Topic: cage adjustamfacation, will it pass tech?

In my first go round, i set the main hoop too far forward, thus limiting how far back the seat can move. Most of the guys on the team are 6' plus, so having your knees jammed up under the dash isn't such a good things.

now the issue:  I cut out the diagonal, harness and cross bar to see where the seat needed to be.  it ends up withe driver helmet behind the main hoop. After some consternation, I was thinking of leaving the original hoop where it is and adding a second back where the drive is.  this will be connected to the first via spreader bars.  Here is a pic of what I am thinking, but with a full hoop, not just a helment hoop..

http://www.nhra.com/2008/images/JDRL/rollcage_300.jpg

otherwise I am pretty much going to have to throw most of the current cage away, as it will all be too short.  So will this pass tech and be safe?

the Syndicate - 30 losses and counting ...
89 VW Jettarosa - #337 (11 motors later) <> 67 Mercedes 200 - #200, winner "most with the least" MSR Feb 11, IOE at MSR June 11 <> 88 Mercedes 560 SEL <> 76 Mercedes SLC - IOE at ECR March 13 <> now pimping performance parts for 1970-1980's Mercedes SEL, SEC, SL, SLC's

Re: cage adjustamfacation, will it pass tech?

I dont see how you would be compromising the strength of the cage by doing that. If anything your adding strength to it as long as your horizontal spreader bars are in line with your upper halo. In picturing your situation it sounds like the original hoop would be an elbow buster. Also what are your plans for the side saftey? the door bars would not be far enough back now. And isn't the original hoop going to be in the way of the seat mounting? I know in both our pinto and E-30 seat room on the side is a premium.

E=MC Hammered
E30, 302I (ME car)
Pintoghini with turbo 2.3L
Old Spice Crown Victoria

Re: cage adjustamfacation, will it pass tech?

I don't see how that could pass tech.  There is a requirement for a diagonal on the main hoop.

Come to think of it, there's also a requirement for rear stays on the main hoop with no bends in them.

Also, there is no roll bar padding.

No way this is gonna fly without some sort of waiver from Jay or Nick.  I wouldn't expect that waivering safety equipment is something they would be too eager to do.

Would it be safe?  Well... there are reasons for the cage requirements.

Lemons South 2008 - Fail, Lemons South Spring 2009 - Fail, Lemons Detroit(ish) 2008 - Fail, Lemons South Fall 2009 - Fail, Lamest Day 2009 - Fail, Miami 2010 (Chump) - 2nd!, Sebring 2010 (Chump) - Fail, Cuba 2010 - Crew Chief, Roebling 2011 (Chump) - 8th!, Sebring 2011(Chump) - 19th!

Re: cage adjustamfacation, will it pass tech?

that is why I want to leave the main hoop, to keep the door bars and hallo intact.  The main hoop is at the  B pillar, this will be about a foot behind at the back door.

how it is:

http://hphotos-snc1.fbcdn.net/hs207.snc1/7419_181410167149_669992149_3822015_8187544_n.jpg

some bad MS paint to confuse things. I would tie in the front to the back hoop with some sort of diagonal.

http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs293.ash1/22080_283190347149_669992149_4543876_5688528_n.jpg

http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs233.snc3/22080_283191612149_669992149_4543884_6399708_n.jpg

the Syndicate - 30 losses and counting ...
89 VW Jettarosa - #337 (11 motors later) <> 67 Mercedes 200 - #200, winner "most with the least" MSR Feb 11, IOE at MSR June 11 <> 88 Mercedes 560 SEL <> 76 Mercedes SLC - IOE at ECR March 13 <> now pimping performance parts for 1970-1980's Mercedes SEL, SEC, SL, SLC's

Re: cage adjustamfacation, will it pass tech?

to continue the crapulance:

http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs213.snc3/22080_283211212149_669992149_4544048_205123_n.jpg

the Syndicate - 30 losses and counting ...
89 VW Jettarosa - #337 (11 motors later) <> 67 Mercedes 200 - #200, winner "most with the least" MSR Feb 11, IOE at MSR June 11 <> 88 Mercedes 560 SEL <> 76 Mercedes SLC - IOE at ECR March 13 <> now pimping performance parts for 1970-1980's Mercedes SEL, SEC, SL, SLC's

Re: cage adjustamfacation, will it pass tech?

The problem, as I see it, is that the hoop over the drivers head no longer has a diagnal on it and will be subject to crushing under a load.  You really run into problems with the "Each major load-bearing member must be formed from its own single, continuous tube. " rule as the halo and door bars are major load bearing members and are no longer continuous to the new main hoop.

This should be an organizers call.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: cage adjustamfacation, will it pass tech?

this almost wants me to break out the paint program and have some FUN!!! 

When in doubt defer to Professional cage builders.....print out a copy of the rules & take them with out to the cage builder.....let them read it and give them the related car info (weight) they need to design a proper cage

Richard Doty
1984 Porsche 928 "Estate"
Porsche- "there is A substitute" Racing
Dirt Poorsche Racing #2

Re: cage adjustamfacation, will it pass tech?

