Re: "Aveo at Buttonwillow catching BMW's? Godda be cheatin' hard core."

Renegade wrote:
racerxr wrote:

With well over 100 cars on the track at any given time and 16+ hours of racing in a weekend, flagging a Lemons race accurately and fairly is impossible.  So, we learned to consider black flags as yet another seemingly random occurrence that you only have marginal control over.  It's been our experience that black flag karma evens out in the long run.  We've been black flagged for contact when another car backfired as it passed my driver mid-turn, and I've watched video from my car and seen my drivers accidentally pass under yellow and not get a flag.

We have a very similar situation as your team.  We have a 2700 lbs 110hp FWD car (300 lbs and 7 hp more than your car)  with stock tank and filler tube.  Our car begins to fuel starve after burning just 7-9 gallons of fuel.  We have one hot-shoe and 3 solid drivers.  The delta in lap times is something like 5-10 seconds.  The difference in session duration before fuel starve is 15 to 30 minutes depending on the track.  I've created a spreadsheet and analyzed a few of our races and it turns out that the extra session time gained by the more conservative drivers usually saves us a fuel stop per day and more than makes up for the lap time delta.  It turns out endurance racing is a resource management game, not a foot race.

Fuel isn't the only thing we can manage with lap times.  Other things like tires, brakes, wheel bearings, and even black flags can be mitigated with a little more conservative driving.  With all the cars on the track, flaggers rarely have a perfect view of on-track incidents.  So it often comes down to perception.  A car that is often passing deep in braking zones or mid-turn is gonna be considered the aggressor by the flaggers and assumed to be involved in anything questionable.  This is were the much higher horsepower class A cars have an advantage dicing through traffic passing less frequently in braking zones or mid-turn.

We do have one difference though.  We have somehow landed in Class A.  I suspect it's the reasonably fresh RockAuto closeout struts I made room in the budget to buy.  At first, I was frustrated because we've never turned enough laps in a weekend to win Class B.  But, I eventually realized it was a good thing for our overall enjoyment and the team performance.  We no longer have any chance to win.  So black flags, earned or not, don't bother me.  Mechanical failures are simply team building exercises.  These things no longer "lose the race" for us.  It's a more laid back weekend and somehow fewer things seem to go wrong.  We still haven't "won" Class B, but we have several top 10 finishes now, that's top 10% of the field here in the gulf coast region.

BTW If you haven't done so already, you should consider getting another set of rear hubs with a fresh set of bearings installed and replace the hubs preemptively Saturday evening.

Nicely written and delivered.  My only hesitation is, much of our fun is based upon the desire to compete and do well.  All of us are either track club members or pros, so lapping in a Chevy Aveo just for the sake of track time, is just not satisfactory.  We have all the track time we want and more!  However, if we actually pilot this POS to a win, now that would be quite a fantastic day!

I really do like how you label a black flag as a "seemingly random occurrence".  Now that just clicks with me, primarily because I have certainly gotten away with more than I have been accused...as I am sure we all have.  Again, thanks for the kind words!

Oh, we still track our standing all weekend, and at the end of the day Sunday we are planning pit stops and driver changes to optimize our finishing place.  Also, notice that I know we have never lapped enough to win class B despite being in class A.  It's still a competition for us and not a open track day.  But, letting go of those "it just cost us the race" thoughts and simply making the best of the cards dealt really turned it around for me.  I'm a much more pleasant person if I have to visit the penalty box now as a driver or car owner :-)

BTW, when I compared our cars and team make up, I didn't claim to have the mad driving skillz you guys have demonstrated.  The gulf coast region doesn't have near the depth of competitive cars as California.

2012 North Dallas Hooptie Judge's Choice Winners
If life gives you Lemons, install racing brakes!
https://www.facebook.com/JoBoRacing

Re: "Aveo at Buttonwillow catching BMW's? Godda be cheatin' hard core."

If you manage an elusive "perfect race" (no black flags, no mechanicals, no unplanned stops, each stint expending all your fuel) a well driven Aveo can definitely win Class B in a Lemons race.

It's a bit stressful chasing the perfect weekend. I'd estimate we've had about five out of twenty-five races that were close to that definition of "perfect." The cool part is, one screw up and the pressure is off. Then you just try to get the fastest lap you can safely drive. You still might climb back into contention. If not, oh well. It was better than working a honey-do list all weekend.

Bert One - 1981 Volvo 262c Bertone | Ernie - 1990 Nissan 240SX

53 (edited by Renegade 2015-09-15 11:13 PM)

Re: "Aveo at Buttonwillow catching BMW's? Godda be cheatin' hard core."

I might start a new thread with footage of the T-Hill race.  It will be something like "Avi$ Aveo - causing contact and four car pile up", or something like that.  Then I will explain it was a case of mistaken identity or whatever.

