Topic: Forgive me Lemons, for I have sinned

They say idle hands are the devil's plaything and all that.  And well between waiting for the snow to thaw so I can find the Wartburg body and waiting on parts to finish the chassis I had some idle time so I committed the cardinal sin of Lemons.....I cleaned.

In my defense the car has to compete in the Grassroots Motorsports concourse too.

http://d12473838.serv160.ixwebhosting.com/images/transaxle.jpg

http://wartburg.misfittoysracing.com
OTTER: "I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part."
BLUTO: "We're just the guys to do it."

Re: Forgive me Lemons, for I have sinned

A pox upon thee, I say!

If it ain't broken, fix it 'til it is.

Re: Forgive me Lemons, for I have sinned

well, so much for the numbers matching east german grime

"This is the scene where I get shot," Bronson said. "I have these little squibs that explode to make it look like bullets are hitting." "Fascinating," said Bergman. "I never knew how they did that." "You mean," asked Bronson, "you don't use machine guns in your movies?"

Re: Forgive me Lemons, for I have sinned

man that makes stuff look UBER cheaty     quit doin that !!!!!!!!!!!!!

spectator "Lamest Day 09",DNF "American Irony" 2010,DNS "Capitol Offense"2010,DNF "Gingervitis"2011,DNF"ShowroomShlock"2011 maybe someday....                                                                                     
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
"luckily I didnt go into the mountain,.......I went over the cliff. I was doin 300 MPH sideways and 100 ft. down at the same time............"

5 (edited by JThw8 2010-02-23 07:26 PM)

Re: Forgive me Lemons, for I have sinned

prime suspect wrote:

man that makes stuff look UBER cheaty     quit doin that !!!!!!!!!!!!!

As uber cheaty as a VW beetle welded to a 1958 Wartburg can be.  As clean as it may be its still a freakish conglomeration of non performance oriented parts smile

If this were gonna be cheaty that wouldnt be a bug transaxle, it would be a porsche 5 speed or at least a bus unit that wouldnt grenade on us like this one is likely to do.

http://wartburg.misfittoysracing.com
OTTER: "I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part."
BLUTO: "We're just the guys to do it."

Re: Forgive me Lemons, for I have sinned

that looks like a Transform rebuild, hydraulic clutch; come on man at least don't out yourself.  Like the dune bug at MSR running dual 44's, may have been a wheee bit over 500.  because we know no one else is even close to going over the 500, lol.

the Syndicate - 30 losses and counting ...
89 VW Jettarosa - #337 (11 motors later) <> 67 Mercedes 200 - #200, winner "most with the least" MSR Feb 11, IOE at MSR June 11 <> 88 Mercedes 560 SEL <> 76 Mercedes SLC - IOE at ECR March 13 <> now pimping performance parts for 1970-1980's Mercedes SEL, SEC, SL, SLC's

Re: Forgive me Lemons, for I have sinned

Jackasic wrote:

that looks like a Transform rebuild, hydraulic clutch; come on man at least don't out yourself.  Like the dune bug at MSR running dual 44's, may have been a wheee bit over 500.  because we know no one else is even close to going over the 500, lol.

Definitely not a rebuild, like I said, if I was gonna cheat the transmission it wouldn't be with a bug unit.  We will have 2 or 3 other stock transaxles to swap as we blow them up though smile

It is a hydraulic clutch, since its not a full VW chassis in use the cable assembly wouldn't work and used dune buggy parts are cheap and plentiful.

http://wartburg.misfittoysracing.com
OTTER: "I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part."
BLUTO: "We're just the guys to do it."

Re: Forgive me Lemons, for I have sinned

JThw8 wrote:

In my defense the car has to compete in the Grassroots Motorsports concourse too.

Don't let anyone give you a hard time, then.  In prepping for last year's Concours d'Lemons I went through something like three whole boxes of these puppies

http://media.mydoitbest.com/imagerequest.aspx?sku=615793&amp;size=2&amp;warehouse=C&amp;newsize=200

on the engine, driveline, lower sheet metal, and suspension of my car, stripping away decades of authentic French (and a few years of less authentic Georgian and Washingtonian) grime.  Paid off, though.  I never saw the paint shine so nice.  I assume this is the technique employed by all serious concours competitors; for a big Duesenberg, maybe even four boxes.

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP, Organizer's Choice 2022 Hell on Wheels California Rally

Re: Forgive me Lemons, for I have sinned

You are allowed to clean up a Wartburg.

