Topic: Fluids and maintenance - adds value?

I need some rule clarification; I apologize if it's been covered before.

Do vital fluids, i.e. engine oil, trans oil, power steering fluid count toward the $500 limit? If so, a complete fluid change with Mobil 1 could eat upwards of 10% or more of the cost cap.

Likewise, do standard low-cost maintenance parts count? Things like air filters (OEM or K&N drop-in), oil filters, spark plugs and wires? Again, just a set of these in non-performance versions can eat up another 10%.

I know, I know, I can get spark plug wires for cheap to free at a junkyard. And I would guess the K&N drop-in would add to the value. I'm just asking. Are these things even checked at tech?

Re: Fluids and maintenance - adds value?

Yes, fluids and tune up items count.

And that's why you don't use Mobil 1 anyways. We use Big Rig oil in our car. It's cheap and can deal with the high heat and stresses.

Yes on filters wires, plugs. It all counts.


I think there is a line in the rules that says something to the effect "If it's not listed here as a safety item, then it counts towards the $500 total" You are listing all those things.

So, Used oil, Original spark plugs or $0.99 specials, stock wires or junkyard replacements, stock air filter or none at all ya pussy, and HELL FUCKIN YES these things are checked at tech!!  WTF do you think they are doing? You pull up with the hottest new K&N fresh Royal Purple fluids and a set of MSD plug wires and you've set a target on your back and landed 100 laps on your total.

Wait.....  No.. None of that stuff counts. Go to NAPA, Get the Good stuff!

Re: Fluids and maintenance - adds value?

I included all my fluids, plugs, etc. in my BS portfolio.  But I also had a budget that allowed that since I sold parts.  I probably wouldn't have listed it if I didnt have the budget. smile  IMO it does and should count towards the $500.

Re: Fluids and maintenance - adds value?

Technically, yes, fluids, filters, spark plugs & wires all count against the cap:

2.1: Vehicle Eligibility: ...Vehicles must be acquired and prepared for a maximum of $500 as described in Section 4.

4.1: Total Investment in Vehicle Can Not Exceed $500: Except for items described in Rules 4.2 and 4.3, the total spent to purchase and prepare any car may not exceed $500

4.2: Safety Equipment DOES NOT Count Toward $500 Total: Safety equipment described in Section 3 DOES NOT count toward the $500 total. "Safety" refers to things that can save the driver--not things that can save the car.

          4.2.1: Beside the items and processes listed in Section 3, the following are considered safety-related and therefore exempt:
                + Wheels, tires, wheel bearings, and brake components
                + Exhaust systems downstream of the header/exhaust manifold (NOTE: Turbos and related components are NOT exempt from the $500 limit. Nice try.)
                + Windshields and wipers. (Stock windshields, true Lexan, or circle-track mesh are acceptable; non-Lexan plastic is not acceptable.)
                + Driver comfort & information (steering wheel, shifter, gauges, pedals, cool suits, vents, heaters, radio)
                + All fuel hoses, fuel fittings, fuel filters, and related mounts
                + All fuel-system components upstream of the fuel pump, including tanks/cells, mounts, fillers, vents, etc. (NOTE: Fuel pumps, carburetors, injection pumps, computers, and individual injectors are NOT exempt from the $500 limit.)

# 4.3: Registration, Insurance, and License DO NOT Count Toward $500 Total: Registration, insurance, or license charges--assuming for some reason you bothered--DO NOT count toward the $500 total

Now, if you were an aggressive, litigious type who likes to provoke outrage and self-inflicted wounds, you could make an argument that the above does not address whether or not "consumables" (like fuel) fall under the $500 limit (they don't). So you could make the argument that your car is so crappy that oil isn't a lubricant but is more like a consumable (this could be true) and thus shouldn't count against the limit.

Practically speaking, nobody cares and you're not going to get dinged for using race oil. Go ahead and spend as much money on the good oil so that we can all enjoy it when your car barfs on the track (just like mine). Load up on expensive go-fast parts like K&N filters and 10mm spark plug wires, but know that pretty parts raise the suspicion of the judges, which makes them start looking for cheaty parts that aren't so obvious.

