get "it".

Bruce wrote:

Do all the clowns have to ride in the circus cars at the same time?

I'm pissed that I spent time reading this entire thread, mentally cheering on someone preparing an OpelGT for serious endurance racing on a shoestring budget, only to find out the whole thing is some kind of sick joke.

I've known bitter, frustrated people like this.  The key word is "known".  I spend as little time as possible with people that cling to unhappiness like a security blanket.

As to whether or not all the clowns have to ride in the circus cars at the same time; we would, but Dave Vodden would get on the PA and start yelling at us about being unsafe.

I've actually been told by a few people that are fans of "real" racing that the 24HoL races are the best events they've ever been to.  I tend to agree, but it's hard to be objective when you're a racer competitor driver clown.

~Van

13X losers (or is 14 now?) refusing to learn from our failures.
Organizer's Choice!  Trophy should have a bottle opener on it.

Re: Some people will never get "it".

The thing that's great about Lemons is that those people, when they do come are one and done.

Let them go race the series for "real racers hmm"

Silent But Deadly Racing-  Ricky Bobby's Laughing Clown Malt Liquor Thunderbird , Datsun 510, 87 Mustang (The Race Team Formerly Known as Prince), 72 Pinto Squire waggy, Parnelli Jones 67 Galaxie, Turbo Coupe Surf wagon.(The Surfin Bird), Squatting Dogs In Tracksuits,  Space Pants!  Roy Fuckin Kent and The tribute to a tribute to a tribute THUNDERBIRD/ SUNDAHBADOH!

Re: Some people will never get "it".

Life is too short to take seriously.

"I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!"
IOE winner in the Super Snipe -- Buttonwillow 2012
IOE winner in Super Snipe v2.0 -- Buttonwillow 2016
"Every Super Snipe in Lemons has won an IOE!"

Re: Some people will never get "it".

To quote Childish Gambino: 

"Don't be mad 'cause I'm doing me better than you doing you."

Peace out.

Tunachuckers: 15 Years of Effluency
'08 - '10: 1966 Volvo 122, "Charlie"
'10 - '18: 1975 Ford LTD Landau --> 2018 - current: Converted into 1950 "Plymford"
'22 - current: 1967 Volvo 122, "Charlie ]["

12

Re: Some people will never get "it".

I've always thought that the racing is serious, its just all the people that aren't.

The work we all put into the cars, is serious, the efforts put forth to push these cars to their limit and keep them on the track is serious.  All the other stuff around the pits and with the other teams well that is better off being fun cause when that becomes serious you normally have problems.

Racing 4 Nickels - 1989 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera
2011 SHOWROOM-SCHLOCK SHOOTOUT  IOE Winner
2012 The Chubba Cheddar Enduro Class C winner
Facebook Page

13 (edited by bronson 2015-03-27 11:15 AM)

Re: Some people will never get "it".

In a way, all of us has a Bruce to face. For some, shyness might be their Bruce. For others, a lack of education might be their Bruce. For us, Bruce is a big, loud man who wants to kill fun. But as sure as my title is paddock rat, the people of the Opel forum can conquer their own personal Bruce, who also happens to be the actual Bruce.

riding the space unicorn

14 (edited by m610 2015-03-27 12:10 PM)

Re: Some people will never get "it".

Don't be too hard on Bruce. He had followed a 100+ post thread and only figured out this was a crapcan series after I posted a link to last week's Über Gallery photos. It probably did come as a shock, so I posted a link to the whole Über Gallery, figuring even more shock might just help him "get" the awe. It didn't, yet. Besides, you can't tell from my photos in the thread that the Tinyvette is roller-painted, and the pretty paint I used for the motor must have convinced him that honor and prestige and excellence and all sorts of self-validation was involved in this. Well, a measure of honor is, but not that other stuff.