Re: Forgive me Lemons, for I have sinned

Clean is good.  Clean is free.

“Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.”

Re: Forgive me Lemons, for I have sinned

squidbreath wrote:

Clean is good.  Clean is free.

and it makes it easier to figure out where all those pesky leaks are coming from smile

http://wartburg.misfittoysracing.com
OTTER: "I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part."
BLUTO: "We're just the guys to do it."

12 (edited by Riktor 2010-02-24 06:07 AM)

Re: Forgive me Lemons, for I have sinned

JThw8 wrote:
squidbreath wrote:

Clean is good.  Clean is free.

and it makes it easier to figure out where all those pesky leaks are coming from smile

Just make sure you paint the engine so it looks like 1980's legos.

http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/3/1074/1181/27683090030_large.jpg

Sons of STIG
Judge Jonny, "So, what's the next formerly thought to be immune from winning that will steal the nickels?An MR2? A Fierro (ha ha ha)? A Datsun/Nissan Z? A Camaro?"

Re: Forgive me Lemons, for I have sinned

Pretty.

Let me know if you guys need any help or advice - we've been through a couple of races now with the Karmann Ghia. Even finished the last one!

Stuff like this makes my flat-8 miata idea seem good.

Re: Forgive me Lemons, for I have sinned

Zachreligious wrote:

Pretty.

Let me know if you guys need any help or advice - we've been through a couple of races now with the Karmann Ghia. Even finished the last one!

Stuff like this makes my flat-8 miata idea seem good.

I appreciate it, unfortunately the transaxle and rear torsion are all that remain of VW so alot gets lost in the translation.   The VW stuff I know pretty well, its all the other wierdness that is making my head hurt.

Of course any tips you have for the survivability of the the transaxle and CVs is appreciated.  We are running solid mounts and I'll be ghetto fabbing a kafer brace so everything should be pretty solid back there. 

Engine put out 135hp when it was new, which is to say about 180,000 miles later we're lucky if we're breaking 100hp so I dont think we'll overstress things too terribly.

http://wartburg.misfittoysracing.com
OTTER: "I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part."
BLUTO: "We're just the guys to do it."

Re: Forgive me Lemons, for I have sinned

JThw8 wrote:

I appreciate it, unfortunately the transaxle and rear torsion are all that remain of VW so alot gets lost in the translation.   The VW stuff I know pretty well, its all the other wierdness that is making my head hurt.

Of course any tips you have for the survivability of the the transaxle and CVs is appreciated.  We are running solid mounts and I'll be ghetto fabbing a kafer brace so everything should be pretty solid back there. 

Engine put out 135hp when it was new, which is to say about 180,000 miles later we're lucky if we're breaking 100hp so I dont think we'll overstress things too terribly.

The only advice I have is don't put more than 60hp or so through them wink. We've never had more than that. We did change the fluids and repack the cv's before the first race. Haven't noticed any issues. We did have a shifter issue, lost the bushing in the tunnel, which made getting into second gear impossible, so you may want to take some time to ensure that you shift mechanism is properly aligned and adjusted.

Might want to talk to the buckaroo guys also, they've been through a transaxle, so they might have some info on what went wrong with theirs.

Re: Forgive me Lemons, for I have sinned

Zachreligious wrote:
JThw8 wrote:

I appreciate it, unfortunately the transaxle and rear torsion are all that remain of VW so alot gets lost in the translation.   The VW stuff I know pretty well, its all the other wierdness that is making my head hurt.

Of course any tips you have for the survivability of the the transaxle and CVs is appreciated.  We are running solid mounts and I'll be ghetto fabbing a kafer brace so everything should be pretty solid back there. 

Engine put out 135hp when it was new, which is to say about 180,000 miles later we're lucky if we're breaking 100hp so I dont think we'll overstress things too terribly.

The only advice I have is don't put more than 60hp or so through them wink. We've never had more than that. We did change the fluids and repack the cv's before the first race. Haven't noticed any issues. We did have a shifter issue, lost the bushing in the tunnel, which made getting into second gear impossible, so you may want to take some time to ensure that you shift mechanism is properly aligned and adjusted.

Might want to talk to the buckaroo guys also, they've been through a transaxle, so they might have some info on what went wrong with theirs.

Ahh, the $2 shifter bushing in the tunnel, cheap to replace but a pain in the azz.  Luckily since we cut off the VW tunnel right in front of the shifter it's a simple replacment on ours and I did it last night.

