• From: Emeryville CA
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
  • Posts: 572

Re: Accepted front-hoop configurations for roll cages

OverStimulated wrote:
Nick_LeMonsHQ wrote:

Due to confusion over the use of the word "continuous" in describing certain parts of the cage, we've updated the rules to say this:

Each major load-bearing member must be formed from its own single, continuous tube.

Basically, we're trying to avoid welded-together sections in major stress-bearing parts of the cage. ALL of the following designs are legal; welding the bolted sections (where applicable) is highly recommended:

I appreciate the clarification that the pictures provide, and maybe it's just me, but I don't see how the second two meet the description above...  Our cage was made with continuous left and right bars so I'm glad to see that shown however.

I can see where your confusion is coming from--the use of "continuous" tube doesn't fit neatly into all cage designs, but it's the closest we could get. You'll note that all three of the top designs have one-piece uprights on both the front and rear hoops, and that's the main thing we're looking at.

It's hard to write a fit-all rule since cage designs vary so greatly, so it's hard to give a single answer to all of the possible questions. I think a few pix of BAD cages will be helpful here--I don't have many pix of those, but I'll try to start accumulating some. In fact, if your cage failed tech, it would probably be helpful for everyone to see specifically where the tech dudes disapproved.

And, as always, if you want us to "pre-tech" a cage by looking at pix, we're happy to--just email me at npon@driversdoor.com with pix. While we can't guarantee that your cage will pass tech from the pix, we can probably spot potentially major problems.

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Re: Accepted front-hoop configurations for roll cages

RogueLeader wrote:

What we have is exactly whats in the "halo Hoop"photo in Nick's post.  The only other thing our cage has is 2 diagonals this is it:

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e302/tommy861/CAGEnewHC.jpg

Rogue--the purpose of the diagonal bar is to protect the driver's head by supporting the upper hoop--the small diagonals in the lower section of your cage don't do that. So you WILL have to add a diagonal to the rear hoop--you can keep the existing horizontal bar and weld two sections of tube to form a diagonal AS LONG AS the two sections form a continuous line.

Second, we've seen cages similar in design to yours that are sold for some drag racing applications--some of these don't meet our tubing size requirements:

3.1.1: Rollbar Tubing and Padding: Minimum tubing size for cars weighing under 3000 pounds as raced is 1.50" x .120" or 1.75" x .095". Cars weighing over 3000 pounds as raced must use a minimum tubing size of 1.75" x .120".

Yours may or may not be one of those cages, but just wanted to give you the heads up. Measure your cage if you're unsure.

Nick_LemonsHQ's Website

  • From: Merrick, NY
  • Registered: 2009-05-13
  • Posts: 2,155

Re: Accepted front-hoop configurations for roll cages

Nick_LeMonsHQ wrote:
RogueLeader wrote:

What we have is exactly whats in the "halo Hoop"photo in Nick's post.  The only other thing our cage has is 2 diagonals this is it:

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e302/ … EnewHC.jpg

Rogue--the purpose of the diagonal bar is to protect the driver's head by supporting the upper hoop--the small diagonals in the lower section of your cage don't do that. So you WILL have to add a diagonal to the rear hoop--you can keep the existing horizontal bar and weld two sections of tube to form a diagonal AS LONG AS the two sections form a continuous line.

Second, we've seen cages similar in design to yours that are sold for some drag racing applications--some of these don't meet our tubing size requirements:

3.1.1: Rollbar Tubing and Padding: Minimum tubing size for cars weighing under 3000 pounds as raced is 1.50" x .120" or 1.75" x .095". Cars weighing over 3000 pounds as raced must use a minimum tubing size of 1.75" x .120".

Yours may or may not be one of those cages, but just wanted to give you the heads up. Measure your cage if you're unsure.

Ours is a drag cage but is 1.62" x .134" and the car is about 2000 pounds so we should be ok.  I'll just have the builder use the lower diagonal bars to form a continuous diagonal for us instead.  Thanks for your help!

