Topic: Ghettocharging advice wanted

Hey all,  been a while since I've been here....

I want to install a low boost turbo setup on my car,  to turn it into a "proper" R5 Turbo. I'm thinking 4 or 5 pounds of boost,  nothing excessive.   Ideally,  I'd like to keep everything stock (ECU, MAF,  injectors etc) but I'm open to advice.

To start with,  I'd like recommendations on which turbo to use,  and whether or not to intercool.

Car is a Renault Le Car with a rear - mounted Nissan VQ30.

And...... GO!

If it ain't broken, fix it 'til it is.

Re: Ghettocharging advice wanted

Turbos, manifolds, plumbing from a 300ZX TT. Or just use the whole motor and have pretty reliable high boost...

OMG Racing '94 Benz S500 #140: https://www.facebook.com/pages/OMG-Raci … 2774944199
Judges Choice and Regional Award winner! Chuckwalla '12, Buttonwillow '13, BFE GP '15, Miller '14 & '15, Sonoma '13,'14,'15. Inde '16,17.Finisher of the inaugural Lemons Rally, in the black Jag.... and IOE in the Super Snipe back in '12...look for the #820 Audi back on a track near you in 2017!!

Re: Ghettocharging advice wanted

Yeah,  thought about that as well,  but with my transverse layout the plumbing would be a bitch.

If it ain't broken, fix it 'til it is.

Re: Ghettocharging advice wanted

Let's work backwards:

VQ30 is a V6, which means you need two small turbos (or one bigger one).

Either way, unless you have mad fab skillz, the turbo you are able to fit is likely going to be dictated by the manifold choice you have available to you. T28-sized is likely what you should be looking at.

Intercooling certainly wouldn't hurt- but again, if you're talking 2 turbos (on a rear engine no less!), plumbing is going to be a nightmare. (You should take a look at the MetSHO and the awesome roof mounted intercooler it has)

4-5 psi of boost might be difficult depending on turbo selection. Most internally gated turbos have a base wastegate spring pressure around 7 psi, so you can't go lower than that.

To keep stock ECU stuff, you're probably best off with an Apexi SAFC (basically a fuel management piggback)

"THE WONDERMENT CONSORTIUM"
Nothing's for certain, it could always go wrong. Come in when it's raining, go on out when it's gone.

5 (edited by Cadillac Bob 2017-06-08 08:04 AM)

Re: Ghettocharging advice wanted

I should have put this in my original post,  sorry:

I want too run a single turbo,  mounted at the end of the tail pipe ( in my car's case,  the overall length of the exhaust system from cylinder head to atmosphere is only about 2 feet,  because rear engine).

I can run any flange because I'll fab my own.

Wastegate spring pressure is not a concern,  I have the skills to change that.

Sorry for the omissions.

If it ain't broken, fix it 'til it is.

Re: Ghettocharging advice wanted

GT30R or GT35R then!

"THE WONDERMENT CONSORTIUM"
Nothing's for certain, it could always go wrong. Come in when it's raining, go on out when it's gone.

Re: Ghettocharging advice wanted

Ok,  thanks.   Where would i look to source one in the junkyard?  I'm new to turbocharging; except for big diesels,  most of my forced induction experience is Roots-style blowers.

If it ain't broken, fix it 'til it is.

Re: Ghettocharging advice wanted

derekste wrote:

GT30R or GT35R then!

This was said in jest. Those are big HP turbos for small engines.

Your best bet (IMHO) is going to be a Low Pressure Turbo (LPT) from a Volvo V70 MY 2000-2003
These run on 2.4L 5-Cyl engines.
The problem you're facing with low boost on a 3.0L engine is most turbos
are sized for smaller displacement engines.
Ex.:
1.3-1.6L - Small
1.8-2.0L - Medium
2.2-2.6L - Large

VQ30 TT = 2X - Small Turbo
B5244T  = 1X - Lrg. LPT

You're going to have A LOT of exhaust flow, so too small of a single turbo and you'll over boost.
The Volvo LPT is small-ish, but designed to work on a 2.4L engine. Those engines boost about 8 PSI.
You'll probably need to enlarge the wastegate port a bit to keep from spiking your boost.

One thing that just popped into my head, run a single VQ30 TT turbo off of one bank of the exhaust.
Presumably, that would halve your boost pressure.