But remember -- this is an endurance race. Speed hardly matters unless you can go at speed for 14+ hours. Good luck.

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.

Re: Fluids and maintenance - adds value?

One area you should spend the money is radiator hoses.  Old, rotten hoses will likely fail and cause you to overheat.  Spend the $20 and replace them.  Spark plugs, wires, and the air filter are much less important as long as they are somewhat functional.

BRE Datsun (Broke Racing Effluence) formerly Dawn of the Zed Racing
'74 260Z
Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/editpicture.php … 2559430584

Re: Fluids and maintenance - adds value?

Brake hoses, too. And those are free in terms of budget.

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.

Re: Fluids and maintenance - adds value?

Thanks for all the tips, guys. I know I want to change the oil on this heap (just bought the car), but wasn't sure what the deal was. And I definitely need some kind of ignition work if I don't do a motor swap; I guess it's gonna be junkyard wires and El Cheapo spark plugs for me!

Re: Fluids and maintenance - adds value?

WallyMart does sell mobil one in the big jugs for 22 bux

El Capitan de los Bastardos De Lemons
1993 Linco Mark Ate
1957 Renault Dauphine
Driver with LemonSpeed's V6 Mustang

Re: Fluids and maintenance - adds value?

TheHeckler wrote:

WallyMart does sell mobil one in the big jugs for 22 bux

+1 for wallyworld

Rotella, Penzoil plat, mobil 1, castrol syntec, all the good stuff is pretty cheap there. better than hitting O'reilly for 4qts of generic + a crappy fram filter for $30, that's for sure.


My call is just spend the money for some decent fresh stuff. an engine that's going to throw a rod is still going to throw it no matter what you put in the crankcase but having a motor seize cuz you put in 4yr old supertech that looks like tar& absinthe is just a pain on everyone and will cost you seat time while you get it unstuck. If you really wanna do plugs and wires just get something cheap. some decent autolite wires go for $20-30.

Re: Fluids and maintenance - adds value?

+1 for Rotella T-Syn, its an inexpensive synthetic that gets good reviews on the oil dork websites.  It's like $19/gal at Walmart 5w-40 only

Fall South 09- 23rd place
Southern Discomfort '10 Magnum PU- 5th place
Spring South '10- 1st...... LOSER!

Re: Fluids and maintenance - adds value?

Oh, one more question, kind of along the same lines:

When buying parts online, do shipping fees count against the budget?

Same question on sales tax.

Re: Fluids and maintenance - adds value?

pinkshinyalan wrote:

Oh, one more question, kind of along the same lines:

When buying parts online, do shipping fees count against the budget?

Same question on sales tax.

Please shoot video when you explain to Phil and Johny that you bought X for $1 with $500 in shipping. 

Yes, it counts.

Fall South 09- 23rd place
Southern Discomfort '10 Magnum PU- 5th place
Spring South '10- 1st...... LOSER!

Re: Fluids and maintenance - adds value?

pinkshinyalan wrote:

Oh, one more question, kind of along the same lines:

When buying parts online, do shipping fees count against the budget?

Same question on sales tax.

Yes, shipping counts. Gas doesn't count if you drive 500 miles to get it though!

Yes, sales tax counts.


Yes, you really are trying too hard. EVERYTHING COUNTS!!!!

14 (edited by pinkshinyalan 2010-02-10 12:21 PM)

Re: Fluids and maintenance - adds value?

Disney wrote:
pinkshinyalan wrote:

Oh, one more question, kind of along the same lines:

When buying parts online, do shipping fees count against the budget?

Same question on sales tax.

Yes, shipping counts. Gas doesn't count if you drive 500 miles to get it though!

Yes, sales tax counts.


Yes, you really are trying too hard. EVERYTHING COUNTS!!!!

See, that's why the answer wasn't intuitive. Shipping counts, but gas to get it doesn't. That would've been my follow-up. It's easy to see how somebody could try to game the system this way.

Likewise, if I sell a part but have to ship it, I'm sure the shipping cost doesn't count to the price deducted, but it's a logical extension that if I pay shipping, I should be able to deduct it.