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Re: Accepted front-hoop configurations for roll cages

Anyone need help in the Bay area with door bars and cages call me

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  • From: Columbia, South Cackalacke
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Re: Accepted front-hoop configurations for roll cages

Nick_LeMonsHQ wrote:
RogueLeader wrote:

What we have is exactly whats in the "halo Hoop"photo in Nick's post.  The only other thing our cage has is 2 diagonals this is it:

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e302/tommy861/CAGEnewHC.jpg

Rogue--the purpose of the diagonal bar is to protect the driver's head by supporting the upper hoop--the small diagonals in the lower section of your cage don't do that. So you WILL have to add a diagonal to the rear hoop--you can keep the existing horizontal bar and weld two sections of tube to form a diagonal AS LONG AS the two sections form a continuous line.

Second, we've seen cages similar in design to yours that are sold for some drag racing applications--some of these don't meet our tubing size requirements:

3.1.1: Rollbar Tubing and Padding: Minimum tubing size for cars weighing under 3000 pounds as raced is 1.50" x .120" or 1.75" x .095". Cars weighing over 3000 pounds as raced must use a minimum tubing size of 1.75" x .120".

Yours may or may not be one of those cages, but just wanted to give you the heads up. Measure your cage if you're unsure.

I wanted to point out this is the JEGS cage in the pic. It's generally made from 1.750 x .134 ERW tubing. the two small braces for the main hoop are smaller diameter (1.250 x .134) ERW tubing. When we used one of these kits for our '08 car, we ordered 2 extra sticks of 1.750 x .134 tubing to make the diagonal brace.

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31 Reply by RogueLeader (edited by RogueLeader 2009-06-11 08:37 PM)

  • From: Merrick, NY
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Re: Accepted front-hoop configurations for roll cages

Junkyard Dog wrote:
Nick_LeMonsHQ wrote:
RogueLeader wrote:

What we have is exactly whats in the "halo Hoop"photo in Nick's post.  The only other thing our cage has is 2 diagonals this is it:

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e302/ … EnewHC.jpg

Rogue--the purpose of the diagonal bar is to protect the driver's head by supporting the upper hoop--the small diagonals in the lower section of your cage don't do that. So you WILL have to add a diagonal to the rear hoop--you can keep the existing horizontal bar and weld two sections of tube to form a diagonal AS LONG AS the two sections form a continuous line.

Second, we've seen cages similar in design to yours that are sold for some drag racing applications--some of these don't meet our tubing size requirements:

3.1.1: Rollbar Tubing and Padding: Minimum tubing size for cars weighing under 3000 pounds as raced is 1.50" x .120" or 1.75" x .095". Cars weighing over 3000 pounds as raced must use a minimum tubing size of 1.75" x .120".

Yours may or may not be one of those cages, but just wanted to give you the heads up. Measure your cage if you're unsure.

I wanted to point out this is the JEGS cage in the pic. It's generally made from 1.750 x .134 ERW tubing. the two small braces for the main hoop are smaller diameter (1.250 x .134) ERW tubing. When we used one of these kits for our '08 car, we ordered 2 extra sticks of 1.750 x .134 tubing to make the diagonal brace.

We actually got that cage from S&W Racecars, and I got the pic there as well, not sure if they supply Jegs, but all the tubing that came with it SEEMS to be the same diameter wich is actually 1.62" x .134" .  Either way a diagonal needs to be installed.

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  • From: Toronto, Ontario
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Re: Accepted front-hoop configurations for roll cages

Might as well throw in another angle....maybe a rule for existing cars that replace the second door bar with an external hot rolled channel, maybe  two or three by one, bolted across  the driver's door midpoint and extending fore and aft by at least six inches...I used to run Enduros and this setup is surprisingly effective in resisting hits from stuff as big as B-body Chevys (don't ask me how I know this) by distributing the side impact loads across the whole body..might be better than hacking pro cages with add-on bars....As I recall the rules for side beams, they required carriage bolts (round head out, obviously) and fender washers on the inside, minimum six used....the key would be the hot rolled channel, which is very rigid compared to the cold formed stuff...it's also super cheap and easy to install in the driveway with a good drill.

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33 Reply by Greg S (edited by Greg S 2009-06-18 01:33 PM)

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Re: Accepted front-hoop configurations for roll cages

Ok, so this is the first time I am trying to post an image, so it may not work, but.......
We have an autopower roll bar in our alfa romeo Milano. It hasa single horizontal door bar. We are planning on welding in a two pieces of a diagonal bar, one above and one below. I have not seen this configuration yet.

The image should explain what we would like to do.