In the video I was pushing hard to stay in the lead for B class.  Second place was seconds behind and top 5 was on the same lap.  I had a missed 2nd to 3rd gear shift that would not go into gear due to our failing tranny, I had two little mistakes that cost me a few seconds, and then I watched a yellow Miata fly off the track and everyone scatter, while I kept going and took advantage of the gawkers.  The good, the bad, and the ugly on this video.  This is much harder than I usually drive in a Lemon's race...especially in an Aveo.  This is more like the big car stuff.  However, I didn't have contact, I stayed in front of 2nd place and actually increased the gap, and then got a black flag.  It's long, but I didn't edit a thing on purpose so anyone can see there was no contact.  Just watch the digital clock on the dash that is in clear view of the camera.  Listen to the conversation in the penalty box too.  Pretty interesting:

https://youtu.be/zIjvLcst-l0

Go to about 7:15 and I think this is where the corner worker thought I had caused an accident.

Re: "Aveo at Buttonwillow catching BMW's? Godda be cheatin' hard core."

The BF sucks but that is the reality of racing in this series. It's a trade-off that we are all willing to make in the interest of safety in the hobby we all love. My BS BF came when I was in the car and we were P1 starting Sunday morning and a very hard charging (and not even in contention for anything) driver overcooked the inside line behind me and plowed into my door. Result: both of us get BFs and we lose P1 and any shot at the overall.

Oh well.

I am with Jim and agree that the pressure of the perfect race can weigh heavy on a team until a hiccup obviates that approach. An overall would be nice but I have found that, once that inevitable dick stomping event occurs, tension in our paddock eases noticeably and we go from having a whole boat load of fun to a whole shit ton of fun. Which is a lot more. I think.

Head of Estate
/) come monday motorsports /)

Kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight.

Re: "Aveo at Buttonwillow catching BMW's? Godda be cheatin' hard core."

We also lost an overall by 17 seconds after a questionable BF... it's the nature of the beast and we all accept it. We run other series if we feel the need for "serious business" racing, but will always come back to Lemons for the great people and fun atmosphere.

Peter St Pierre             #63 Hong Norrth "C" Supra
     5th Place: 2016 CMP Fall
     6th place: 2015 Autobahn 24 hour
     2nd place: 2014 CMP Fall : 17th place: 2014 CMP Southern Discomfort Spring

Re: "Aveo at Buttonwillow catching BMW's? Godda be cheatin' hard core."

Speaking of BF, the Neon Pope was saddled with to unavoidable BF, one on Saturday and one on Sunday that did cost us the race win in Class B.

First was Saturday morning, going into Turn 3 the car behind us was way too fast, locked up the wheels and tapped us in the rear. BF and we got relegated to 36th in B.
We battled all Saturday to get back in contention and took the lead by the end of day (apparently due to the Avis car getting a BF as well...).

On Sunday, transitioning from the old to the new track, the uphill and then blind left turn, on lap 6 or so, coming over the crest a car had just spun and was facing us in the middle of the track. Contact was made, BF was received, first place in B was lost, again. We fought and fought for the rest of the day to regain the lead.

Without those two BF's we would have had a comfortable lead by a few laps going to the end of the race on Sunday but instead all we had a was a diminishing lead to the Pineapple guys that was completely lost when we went two wheels off with 45 minutes to go in our attempt to stay ahead of the much faster car.

45 minutes...

smile

'96 Dodge Neon, a.k.a. "Neon Pope" - 20 Lemons races - 1 Class B win

Re: "Aveo at Buttonwillow catching BMW's? Godda be cheatin' hard core."

Hey Neon...  We talked about you on the radio chatter in that video link above.  I thought you were a Miata.  Didn't get the "Neon" part of the name for some stupid reason.  And for that matter, I never really looked at the car.  LOL.  You guys are pros!  Great racing with you!!!

Re: "Aveo at Buttonwillow catching BMW's? Godda be cheatin' hard core."

Renegade wrote:

Hey Neon...  We talked about you on the radio chatter in that video link above.  I thought you were a Miata.  Didn't get the "Neon" part of the name for some stupid reason.  And for that matter, I never really looked at the car.  LOL.  You guys are pros!  Great racing with you!!!

LOL, that's funny. It was a great race. You guys are much, much better drivers than us. You are already competing for the win and this was our 13th race in that car.

Hope to see you guys again at Sonoma in December or at Miller in three weeks.

Stop by for a beer.

'96 Dodge Neon, a.k.a. "Neon Pope" - 20 Lemons races - 1 Class B win

Re: "Aveo at Buttonwillow catching BMW's? Godda be cheatin' hard core."

I don't see contact, but I see a pretty good violation of the blend line at 10:44.  It could be that the game of telephone between flagger to tower to penalty box got garbled and it got morphed into contact.  If I recall, you were the first of a decent sized wave of cars that came in about that time, and a long list of car numbers and associated shorthand can get mixed up.

Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

Re: "Aveo at Buttonwillow catching BMW's? Godda be cheatin' hard core."

RichVS wrote:

I don't see contact, but I see a pretty good violation of the blend line at 10:44.  It could be that the game of telephone between flagger to tower to penalty box got garbled and it got morphed into contact.  If I recall, you were the first of a decent sized wave of cars that came in about that time, and a long list of car numbers and associated shorthand can get mixed up.