You will probably want to run a boost referenced fuel pressure regulator

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9 (edited by Cadillac Bob 2017-06-08 10:30 AM)

Re: Ghettocharging advice wanted

DelinquentRacer wrote:

The problem you're facing with low boost on a 3.0L engine is most turbos
are sized for smaller displacement engines.
Ex.:
1.3-1.6L - Small
1.8-2.0L - Medium
2.2-2.6L - Large


Yes,  this is exactly the problem.  Who can second the Volvo turbo recommendation?  As I said,  I'm a N00B regarding turbos.

If it ain't broken, fix it 'til it is.

Re: Ghettocharging advice wanted

Cadillac Bob wrote:

Hey all,  been a while since I've been here....

I want to install a low boost turbo setup on my car,  to turn it into a "proper" R5 Turbo. I'm thinking 4 or 5 pounds of boost,  nothing excessive.   Ideally,  I'd like to keep everything stock (ECU, MAF,  injectors etc) but I'm open to advice.

To start with,  I'd like recommendations on which turbo to use,  and whether or not to intercool.

Car is a Renault Le Car with a rear - mounted Nissan VQ30.

And...... GO!

do you have a guy that can weld? if so you'd probably be better off making your own exhaust out of a set of headers. That way you could mount the turbo wherever you like. Sounds like a fun project.

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: Ghettocharging advice wanted

Mr.Yuck wrote:
Cadillac Bob wrote:

Hey all,  been a while since I've been here....

I want to install a low boost turbo setup on my car,  to turn it into a "proper" R5 Turbo. I'm thinking 4 or 5 pounds of boost,  nothing excessive.   Ideally,  I'd like to keep everything stock (ECU, MAF,  injectors etc) but I'm open to advice.

To start with,  I'd like recommendations on which turbo to use,  and whether or not to intercool.

Car is a Renault Le Car with a rear - mounted Nissan VQ30.

And...... GO!

do you have a guy that can weld? if so you'd probably be better off making your own exhaust out of a set of headers. That way you could mount the turbo wherever you like. Sounds like a fun project.


Can Bob weld? You clearly haven't seen his car. smile smile

That sounds like a meaner joke than it is. What I really mean is... Guy with a midengine V6 Le Car that works... Can probably put an exhaust together.

Jest aside, why not the turbo from the Saab 9-5 V6, the one that only drew exhaust from one bank? Sized right. It was also a 3.0 V6, and low boost. Go junkyarding until you find a 9-5 with distinctive exhaust plumbing.

OMG Racing '94 Benz S500 #140: https://www.facebook.com/pages/OMG-Raci … 2774944199
Judges Choice and Regional Award winner! Chuckwalla '12, Buttonwillow '13, BFE GP '15, Miller '14 & '15, Sonoma '13,'14,'15. Inde '16,17.Finisher of the inaugural Lemons Rally, in the black Jag.... and IOE in the Super Snipe back in '12...look for the #820 Audi back on a track near you in 2017!!

Re: Ghettocharging advice wanted

It's not apples to apples, but here goes:
  We turbo'ed our VW 16V car that had finished top 5 multiple times prior to that point.  Because, as Phil says, "More Powah fixes everything in Lemons!".  We made it ghettotastic.  The pre turbo piping included a Campbell's soup can and a propane bottle (1 lb).  The intake was a fire extinguisher.  The turbo outlet was fabbed from a black pipe elbow and misc. exhaust parts found on the ground at Yank-a-part. Intercooler was a Mazda flat intercooler.  There were no less than 9 different car makes represented by a part on the build.  HOWEVER, it was done solidly mechanically speaking.  5 psi boost was easily attainable, even on the mechanical fuel injection.   The car was blazing fast.... Until other parts failed.  Surprisingly, VW trannys cannot take 180 estimated hp for 18 hour races.  We killed 4 trannys in 3 races.  Clutches wore extremely fast.  The motor ran flawlessly, we just killed everything attached to it. After 3 disappointing races, we UNturbo'ed it, and ran well again.

  Make sure that whatever you do, the rest of the car can handle it.  I don't know of many LeCar/Nissan Hybrid turbos on the interwebs you can leech info off of, so you will be flying blind unfortunately.  You may try the turbo off the 280 ZX to keep it in the Nismo family, they are sized for 2.8 L, 5-7 PSI boost stock.  They can easily push 10-12 psi with fuel management.

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FINALLY!!!!!!!!!

13 (edited by gunn 2017-06-08 03:15 PM)

Re: Ghettocharging advice wanted

Type44 wrote:
Mr.Yuck wrote:
Cadillac Bob wrote:

Hey all,  been a while since I've been here....