They'll hold alot more than 60hp.  I've been picking the brains of the gurus in our local VW club 2 of which are drag racers or retired drag racers and I asked them what I needed to do to make it hold 200hp reliably and they said nothing.  Not sure I quite feel 200 is safe on stock but I feel pretty comfortable up to about 125 to 150.  I ran my 100hp formula vee on a stock swingaxle for awhile until I could afford a "good" box and it never had issues.  Of course all of this assumes a properly maintained and serviced transaxle which ours probably aren't wink

I've got the CV's off and cleaned right now, will repack them before going in.  I guess we should consider changing the fluid in that trans (yeah I cleaned it all up but I didnt touch the fluids)

We have our 3000 mile shakedown cruise before Lemons (aka BABE rally) so we should have the shifter adjustement sorted by Lemons time

Thanks for the input, it's always good to know what we may be missing or not thinking of or just to have confirmation that we are thinking of the right things.

http://wartburg.misfittoysracing.com
OTTER: "I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part."
BLUTO: "We're just the guys to do it."

Re: Forgive me Lemons, for I have sinned

Use CAT brand "Desert Gold" grease in the CV's.  It has the best high pressure specs of any grease I have seen.

Cars, cameras, and easy living...

Re: Forgive me Lemons, for I have sinned

GnomeFabTech wrote:

Use CAT brand "Desert Gold" grease in the CV's.  It has the best high pressure specs of any grease I have seen.

And goes on like road tar...

Sons of STIG
Judge Jonny, "So, what's the next formerly thought to be immune from winning that will steal the nickels?An MR2? A Fierro (ha ha ha)? A Datsun/Nissan Z? A Camaro?"

Re: Forgive me Lemons, for I have sinned

Tell me more about the CAT grease....do you mean it won't centrifuge out of a torn boot? That would be great!

Jim "Endo" Anderton
30 years of racing and still not Brambilla.....

Re: Forgive me Lemons, for I have sinned

+1 for interest in the grease.  I've always just used a good marine grade bearing grease but Im open to new tricks.  Where can it be purchased?

http://wartburg.misfittoysracing.com
OTTER: "I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part."
BLUTO: "We're just the guys to do it."

21 (edited by Riktor 2010-02-24 11:11 AM)

Re: Forgive me Lemons, for I have sinned

From CAT's website:

NLGI # 2
Ambient Range –20° to +60° C/–4° to +140° F
Operating Range –23° to +232° C/–10° to +450° F
Base Fluid Type Synthetic
Thickener Type Calcium Sulfonate Complex
Color Gold
% Molybdenum disulfi de 5
Worked Penetration (mm) 265-295
1 – / + e k o r t s 0 0 0 , 0 0 1 / e g n a h C %
Roll Stability w/H2O, % change +/–1
Viscosity Index, Min 125
Viscosity @ 100° C, cSt 38-42
Viscosity @ 40° C, cSt 370-425
4 Ball Wear (mm) Typ. 0.45
4 Ball E.P. Weld Point (kg) Min. 620
Timken E.P. Test OK load (lb) Typ. 65
Oxidation – psi drop/500 hr Max 5
Rust Test Pass
Salt Fog Test, hours +1,100
Copper Corrosion 1a
Dropping Point +302° C (+575° F)

VS Amsoil Sythetic

Lithium Complex High Viscosity Grease (GVC)

NLGI Grade 2
Thickener, type Lithium Complex
Penetration, worked - ASTM D-217 285
Dropping point, °C (°F) - ASTM D-2265 275 (527)
Rust - ASTM D-1743 Pass
Timken #OK Load - ASTM D-2509 60
Four-Ball Extreme Pressure Weld Load, kg 315
Water Washout ASTM D-1264 @ 80°C 2.5%
Base Oil Viscosity (40°C, cSt) 325
Texture smooth
Color Amber/Brown
Copper Corrosion - ASTM D-4048 1B
Oil Separation (percent wt. loss) - ASTM D-1742 1.5 max

Sons of STIG
Judge Jonny, "So, what's the next formerly thought to be immune from winning that will steal the nickels?An MR2? A Fierro (ha ha ha)? A Datsun/Nissan Z? A Camaro?"

Re: Forgive me Lemons, for I have sinned

In High School I had a white 59 Baja Bug named Herbst (evil Herbie) with no emergency brake and a short in the ignition that would sometimes cause it to keep running even with the key out. Loads of fun showing friends how the car had a mind of it's own.