We were alone in the box Sat late afternoon.  Just us, four pissed off judges, and 5 places.  If you recall the reset at the driver's meeting Saturday morning which made the blend line a bit more like a judgement call, I went up in the tower to watch other drivers do what I did with no consequences.  It made turn 1 almost flat out.

Re: "Aveo at Buttonwillow catching BMW's? Godda be cheatin' hard core."

Pissed? How could I be pissed at someone who claimed to be "surgically perfect"?  That's funny stuff!

I'm just offering up a plausible explanation for what happened with the call.  There's a very good chance that we started harassing the next car about the blend line and he got confused because he had contact.

Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

Re: "Aveo at Buttonwillow catching BMW's? Godda be cheatin' hard core."

RichVS wrote:

Pissed? How could I be pissed at someone who claimed to be "surgically perfect"?  That's funny stuff!

I'm just offering up a plausible explanation for what happened with the call.  There's a very good chance that we started harassing the next car about the blend line and he got confused because he had contact.

Plausible...  OK.  I'm quite sure I was fingered for the yellow Miata that went off at the base of the hill before 5.  Cars scattered, I kept going, and we have a bright red car with a huge AVI$ on the side.

Again, no matter.  We had a blast...and we DNF'ed anyway.  It's Lemon's Racing.  We'll get 'em next time!!!

Re: "Aveo at Buttonwillow catching BMW's? Godda be cheatin' hard core."

Generating a few extra HP at 9:06?

riding the space unicorn

Re: "Aveo at Buttonwillow catching BMW's? Godda be cheatin' hard core."

bronson wrote:

Generating a few extra HP at 9:06?

It's an eternity and more to get up that stinkin' hill.  And if I miss a 2nd to 3rd shift, our wounded tranny says, "no gear for you!"  So I tried to carry stupid fast speed through the corner, then take a nap in 3rd.  Lol.

Re: "Aveo at Buttonwillow catching BMW's? Godda be cheatin' hard core."

Renegade wrote:
bronson wrote:

Generating a few extra HP at 9:06?

It's an eternity and more to get up that stinkin' hill.  And if I miss a 2nd to 3rd shift, our wounded tranny says, "no gear for you!"  So I tried to carry stupid fast speed through the corner, then take a nap in 3rd.  Lol.

I frequently try to make horsepower in the same manner.  It's usually shortly after someone has been kind enough to point me by on the next straight after I have been tailing them for the previous several turns.

2012 North Dallas Hooptie Judge's Choice Winners
If life gives you Lemons, install racing brakes!
https://www.facebook.com/JoBoRacing

Re: "Aveo at Buttonwillow catching BMW's? Godda be cheatin' hard core."

Guess what folks...  The AVI$ Aveo is up for sale.  Yep, time to go play in A class.  So, it's obviously set up, everything works, got something like 4 sets of rims and tires, still has a stock engine with OBD2 working and NO check engine light, has the best cage on the planet, adjustable race seat for different sized drivers, new Crow belts, and and and...  It's a top 5 B class car, and if you add a fuel cell, it's a first place B class car.  Heck, 5 drivers at a grand each, could probably buy this car and go racing.  I will even set up a test at a local track here in Vegas if you don't believe it's all good to go.  No drama...it just works.

Re: "Aveo at Buttonwillow catching BMW's? Godda be cheatin' hard core."

What is your plan of attack for the A machine?

What happened to you guys at Miller? Didn't see you out there on Sunday. Was looking forward to a battle with the infamous aveo, and was hoping to settle the score (BMW driver lol)

Re: "Aveo at Buttonwillow catching BMW's? Godda be cheatin' hard core."

Miller was Driver sickness.  Sucked, but the team wasn't feeling well.

Out A class effort is up in the air for now.  We have two potential ideas.  Not a BMW I'm afraid!  Lol...

Re: "Aveo at Buttonwillow catching BMW's? Godda be cheatin' hard core."

Some funny video of the AVEO and the 911 battling for B class top three at Thunder Hill.  Cold tires first lap flat out, then the heat is on.  Stupid behavior during yellow flags become an issue.  Hella Shitty Racing with their hot-shoe and competent pilot,
Philipp von Weitershausen, does a great job at taking advantage of a few little mistakes I make in traffic in the Avi$ Aveo.  Keep watching in the  camera's rear view mirror and you can see all that is going on quite clearly.  Great fun!!!

https://youtu.be/Y3v8XcudOpU

Aveo is still for sale!  Let's call it $3500 with one completely new set of rubber (tires), a few extra sets of rims and year old used 200 treadwear tires, seat and belts included...essentially it's ready to race.  To give you an idea of costs to run, an "A" arm is $20, bearings are $40, rotors are $20, tires are $85 each, it sips fuel, and it doesn't use oil,.  It has a massive oil cooler, every race it's gets Mobil-1, Hawk Blue's on fronts, best built cage in Lemons, new Hawk belts, adjustable driver's seat, Odyssey battery upgrade, and and and.  If you are interested, call me...Scott...805-857-4001.  Car located in Las Vegas.