I want to install a low boost turbo setup on my car,  to turn it into a "proper" R5 Turbo. I'm thinking 4 or 5 pounds of boost,  nothing excessive.   Ideally,  I'd like to keep everything stock (ECU, MAF,  injectors etc) but I'm open to advice.

To start with,  I'd like recommendations on which turbo to use,  and whether or not to intercool.

Car is a Renault Le Car with a rear - mounted Nissan VQ30.

And...... GO!

do you have a guy that can weld? if so you'd probably be better off making your own exhaust out of a set of headers. That way you could mount the turbo wherever you like. Sounds like a fun project.


Can Bob weld? You clearly haven't seen his car. smile smile

That sounds like a meaner joke than it is. What I really mean is... Guy with a midengine V6 Le Car that works... Can probably put an exhaust together.

Jest aside, why not the turbo from the Saab 9-5 V6, the one that only drew exhaust from one bank? Sized right. It was also a 3.0 V6, and low boost. Go junkyarding until you find a 9-5 with distinctive exhaust plumbing.

I was just about to mention the Saab single bank turbo setup. Of course, those cars were eponymous with reliability
Saab B308 engine (93-03 Saab 9-5). Apparently it operated at 3.6PSI
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e173/Canonman424/saabturbosetup.png

Interesting Manifold design
http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/32IAAOSwcBhWXV-s/s-l300.jpg

Myopic Motorsport's #888 Bosozoku Texino Thunderbird (1995 tbird w/ 93 V8 swap + shopping cart rear wing)

Re: Ghettocharging advice wanted

Size the turbo by hp goals. I second the figure out what it can handle. Should be something safer for the transmission, what the motor can do, injectors, fuel pump, etc.

For turbo size, it needs to match engine flow. Too small and you'll have boost really early but will fall on its face early and will have to run higher pressure to make any power.

I'd guess you'd be looking for a smaller diesel truck turbo.

Definitely intercool it if you can. I'd guess compression ratio is pretty high stock on those engines. Having a way to retard timing should help, but don't pull tons of timing. Guessing it's crank triggered, might not be easy to do.

If your handling isn't fully sorted yet consider getting that so it's at least predictable. I've been in a mid engine converted car that had handling demons. Having quite a bit of power or very quick spool up on top of spooky handling could be a quick end to racing, at least for the day.

-Killer B's (as in rally) '84 4000Q 4.2V8. Audis never win?

Re: Ghettocharging advice wanted

Well,  you can ask Anton Lovett, Chris Blizzard, and Neal Losey how it handles.   Still needs some minor sorting,  but not too bad.

As to the question of down the line failures,  I completely hear you.   That's why I want to keep the boost low.   I'm cost conscious,  and I don't want to fall into that hole.

Really,  I only want about 30 more horsepower.   1996 VQ30 was rated at 190 HP.  I'm pretty confident that 220 won't break anything.   Car weighs 2100 pounds,  so that works in my favor as well from a breakage standpoint.

If it ain't broken, fix it 'til it is.

Re: Ghettocharging advice wanted

I didn't mean it to sound like handling was for sure was bad.  Just wasn't sure how sorted it is or if it was driven with an engine back there.  Having the power come in with a surge as a turbo wakes up can be a handful on a well sorted car.

I think you need bigger than a T3 turbo to run 5psi and get 220hp.  I'd guess a T3 would be at 10-12psi if tuning and intercooling is decent to get there.  Running a higher pressure on a smaller turbo isn't necessarily a bad thing engine wise as long as fuel and timing are good.  It can be tough keeping boost hoses on at higher pressures.  Lip rollers help a lot with that.

That SAAAAB turbo is likely going to have a very small exhaust side of the turbo.  Tuning also means different ignition timing and fueling on the turbo exhaust feeding cylinders (backpressure from the exhaust means less of a charge and more heat  in those cylinders.)  I'm guessing having the lowest factory boost setting i've heard of, the half fed turbo idea didn't pan out so well.

-Killer B's (as in rally) '84 4000Q 4.2V8. Audis never win?

Re: Ghettocharging advice wanted

Cadillac Bob wrote:

Well,  you can ask Anton Lovett, Chris Blizzard, and Neal Losey how it handles.   Still needs some minor sorting,  but not too bad.

As to the question of down the line failures,  I completely hear you.   That's why I want to keep the boost low.   I'm cost conscious,  and I don't want to fall into that hole.

Really,  I only want about 30 more horsepower.   1996 VQ30 was rated at 190 HP.  I'm pretty confident that 220 won't break anything.   Car weighs 2100 pounds,  so that works in my favor as well from a breakage standpoint.