What say yee.

http://inlinethumb09.webshots.com/42696/2762471180091484844S425x425Q85.jpg

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Re: Accepted front-hoop configurations for roll cages

FWIW: Our cage design detailed in the linked photo album has been approved by Jay/Nick. DOM tubing, halo style roof hoop, angled upper door bar.

http://picasaweb.google.com/bike.cruise … 6988791042

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Re: Accepted front-hoop configurations for roll cages

Greg S wrote:

Ok, so this is the first time I am trying to post an image, so it may not work, but.......
We have an autopower roll bar in our alfa romeo Milano. It hasa single horizontal door bar. We are planning on welding in a two pieces of a diagonal bar, one above and one below. I have not seen this configuration yet.

The image should explain what we would like to do.

What say yee.

http://inlinethumb09.webshots.com/42696 … 425Q85.jpg

This is exactly the bar set up that Nick personally recommended to add to the Autopower cage in our car based on photos I sent him. So if it's good for us it should probably be good for you, but Nick can say for sure.

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  • From: Emeryville CA
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  • Posts: 572

Re: Accepted front-hoop configurations for roll cages

LTDScott wrote:
Greg S wrote:

Ok, so this is the first time I am trying to post an image, so it may not work, but.......
We have an autopower roll bar in our alfa romeo Milano. It hasa single horizontal door bar. We are planning on welding in a two pieces of a diagonal bar, one above and one below. I have not seen this configuration yet.

The image should explain what we would like to do.

What say yee.

http://inlinethumb09.webshots.com/42696 … 425Q85.jpg

This is exactly the bar set up that Nick personally recommended to add to the Autopower cage in our car based on photos I sent him. So if it's good for us it should probably be good for you, but Nick can say for sure.

Yep, the diagonal is a good way to go, both in terms of added protection and ease of ingress/egress. Just make sure the bars that form the diagonal also form a straight line.

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Re: Accepted front-hoop configurations for roll cages

RogueLeader wrote:
Junkyard Dog wrote:
Nick_LeMonsHQ wrote:

Rogue--the purpose of the diagonal bar is to protect the driver's head by supporting the upper hoop--the small diagonals in the lower section of your cage don't do that. So you WILL have to add a diagonal to the rear hoop--you can keep the existing horizontal bar and weld two sections of tube to form a diagonal AS LONG AS the two sections form a continuous line.

Second, we've seen cages similar in design to yours that are sold for some drag racing applications--some of these don't meet our tubing size requirements:

3.1.1: Rollbar Tubing and Padding: Minimum tubing size for cars weighing under 3000 pounds as raced is 1.50" x .120" or 1.75" x .095". Cars weighing over 3000 pounds as raced must use a minimum tubing size of 1.75" x .120".

Yours may or may not be one of those cages, but just wanted to give you the heads up. Measure your cage if you're unsure.

I wanted to point out this is the JEGS cage in the pic. It's generally made from 1.750 x .134 ERW tubing. the two small braces for the main hoop are smaller diameter (1.250 x .134) ERW tubing. When we used one of these kits for our '08 car, we ordered 2 extra sticks of 1.750 x .134 tubing to make the diagonal brace.

We actually got that cage from S&W Racecars, and I got the pic there as well, not sure if they supply Jegs, but all the tubing that came with it SEEMS to be the same diameter wich is actually 1.62" x .134" .  Either way a diagonal needs to be installed.

I should have clarified: the JEGS roll bar (not cage) kit for our Fox body Thunderbird (R.I.P.) was made of 1.750 tubing. They have a 'cage conversion kit' for the bar kit (must be ordered separately) which includes the halo and front down tubes which is also made of 1.750. The roll bar kit does not include a diagonal but it does include those two dinky side braces, sometimes I scratch my head over NHRA rules.

Here's the part to be aware of: if you order a complete cage kit for the same car it is 1.625. Goofy, huh?

Philosophy of life: old age and treachery will ALWAYS overcome youth, enthusiasm and cash. General smartass know it all beer swilling ne'er do well. Avoid eye contact with this person, best avoided completely. 2008 Animal House Racing CMP 'Most Likely To Leave In An Ambulance' 2009 Blind Rodent Racing CMP 2010 Team Galileo CMP 2011 Roundhouse Kick Racing CMP 2012 Road Kill Grill Racing CMP (x2)
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Re: Accepted front-hoop configurations for roll cages

RogueLeader wrote:
RobL wrote:

As per my reading of the rules, you would need a continuous diagnal.  You could post up pics of what you have and see if you could get Nick to comment.