RobL wrote:

The problem, as I see it, is that the hoop over the drivers head no longer has a diagonal on it and will be subject to crushing under a load.

the hoop over the drivers head will be the second one and it will have a diagonal.  I actually plan to put one in both hoops

You really run into problems with the "Each major load-bearing member must be formed from its own single, continuous tube. " rule as the halo and door bars are major load bearing members and are no longer continuous to the new main hoop.

that is not the way I read it, which is why I wan some insight from the organizers.  Per the sticky on cages, they don't want butt welded or spliced together pieces.  each piece has to be a single piece till it terminated at the next tube.  They will still be contiguous, just as they are now, I am not going to cut into them.  The plan is add an addition behind the current cage and tie that in.  All tube will be new and one piece.  It is done if NHRA for top fuel dragsters, so I imagine it is a safe concept.

I am open to ideas, if you can think of solution I all for it.  Just trying to avoid scraping most of the cage if I can avoid it.

the Syndicate - 30 losses and counting ...
89 VW Jettarosa - #337 (11 motors later) <> 67 Mercedes 200 - #200, winner "most with the least" MSR Feb 11, IOE at MSR June 11 <> 88 Mercedes 560 SEL <> 76 Mercedes SLC - IOE at ECR March 13 <> now pimping performance parts for 1970-1980's Mercedes SEL, SEC, SL, SLC's

9 (edited by Evil Genius 2010-01-17 11:28 PM)

Re: cage adjustamfacation, will it pass tech?

I don't like it-    If your drivers need the main hoop that far back, they will be sitting within the first hoop, and if they're that tall, they will be hitting that first hoop with their helmet. 

   If I were inspecting a cage built with your modifications, I'd fail it.   There are too many possible failure points and non braced members. it also contradicts the 'single continuous piece' rule   If the rear hoop is your main hoop then the door bars aren't continuous, same with your halo bar, etc..   You can't say the first hoop is the main hoop for the door bars and ignore it for the diagonal and the rear stays. You've got to choose one.

    As a cage builder, I see it as being easier to move the hoop (rebuild the cage) than to add a second hoop.   

   You can also try a harness bar that has setback so the seat can move rearward farther.  We use a harness bar that is bent at the main hoop and where it attaches to the diagonal..  you can get up to 6" this way and not have to do major surgery to your cage.   In the same process move the diagonal to a more upright angle, moving the upper attachment point two or three inches to the right, giving more room for the drivers.....

Gosh, my business card says 'Tech Tyrant'

Re: cage adjustamfacation, will it pass tech?

Evil Genius has made good suggestions.

Nick made a post some time ago about X rear hoop stays instead of the diagonal. 

So between that and a set back harness bar, you should be able to have a set move back behind the main hoop a bit.

I don't personally see any problems with a pair of main hoops but I am not an expert or tech inspector.  The farther away from the recommendations you are the more likely you are to fail tech.

With Tech typically on Test & Tune Day now, I'd rather be practicing than having long roll cage discussions.  If they don't like it, you gots to fix it before you race.

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z

Re: cage adjustamfacation, will it pass tech?

Evil Genius wrote:

You can also try a harness bar that has setback so the seat can move rearward farther.  We use a harness bar that is bent at the main hoop and where it attaches to the diagonal..  you can get up to 6" this way and not have to do major surgery to your cage.   In the same process move the diagonal to a more upright angle, moving the upper attachment point two or three inches to the right, giving more room for the drivers.....

that was my original though, but this flash of brilliance came to me and I thought I would see if it would work.  As it is now, the seat stopped at the front of the hoop.  I was thinking that if I could get them under the hoop, that would give us the leg room we need.

I was thinking something like this:

green is the diagnal and harness bar, red is the rear down bars, blue is thecross ties for the rear.

http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs213.snc3/22080_284027502149_669992149_4548623_4073920_n.jpg

the Syndicate - 30 losses and counting ...
89 VW Jettarosa - #337 (11 motors later) <> 67 Mercedes 200 - #200, winner "most with the least" MSR Feb 11, IOE at MSR June 11 <> 88 Mercedes 560 SEL <> 76 Mercedes SLC - IOE at ECR March 13 <> now pimping performance parts for 1970-1980's Mercedes SEL, SEC, SL, SLC's

Re: cage adjustamfacation, will it pass tech?

Loren wrote:

Also, there is no roll bar padding.

Actually, there is.  Dragsters (or any car where the driver's helmet is in very close proximity to the cage) use a very thin, very dense type of padding which is of a "one-use" type (once it deforms, it's used up).  Look closely and you'll see it.  That said, I dunno if that qualifies for Lemons rules or not.

--Bob

If it ain't broken, fix it 'til it is.

Re: cage adjustamfacation, will it pass tech?