I get it that much of motorsports and car culture in general seems to thrive on some kind of unobtanium-based king-of-the-hill best-of-the-best fantasy that makes subscribers to that nonsense think they are winners by association. I also get that there actually is a best-of-the-best aspect to motorsports, but that's no reason to be a prick. You wouldn't believe the sour pusses I've met at car shows, just sitting next to their cars and waiting for a trophy so they can finally go home. Or the disses heard at auto-crosses when I bring the Tinyvette or Alan brings his LeMonesque Manta, "competing in the junker class", and so on. It's as if our very presence invalidates the sacred myth of the ultimate car. I really can see why Jay created Lemons, so we can have fun with cars and racing and not have to deal with this nonsense.

Bruce may come around. I followed up the above conversation with a more lengthy recap that if anyone would read, not realizing what Lemons was, would be convinced this was real, earnest, and demanding racing worthy of whatever respect racing is due. (I copied that post to the team's Facebook page.)

Re: Some people will never get "it".

This is not just in racing.  Once you reach a certain status in life (financial, age, job title, whatever) people will look down on anything that is not "appropriate" for that status.  I swear folks start regressing to high school status-symbol BS later in life.

I have a no- or off-white-color job in a blue color industry.  I see my co-workers of similar stature shocked when I tell them my lowest mileage vehicle is 180K and my newest 1995 MY.  They are shocked that I prefer to do my own mechanic work.  They are shocked that I do all my own remodeling work myself...with skills other than writing checks.  By "shocked", I certainly do not mean impressed...and a few are outright snooty about it.

Now if I had a cool hot-rod or lived in "a nice house" it might be different but int he end, lots of folks do not get it.  And I do not get having coffee tables you are afraid to put your feet on, cars you are afraid to get dog hair in and mortgages that are 4-times your annual salary...and I occasionally get self-righteous about it.

Re: Some people will never get "it".

bronson wrote:

In a way, all of us has a Bruce to face. For some, shyness might be their Bruce. For others, a lack of education might be their Bruce. For us, Bruce is a big, loud man who wants to kill fun. But as sure as my title is paddock rat, the people of the Opel forum can conquer their own personal Bruce, who also happens to be the actual Bruce.

Good one, amigo.

Auto Lemon Union www.facebook.com/autolemonunion     
'11 - Point, Sweat, Skank; '12 - Point, Sweat, Vodden, Freeze, '13 Point (+even), Turrible, Vodden, Freeze, '14 Problem, Point, Turrible, Vodden, Freeze, '15 Point, Lemonites, Freeze.

Re: Some people will never get "it".

Whats sad is some "Bruces" have shown up to our events and treat it as such, making a mess for everyone.  Then they get out there and talk a ton of crap on top of that about being kicked out. 

A couple years ago I walked around the paddock at the New England Grand Prix ALMS race at Lime Rock, wearing a Lemons T-shirt.  The pro drivers were asking me about Lemons as much as I was chatting them up about their "real racing".  The Corvette guys invited me in their garage and let me hold the 24 Hours of LeMans trophy and take a picture with it.  Bill Turner was at NHMS managing a team, Pratt and Miller runs a Team, and Emanuelle Pirro has driven in Lemons.  If these things don't make Lemons legit, I don't know what does. 

But the only clown here is Bruce.

Tom Lomino - Proud to be a 23x Lemons Loser, 3x Class B, and 1x IOE Winner!
Craptain, Team Farfrumwinnin - 1995 Volkswagen Golf #14
Click here to "Like" us on Facebook   Click here for our Youtube Videos
Lifetime Achievement (of hopelessness) Award Winners

Re: Some people will never get "it".

In Lemons, the working concept is, we take it seriously, without taking ourselves seriously.

Well said. It surprises me how hard it is for some people to grasp this concept, and not just in racing. Appearances are everything, I guess.

Re: Some people will never get "it".

OnkelUdo wrote:

This is not just in racing.  Once you reach a certain status in life (financial, age, job title, whatever) people will look down on anything that is not "appropriate" for that status.  I swear folks start regressing to high school status-symbol BS later in life.

I have a no- or off-white-color job in a blue color industry.  I see my co-workers of similar stature shocked when I tell them my lowest mileage vehicle is 180K and my newest 1995 MY.  They are shocked that I prefer to do my own mechanic work.  They are shocked that I do all my own remodeling work myself...with skills other than writing checks.  By "shocked", I certainly do not mean impressed...and a few are outright snooty about it.