What we have is exactly whats in the "halo Hoop"photo in Nick's post.  The only other thing our cage has is 2 diagonals this is it:

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e302/ … EnewHC.jpg

I'm confused. Sorry but we have this exact cage. Plan on adding an X for the drivers door if not both. So that is good, right. What I dont get is adding a diagonal on the main hoop. If I do that, can I get rid of those two bars that go from the outer edge of cross bar, to the exhaust tunnel?
What about adding an X to the back braces? Still need a diagonal?

Oh and stupid question. Is this for THIS years event? We are running at this years New England's event.

Would love to see pix of this cage with the diagonals in place

Team Victors of War (those idiots in the wife-beaters and white pants)

39 Reply by RobL (edited by RobL 2009-06-25 08:00 AM)

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Re: Accepted front-hoop configurations for roll cages

WINWAR wrote:
RogueLeader wrote:
RobL wrote:

As per my reading of the rules, you would need a continuous diagnal.  You could post up pics of what you have and see if you could get Nick to comment.

What we have is exactly whats in the "halo Hoop"photo in Nick's post.  The only other thing our cage has is 2 diagonals this is it:

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e302/ … EnewHC.jpg

I'm confused. Sorry but we have this exact cage. Plan on adding an X for the drivers door if not both. So that is good, right. What I dont get is adding a diagonal on the main hoop. If I do that, can I get rid of those two bars that go from the outer edge of cross bar, to the exhaust tunnel?
What about adding an X to the back braces? Still need a diagonal?

Oh and stupid question. Is this for THIS years event? We are running at this years New England's event.

Would love to see pix of this cage with the diagonals in place

Yes, this is for this years event. 

Nick can correct me if I am wrong...  The main hoop needs a diagnal.  Nicks post was specifically about acceptable construction around the top of the a-pillar not about acceptable main hoop construction. 

In other words, you need a continuous diagnal and you can get rid of the two bars that go to the exhaust tunnel.  Even if you add an X to the back stays, you would still need a diagnal.

As for the Pics...  RogueLeaders car (with this cage) is going to end up with me tonight to get it ready for Stafford.  It might be a little late for you but I'll take pictures of that car when it is complete. 

However, if you are looking for pictures of a "halo-hoop" rollcage with a main hoop diagnal - that is what we use in our MR2.

http://schumachertaxiservice.com/mr2web … 0_1288.jpg
http://schumachertaxiservice.com/mr2web … 0_1289.jpg
http://schumachertaxiservice.com/mr2web … 0_1444.jpg

All our build pictures are here:  http://schumachertaxiservice.com/mr2webpics/index.htm

EDIT: I reread Nicks post above and he says that you do not need a continuous diagnal, only two bars in a straight line connecting the top of the hoop to the crossbar and then from the crossbar down to the hoop near the floor.  I will respect Nick's intreptation of the rules (they are his rules) but would point out that in other sactioning bodies (NASA/SCCA) that the diagnal needs to be continuous.  I believe that having the diagnal be continuous is the safer way to go since under a crushing load you are not limited by the weakest weld of 4, only of 2.

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We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
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Re: Accepted front-hoop configurations for roll cages

Thanks RobL, we raced with you at E-town once. Had the white Golf. Anyway, I guess my main question is what to do with those bars that go to the tunnel. I think we will no use them with the diagonal. Cage is going in tonight so hope it all goes smoothly. Glad i read this post first!

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Re: Accepted front-hoop configurations for roll cages

Rob is the man!  Looking forward to the road trip tonight out to you!

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Re: Accepted front-hoop configurations for roll cages

WINWAR wrote:

Thanks RobL, we raced with you at E-town once. Had the white Golf. Anyway, I guess my main question is what to do with those bars that go to the tunnel. I think we will no use them with the diagonal. Cage is going in tonight so hope it all goes smoothly. Glad i read this post first!

I thought I asked you if you were that team before...  We got out of dodge before we even knew you were there. 

You don't need the bars that go to the tunnel if you have the diagnal.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

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Re: Accepted front-hoop configurations for roll cages

Cool. Cage is started and we are leaving those out. Diagonal will take its place.

Yeah, my brother (classic Mini Cooper) and brother in-law were working the last station and keeping track of your times. That little whip of your moves out!