See what I mean? It's not all exactly clear. But I suppose I am trying too hard; I'm a bit of a nerd for black-and-white. I'm pretty sure I won't come very close to the value cap, but I don't want to get nickel-and-dimed an extra 10 laps, you know?

15 (edited by Mulry 2010-02-10 01:23 PM)

Re: Fluids and maintenance - adds value?

pinkshinyalan wrote:

See what I mean? It's not all exactly clear. But I suppose I am trying too hard; I'm a bit of a nerd for black-and-white. I'm pretty sure I won't come very close to the value cap, but I don't want to get nickel-and-dimed an extra 10 laps, you know?

Welcome to the crazy crapified conundrum and rolling paradox that is Lemons. The more you become comfortable with the absurd, the more it all makes sense. Enjoy!

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.

16

Re: Fluids and maintenance - adds value?

just consider this your cheating area that you bribe your way out of.  Seriously though, if you want to dump in mobile 1 and claim it isn't mobile 1 do you really think the judges are going to send out a sample of your engine oil to get tested.

Racing 4 Nickels - 1989 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera
2011 SHOWROOM-SCHLOCK SHOOTOUT  IOE Winner
2012 The Chubba Cheddar Enduro Class C winner
Facebook Page

Re: Fluids and maintenance - adds value?

Mulry wrote:
pinkshinyalan wrote:

See what I mean? It's not all exactly clear. But I suppose I am trying too hard; I'm a bit of a nerd for black-and-white. I'm pretty sure I won't come very close to the value cap, but I don't want to get nickel-and-dimed an extra 10 laps, you know?

Welcome to the crazy crapified conundrum and rolling paradox that is Lemons. The more you become comfortable with the absurd, the more it all makes sense. Enjoy!

Ha! Fair enough. I'm gonna roll with it, and I'll see you at the Blago spectacular!

Re: Fluids and maintenance - adds value?

pinkshinyalan wrote:
Disney wrote:
pinkshinyalan wrote:

Oh, one more question, kind of along the same lines:

When buying parts online, do shipping fees count against the budget?

Same question on sales tax.

Yes, shipping counts. Gas doesn't count if you drive 500 miles to get it though!

Yes, sales tax counts.


Yes, you really are trying too hard. EVERYTHING COUNTS!!!!

See, that's why the answer wasn't intuitive. Shipping counts, but gas to get it doesn't. That would've been my follow-up. It's easy to see how somebody could try to game the system this way.

Likewise, if I sell a part but have to ship it, I'm sure the shipping cost doesn't count to the price deducted, but it's a logical extension that if I pay shipping, I should be able to deduct it.

See what I mean? It's not all exactly clear. But I suppose I am trying too hard; I'm a bit of a nerd for black-and-white. I'm pretty sure I won't come very close to the value cap, but I don't want to get nickel-and-dimed an extra 10 laps, you know?

I wouldnt consider myself a cheater, but I will dance the line and bend a few rules. If you cant see it, it doesnt count. Put nine thousand dollar a quart oil in it and dont say a word. You really wanna cheat? Put all that crap on the car after BS inspection. It really doesnt help much in the end.

Team Lost in the Dark
Winner " I got screwed" and "Jay's dream car"
2012 Gulf region champs

Re: Fluids and maintenance - adds value?

I just watched Phil and Johnny interrogate the guys that brought the Z32 to CMP this last weekend.  They had driven to NY to pick up the car.  The cost of gas to get from SC to NY was discussed.  I think they got by without laps only because it was a Z car.

In the end, if you bring a car that seems cheaty you will need to have receipts for EVERYTHING!  If the car seems legit and/or has an interesting theme then your documentation can be pretty lax.

Remember: rules lawyers and whiners are frowned upon.  If you get some laps your best recourse is to smile and say thank you.

Our Lady of Perpetual Downforce
http://www.perpetualdownforce.com/

Re: Fluids and maintenance - adds value?

st_rage wrote:

I think they got by without laps only because it was a Z car.

It also blew up pretty damn quick.

Fall South 09- 23rd place
Southern Discomfort '10 Magnum PU- 5th place
Spring South '10- 1st...... LOSER!