Mill the heads, do some port work and upgrade the cams. You'll have more than 30hp and you won't have to cobble together some frankenhuffer.

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: Ghettocharging advice wanted

Get a battery-powered sawzall, go to the junkyard, slice two G17 turbochargers off of a saab (so you have your manifold flanges). Slice off those awful massive cat flanges, weld GT17 flanges on, use o2 sensor sockets from the old flange. Plumb for oil, water, air, and exhaust. Bonus: you won't need much of a muffler.

GT17 is internally wastegated at ~3 psi. At that rate your stock hardware should be fine, your knock sensor will take care of ignition if there are problems. You should be able to rig up a boost controller and run it up to 5-6psi before you run out of injectors, after that, you'd have to get creative (my vote is a used Megasquirt and ghetto-rigged 7th/8th injector).

K Car Stalker

Re: Ghettocharging advice wanted

I"m no huge help with picking a turbo, but there are some other issues that come with placement. You said you want it closer to the end of your tail pipe. Think through oiling. You need oil to drain out of the turbo really well or you'll have problems with pushing oil past the seals. If your placement puts it at or below oil level in the pan you're going to need a scavenge pump. It may even if it's got too far to travel horizontally. Most OEM applications keep it close to the engine with a big old drain straight out the bottom into the oil pan.

Turbos also necessitate good cooling. You'll want a good oil cooler if you don't already.

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Re: Ghettocharging advice wanted

DelinquentRacer wrote:
derekste wrote:

GT30R or GT35R then!

This was said in jest.

Yeah... "jest".... (-:

Actually, oversizing a turbo for low boost isn't necessarily a bad thing: small turbos have a much more dramatic transient response, and may be difficult to control the overboost.

IMO, a disco potato (GT28RS) would be too small for 3 liters. GT2871R probably as well.

"THE WONDERMENT CONSORTIUM"
Nothing's for certain, it could always go wrong. Come in when it's raining, go on out when it's gone.

Re: Ghettocharging advice wanted

derekste wrote:

Actually, oversizing a turbo for low boost isn't necessarily a bad thing: small turbos have a much more dramatic transient response, and may be difficult to control the overboost.

Well, this turbo should eliminate ANY transient response for a 3.0L.
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e346/GGolsan/big-turbo-21866_zps9mkcxo5r.jpg

Capt. Delinquent Racing
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The One & Only Taurus V8 SHO #31(now moved on to another OG Delinquent)
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22 (edited by gunn 2017-06-10 07:37 AM)

Re: Ghettocharging advice wanted

Another alternative to consider would be ghetto supercharging.
Sure, it's parasitic but oiling is sel

http://www.3800supercharger.net/how.html
You could setup manual control over the bypass valve and the amount of boost is set by the diameter of the pulley
A stock Tbird SC makes something like 8-10PSi of boost. Going with a larger diameter pulley will let you drop that # down.

Pros:
* Oiling is self contained
* Exhaust tract remains untouched
* In theory, You can manually electronically control the Bypass Control System to turn boost OFF.

Cons:
* You'll have to plumb it into your intake system w/ a custom adapter plate/mount in a position so the accessory belts can spin it up.


See examples of VQs with M90s. This setup uses some kind of extra long snout to relocate the SC to the right of the engine. Since hood clearance is NOT an issue for you, I suspect you could mount the SC more "above" or "in front" of the engine (as mounted transversely) so you can use the stock M90 as-is.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a86/Tatanko/craig_super1.jpg

Myopic Motorsport's #888 Bosozoku Texino Thunderbird (1995 tbird w/ 93 V8 swap + shopping cart rear wing)

Re: Ghettocharging advice wanted

Actually,  the more I think about it,  the better the supercharger sounds.   It's something I'm much more familiar with,  and I can fab an intake manifold pretty easy.

If it ain't broken, fix it 'til it is.

Re: Ghettocharging advice wanted

Cadillac Bob wrote:

Actually,  the more I think about it,  the better the supercharger sounds.   It's something I'm much more familiar with,  and I can fab an intake manifold pretty easy.

In the event you are able to get your mid-engined VQ ghetto charged without any drama, you can always go for epic ghetto twincharging. Now THAT would be truly glorious.

-g

Myopic Motorsport's #888 Bosozoku Texino Thunderbird (1995 tbird w/ 93 V8 swap + shopping cart rear wing)

Re: Ghettocharging advice wanted

Holset Turbo from a 1990's Dodge Ram diesel Cummins 5.9L B-series? Very sturdy Turbo and should be pretty easy to find used.

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