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Re: Accepted front-hoop configurations for roll cages

Snipe656 wrote:

Doesn't that cage also need some sort of change for the double driver side bar?  I only ask because we have that exact same S&W cage for one of our cars but have yet to put it in.  We did order it with the bigger tubing so avoided that mistake at least.

When our cage was finally built, Rob added both the diagonal and the second side bar required by the rules, so yes you will need to make those modifications for the cage to be legal.  And honestly after doing one event, I was very happy to have some extra protection there LOL!

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  • From: Merrick, NY
  • Registered: 2009-05-13
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Re: Accepted front-hoop configurations for roll cages

Snipe656 wrote:
RogueLeader wrote:
Snipe656 wrote:

Doesn't that cage also need some sort of change for the double driver side bar?  I only ask because we have that exact same S&W cage for one of our cars but have yet to put it in.  We did order it with the bigger tubing so avoided that mistake at least.

When our cage was finally built, Rob added both the diagonal and the second side bar required by the rules, so yes you will need to make those modifications for the cage to be legal.  And honestly after doing one event, I was very happy to have some extra protection there LOL!

Do you have a picture of how the side bars ended up being done?

Best one I have

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e302/tommy861/IMG_0697.jpg

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  • From: Merrick, NY
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Re: Accepted front-hoop configurations for roll cages

Snipe656 wrote:
RogueLeader wrote:
Snipe656 wrote:

Do you have a picture of how the side bars ended up being done?

Best one I have

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e302/ … G_0697.jpg

Thanks, I am guessing by that picture that you just had double bars made and did not use the diagonal that came with the kit as it was intended to be used at least?

Yeah when Rob made it he used the bar that came with the kit and some additional stock he had.

One thing to note about the S&W kit and Rob can chime in here since he is the one who built it but he told me, it is very much NOT ready to go and required quite a bit of cutting and stuff to fit properly.  Also he said the tubing was thick and tough, he had a hard time with some of it.  In the end our A-pillar tubes are not as close as a real custom cage would sit, in fact theres a pretty decent gap.  Good for a cheap cage in a Lemons car, but if I were using this for a real race car I was gonna keep it would be pretty shitty.  I think S&W just has basic measurements for every car and ships you the corresponding roll hoop, halo hoop, and A-pillars, and the remaining stock you need to make the rest.  Its no autopower to say the least, but it does the job...

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Re: Accepted front-hoop configurations for roll cages

We got our "kit" from AutoWeld, it is their 10PT cage built for an 88EscortGT, which is the same body as my 89EscortLX.
http://web.inetba.com/autoweld/images/10ptn.jpg

My question is would it be acceptable for the "second door bar" to be added from the center of the kit's door bar at a downward angle toward the rear of the door opening? In red below.
http://www.snipersho.com/pics/Rudyspics/Escort/Lemonscort_the%20beginning/MemorialDay%20CageMatch/10ptn%5b1%5d.jpg

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Re: Accepted front-hoop configurations for roll cages

I think that the answer is "yes, but" or "no, unless", depending on whether you're a glass half-full or half-empty kind of guy. Your drawing is halfway there; if you complete the red line so the door bars form a complete X, then you should be legal.

Yes, this may necessitate a removable steering wheel to facilitate ingress and egress. Removable steering wheel doesn't count against your $500 as its a safety item along the lines of whatever helps you get your ass out of a burning car faster = safety. Cheers.

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

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Re: Accepted front-hoop configurations for roll cages

And don't forget that kit needs a main hoop diagnal.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

RobL's Website

  • RobL
  • RobL
  • Lemons Staff Stalker
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  • From: Philly area
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
  • Posts: 2,721

Re: Accepted front-hoop configurations for roll cages

Just read the previous page...

Yeah, that cage still needed some cutting and notching for the bars to fit right.  I am a little anal about notching bars that are going to be welded.  I ended up taking a doorbar and using that to make the main diagnal.  I then custom bent the door bars for them since straight diagnals would have interfered with thier seat.  The steel that they used was hard to weld, it was thick (and I only have a 110v welder) but also seemed to have a coating on it.   Not oil or grease but something else that I had to take off before I could weld.  I also didn't like the fitment of the front loops.  I tried really hard to get them as close to the a-pillar as I could, but there ended up being a gap.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

RobL's Website