21 (edited by Mulry 2010-02-10 01:40 PM)

Re: Fluids and maintenance - adds value?

ecugrad wrote:
st_rage wrote:

I think they got by without laps only because it was a Z car.

It also blew up pretty damn quick.

Proving that it was a Z car. Perhaps they should have had recursion as their theme?

st_rage wrote:

In the end, if you bring a car that seems cheaty you will need to have receipts for EVERYTHING!

After watching several dozen BS inspections, I'm pretty confident that if you bring a car that seems cheaty to the judges, even receipts for EVERYTHING may not really help you. It may reduce your penalty, but you're probably not getting off scot-free.

If you can cheat on your car, surely you can cheat up some receipts, too. The "I got a smokin' deal" argument has a very, very limited half life.

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.

Re: Fluids and maintenance - adds value?

The deal with the shipping being counted is this...

Say I go to eBay to buy some cheaty coilovers for the eBay price of $0.99 but with $249.99 shipping. SHould I put 99 cents down for cheaty IFB_mole coilovers?

I think gas to go get something shouldn't be included because you went and got it, you paid what the part is worth, not some arbitrary price where the shipping actually payed for it. IF I drive to ifb_mole's Maxima race HQ's to get the coilovers, you bet your ass i'd be paying $249.99 for them, not the $.99 listed as the Buy It Now price.


See? Make sense? Rethinking this whole Lemons thing?

Re: Fluids and maintenance - adds value?

Disney wrote:

The deal with the shipping being counted is this...

Say I go to eBay to buy some cheaty coilovers for the eBay price of $0.99 but with $249.99 shipping. SHould I put 99 cents down for cheaty IFB_mole coilovers?

I think gas to go get something shouldn't be included because you went and got it, you paid what the part is worth, not some arbitrary price where the shipping actually payed for it. IF I drive to ifb_mole's Maxima race HQ's to get the coilovers, you bet your ass i'd be paying $249.99 for them, not the $.99 listed as the Buy It Now price.


See? Make sense? Rethinking this whole Lemons thing?

Yeah, I see what you mean. I had already written off any cheaty eBay special coilovers because for my car, there's nothing of the sort that I'd want over the springs I've got. All I can get for my car is the awful "Bomz" stuff which is a waste of money at any price.

Like I said, I'm not looking to get cheaty good stuff by sweeping ludicrous shipping costs under the rug (yeah, yeah, no one would admit it if they were). But $10 here, $25 there for a handful of legitimately priced parts can add up quickly.

I'm pretty sure my car will be a modest build and probably won't send anybody reaching for the big red marker (or however all that is noted). But thanks for all the tips, everyone. Pretty sure a 4-door Escort isn't going to turn too many heads.

The five-year plan though, that should get interesting!

Re: Fluids and maintenance - adds value?

Yeah, we got a couple parts for free, but still listed them in our costs build up since even though they were legit free, they still have street value. That's why you can't claim you had a Cosworth 16V engine laying around to stuff in your Escort and list it as a freebie. That motor is still worth $2000 no matter how much you paid for it. This logic keep people from claiming stupid cheap prices on their parts that their buddies sell or give them to build a crazy fast race car. Except for them Cheatin ass cops, they get away with it all day!

Re: Fluids and maintenance - adds value?

Disney wrote:

I think gas to go get something shouldn't be included because you went and got it, you paid what the part is worth, not some arbitrary price where the shipping actually payed for it. IF I drive to ifb_mole's Maxima race HQ's to get the coilovers, you bet your ass i'd be paying $249.99 for them, not the $.99 listed as the Buy It Now price.

What if your parts are in Japan?  That's how we got our used LSD.  Should we not have to count the $80 shipping?

Realistically, the judges take everything with a grain of salt.  If your car looks fast they're going to run you through the ringer.  I watched them call the sellers on two occasions to verify pricing on parts.  The judges have got a pretty good idea of what things are worth, and in the end that matters a whole lot more than what you claim to have paid for it.

Our Lady of Perpetual Downforce
http://www.perpetualdownforce.com/