Now if I had a cool hot-rod or lived in "a nice house" it might be different but int he end, lots of folks do not get it.  And I do not get having coffee tables you are afraid to put your feet on, cars you are afraid to get dog hair in and mortgages that are 4-times your annual salary...and I occasionally get self-righteous about it.

Well put.  i was driving my $800, 1/4 million mile Mercedes past a subdivision of 1/2 million dollar McMansions on my way home tonight...to our little 150-year-old farmhouse...and wondering just what possesses people to plunge themselves into 30 years of payments on such a monstrosity.  I'm afraid we get a bit self-righteous about it, too, but then, maybe we're an inspiration.  Our neighbor just quit her job selling insurance and volunteered to help my wife on the agricultural side of things this year. 

Eh, screw the philosophizing.  It's Friday night, Cheers everybody!

Tunachuckers: 15 Years of Effluency
'08 - '10: 1966 Volvo 122, "Charlie"
'10 - '18: 1975 Ford LTD Landau --> 2018 - current: Converted into 1950 "Plymford"
'22 - current: 1967 Volvo 122, "Charlie ]["

Re: Some people will never get "it".

RogueLeader wrote:

Emanuelle Pirro has driven in Lemons.

he told me my car was shitty big_smile

dead rabbit society: cultured 'n shit.

Re: Some people will never get "it".

I got "Bruced" by the head of the track day at Summit Point yesterday.

The engine was not running correctly, and I'm not sure it was even up to "Simca speed".  When they told me I was running too slow (which I already knew) he made the comment, "This craptastic car may be craptastic for crapcan racing, but it is way too slow for FATT (Friday at the track)".

It was a good time, all things considering, and they are supposed to be giving me a refund this week, but that one insult just leaves a sour taste in my mouth.  I can't way to get it running right, take it back, and show him what a properly running crapcan can do.

"She's a brick house" 57th out of 121 and 5th in Class C, There Goes the Neighborhood 2013
"PA Posse" 21st out of 96 and 2nd in Class C, Capitol Offense 2013.
"PA Posse" 29th out of 133 and Class C WINNER, Halloween Hooptiefest 2013
"PA Posse" 33rd out of 151 and 2nd in Class C, The Real Hoopties 2013

Re: Some people will never get "it".

Rob- next time you go to FATT, let me know, and I'll bring the Tunachuckers LTD.  They don't know from slow.

Tunachuckers: 15 Years of Effluency
'08 - '10: 1966 Volvo 122, "Charlie"
'10 - '18: 1975 Ford LTD Landau --> 2018 - current: Converted into 1950 "Plymford"
'22 - current: 1967 Volvo 122, "Charlie ]["

23 (edited by Greg S 2015-03-28 08:00 AM)

Re: Some people will never get "it".

I've got some thin skin when it comes to people knocking Lemons. This was a typical exchange for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by XXx View Post
All that work for a Lemons car!!! ... crazy. I can see that concept is going the way of all racing, ie. too serious and those with the most money will win.
xxxx

Ok, I'll bite. My car has raced in 22 separate Lemons races over 7 years. It has raced nearly 15,000 miles on the same motor. My Milano (Angelina to those who know her) managed to be in 1st place in the eastern region in 2012 competing for points against teams fielding 3 or more cars.

It is a pretty quick car and handles pretty well. We race against cars with huge power to weight advantages, some that weigh nearly 400 pounds less than us. Every race and every failure has been used as an opportunity to improve the car. We drive the wheels off the car and she soaks up the abuse. The motor spends most of its time north of 6500 RPM.

Work is not money. Just as money is not work. Angelina is mostly developed by my blood, sweat and tears not $$$$. All the work in the engine bay my team and I did, no one else. The cost is the time I spent doing it. The grafted front end is from a parts car a fellow Alfisti, Brian S. gave to me. Thanks Brian...

Lemons is great fun, but you better bring your A game if you want to run upfront with the A class cars. I am the only guy running an Alfa on the East coast in fields filled with BMW's, and mostly we are kicking their butts.