Till one day (Thanksgiving day 1987 in fact) I was driving along a dirt road through the woods to grandmothers house minding my own business when I hit a bump and the shifter lurched forward while the gas pedal dropped to the floor on it's own, full throttle.

YEEEAAAAAAHHH!!!!

No e-brake, cant turn it off, full throttle, can't get it out of gear you could hear me scream into the next county. Mud and dirt flew everywhere. This is the day the car got it's revised name.

Another bump and everything was normal except for my wet pants. I touched the gas and the car took off like a bat out of hell again.

Turns out the front nose-cone bushing was billet aluminum and had worn the 2 mounting holes till it busted, which let the motor drop, which yanked on the throttle cable, shifting rod, clutch cable and shorted the ignition wire to the battery feed all at the same time.

I replaced that g&@ d@#$%d mount 3 times and the nose cone once before putting a rubber mount back in. No matter what I did it kept wearing away the aluminum and led to failure within weeks. (The other 2 mounts were good).

Made me a better defensive driver, but I really only had deer, cliffs, bear and logging trucks to worry about.

I'd suggest considering a polyurethane mount, as a safety item.

"Real ZomBees prefer Bacon"
IOE(x2) MGB/SAAB 96, Judge's Choice, Class C Win, & 2011 Hooniverse Car of the Year!
MRolla, Stick Figure/Animal House, Free Range MR2, SAAB Sonett, "The Death Flip"
2008 Exoskeleton Jag Fiasco, Concours d Lemons - Rue Britannia, worse British car.

Re: Forgive me Lemons, for I have sinned

ROFL... awesome story and an excellent moral/suggestion.

Sons of STIG
Judge Jonny, "So, what's the next formerly thought to be immune from winning that will steal the nickels?An MR2? A Fierro (ha ha ha)? A Datsun/Nissan Z? A Camaro?"

Re: Forgive me Lemons, for I have sinned

"Sparky" Pete wrote:

In High School I had a white 59 Baja Bug named Herbst (evil Herbie) with no emergency brake and a short in the ignition that would sometimes cause it to keep running even with the key out. Loads of fun showing friends how the car had a mind of it's own.

Till one day (Thanksgiving day 1987 in fact) I was driving along a dirt road through the woods to grandmothers house minding my own business when I hit a bump and the shifter lurched forward while the gas pedal dropped to the floor on it's own, full throttle.

YEEEAAAAAAHHH!!!!

No e-brake, cant turn it off, full throttle, can't get it out of gear you could hear me scream into the next county. Mud and dirt flew everywhere. This is the day the car got it's revised name.

Another bump and everything was normal except for my wet pants. I touched the gas and the car took off like a bat out of hell again.

Turns out the front nose-cone bushing was billet aluminum and had worn the 2 mounting holes till it busted, which let the motor drop, which yanked on the throttle cable, shifting rod, clutch cable and shorted the ignition wire to the battery feed all at the same time.

I replaced that g&@ d@#$%d mount 3 times and the nose cone once before putting a rubber mount back in. No matter what I did it kept wearing away the aluminum and led to failure within weeks. (The other 2 mounts were good).

Made me a better defensive driver, but I really only had deer, cliffs, bear and logging trucks to worry about.

I'd suggest considering a polyurethane mount, as a safety item.

Bugs just seem to have a mind of their own dont they wink  I had a similar experinece in a solo vee on during an autocross, but at least my ignition kill worked.

For this mutant we are taking a 2 pronged attack with solid (steel not aluminum) mounts and a home built kafer bar/truss bar.  The biggest killer of these transaxles and related componens is the amount of flex inherent in the transmission, if you limit it with solid mounts you just exaggerate the amount of flex in the frame horns themselves.  The kafer bar then solidifies the frame horns and we may end up having to fab a rear motor mount as well to compensate for all the weight just hanging off the transaxle back there.

http://wartburg.misfittoysracing.com
OTTER: "I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part."
BLUTO: "We're just the guys to do it."

Re: Forgive me Lemons, for I have sinned

Looking much better than when I saw it last, Jim.

Captain: Speedycop & The Gang Of Outlaws -'94 Mark VIII (Least Horrible Yank Tank Stafford '09, NOLA '10) '61 Caddy (Org Choice-NL '09) '63 Tbird (EPIC Repair Failure-Gingerman '10, I Got Screwed-Summit Pt '10, I.O.E. WINNER Stafford '10!) '77 Lancia Scorpion (I.O.E. WINNER Joliet 2010!) '67 Galaxie 500 (Judges Choice-CMP '11)
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