Jackasic wrote:
Evil Genius wrote:

You can also try a harness bar that has setback so the seat can move rearward farther.  We use a harness bar that is bent at the main hoop and where it attaches to the diagonal..  you can get up to 6" this way and not have to do major surgery to your cage.   In the same process move the diagonal to a more upright angle, moving the upper attachment point two or three inches to the right, giving more room for the drivers.....

that was my original though, but this flash of brilliance came to me and I thought I would see if it would work.  As it is now, the seat stopped at the front of the hoop.  I was thinking that if I could get them under the hoop, that would give us the leg room we need.

I was thinking something like this:

green is the diagnal and harness bar, red is the rear down bars, blue is thecross ties for the rear.

http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs213.snc … 3920_n.jpg

This is probably a better solution than the double-decker main hoop theory, but Evil Genius' original concern that if a driver is tall enough to be restricted by the position of the main hoop, then allowing him to move further back will just put his head underneath/alongside the main hoop. Ideally, the main hoop is behind--but not too FAR behind--the driver's head, providing protection in a rollover but not presenting a "bonking" risk due to insufficient bar-to-helmet clearance.

If you want to play it safe, both in terms of actual safety and the chances of passing tech, you'll need to start over. Otherwise, you're decreasing your odds all around.

Re: cage adjustamfacation, will it pass tech?

What I don't get is if you're fabricating a new main hoop anyway, why leave the original in place?

From a structural standpoint, its probably stronger than a standard cage, but analyzing the failure modes would be difficult.  I wouldn't want a cage member right over my helmet.  Just cut the thing out and redo it.

Dave Heinig - Schumacher Taxi Service
coROLLa - 2 time loser, RWB MR2 - 5 time loser
The Craptation - IOE WINNER! Lemons South Spring 2010
Crown Vic - Please God Don't Ever Make Me Go Through That Again

Re: cage adjustamfacation, will it pass tech?

the problem wasn't so much the height, as it was the seat didn't slide back far enough because of the diagonal.  I am going to try the curved harness bar and see what sort of leg room that gives me (i.e seat slide-backedness).  For the cost of a new cage, the guys and suck it up with a little less leg room, since that is the only real bitch. 

I'll probably end up redoing it all when I try for the uber pimp center seat relocation-o-rama this summer.

the Syndicate - 30 losses and counting ...
89 VW Jettarosa - #337 (11 motors later) <> 67 Mercedes 200 - #200, winner "most with the least" MSR Feb 11, IOE at MSR June 11 <> 88 Mercedes 560 SEL <> 76 Mercedes SLC - IOE at ECR March 13 <> now pimping performance parts for 1970-1980's Mercedes SEL, SEC, SL, SLC's

Re: cage adjustamfacation, will it pass tech?

If you guys are all relatively the same size maybe a kirkley aluminum seat would be best for you. You could gain an extra 4" or so by using an aluminum seat vs using a foam padded one. Just a thought.

E=MC Hammered
E30, 302I (ME car)
Pintoghini with turbo 2.3L
Old Spice Crown Victoria

17 (edited by Jackasic 2010-02-15 07:33 AM)

Re: cage adjustamfacation, will it pass tech?

finally working on it, since the race, is like, saturady or something ....

some new and improved pics, going to bend some tube today for a harness bar.

the before, hendered the leg room:

http://offroadrepublic.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&amp;g2_itemId=583049&amp;g2_serialNumber=2

cut out the bars, where the seat needs to be:

http://offroadrepublic.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&amp;g2_itemId=583052&amp;g2_serialNumber=2

in order to get the seat to sit flush, because I bought the fat boy friendly Corbeau

http://offroadrepublic.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&amp;g2_itemId=583061&amp;g2_serialNumber=2

http://offroadrepublic.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&amp;g2_itemId=583055&amp;g2_serialNumber=2

the Syndicate - 30 losses and counting ...
89 VW Jettarosa - #337 (11 motors later) <> 67 Mercedes 200 - #200, winner "most with the least" MSR Feb 11, IOE at MSR June 11 <> 88 Mercedes 560 SEL <> 76 Mercedes SLC - IOE at ECR March 13 <> now pimping performance parts for 1970-1980's Mercedes SEL, SEC, SL, SLC's

18 (edited by Jackasic 2010-02-15 07:55 AM)

Re: cage adjustamfacation, will it pass tech?

i am pretty much just copying the autopower harness bar set up:

http://www.autopowerindustries.com/Images/lg/DSC_2840.jpg

the Syndicate - 30 losses and counting ...
89 VW Jettarosa - #337 (11 motors later) <> 67 Mercedes 200 - #200, winner "most with the least" MSR Feb 11, IOE at MSR June 11 <> 88 Mercedes 560 SEL <> 76 Mercedes SLC - IOE at ECR March 13 <> now pimping performance parts for 1970-1980's Mercedes SEL, SEC, SL, SLC's

Re: cage adjustamfacation, will it pass tech?

Are those rear kicker bars at 45 degrees?

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