And at a minimum of $1200 per race in entry fees, plus towing expenses and enough fuel to race the hell out of Angelia for 16 hours a weekend, I don't go to the track to break down in a poorly prepared car and go home. I'm there to have a lot of fun, race hard, and compete.

Greg

And then more.

Originally Posted by xxx View Post
Correct, but your car is not a Lemons car. Maybe I do not understand the Lemons concept

Lemons is not vintage car racing it is one step up from banger racing and intentionally very cheap. My comments where in regards to the fancy and expensive radiator and chassis reinforcements for a Lemons car.
xxxx

Sorry, but you are very, very wrong.

Angelina has been racing in Lemons for 7 years, my car ran the first race ever held in the eastern region.

Lemons A class cars have been within the striking distance of SCCA IT cars for 5 years. We have cage and safety rules more restrictive than vintage racing. I know because I race in vintage with the SVRA.

Lemons cars reward ghetto engineering, clever fabrication and doing things on the cheap. After every race you contact the race organizers and they give you a "current value" of your car. This is less than the $500. If you have suffered damage you can repair it or use the budget to improve the car.

After my cars crash and front end damage should I have walked away from it? The radiator you are questioning is from Summit racing, it cost $173 (#1-25202-X) http://www.summitracing.com/search?S...word=1-25202-X

A current replacement radiator from centerline cost $389 dollars. look it up.

Chassis fabrication? last time I checked steel sheet is about $28 for a 3' x 4' piece.

Banger series? really? Any on track contact ends with both cars black flagged and penalized.

Tony Stewart has run in Lemons, Randy Pobst, An entire GrandAm team (at Nelson Ledges) 2 national championship Autocrosser's, I know of and many many other pro racers.

You got it all wrong. I raced in Lemons before getting my Vintage license and also racing with the SCCA. There is no "cheap racing"; there is only less expensive racing.

Lemons is where I learned to race in traffic, keep my eyes up and plan passes. It is a great series with a lot of terrific drivers and some awful drivers. And its a hell of a lot of fun.

Go to a Lemons race and see for yourself.

So I'll bow out now and let xxxxx take his thread back.

Edit: xxx, just saw the previous post. So take some of the Vitriol out of this response.

Greg

the original writer to his credit, did come around. And a lot of people racing in other sanctioning bodies have been very interested and encouraging. Racing is racing, when the flag drops the bullshit stops, whether it Class A,B, C or soap box derby.

I love racing. In any form. But I have never had so much fun off the track, than in Lemons.

1987 Alfa Milano (Bellissima since 2008), Racing since 2008 Stafford Springs,  2nd overall 2011 NJMP, 4th at NHMS 2011, 2nd at Summit 2011, Into the wall hard at Stafford Springs 2011, 2nd at Monticello 2013, 3rd at NHMS 2013, 2nd at NHMS 2016. 2nd at NJMP 2018

25,000 racing miles in 32 races in 10 years. Yes its the same motor. Tell me again how Alfas suck? Update: Big moneyshift = new motor

Re: Some people will never get "it".

OnkelUdo wrote:

This is not just in racing.  Once you reach a certain status in life (financial, age, job title, whatever) people will look down on anything that is not "appropriate" for that status.  I swear folks start regressing to high school status-symbol BS later in life.

I solved this problem easily enough by being a complete failure. Most people I meet are just relieved and surprised that I don't spend all of my free time Huffing Paint naked in the woods.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: Some people will never get "it".

racinrob wrote:

I got "Bruced" by the head of the track day at Summit Point yesterday.

The engine was not running correctly, and I'm not sure it was even up to "Simca speed".  When they told me I was running too slow (which I already knew) he made the comment, "This craptastic car may be craptastic for crapcan racing, but it is way too slow for FATT (Friday at the track)".

It was a good time, all things considering, and they are supposed to be giving me a refund this week, but that one insult just leaves a sour taste in my mouth.  I can't way to get it running right, take it back, and show him what a properly running crapcan can do.

They're just still Butthurt about us leaving.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport