Topic: 2019 Fire system requirements

Did I miss the memo? I see we need a system, do we know if it has to be SFI/FIA certified? I'd like to only buy once, and time is getting short for Inde.

I'd prefer to be able to refill a discharged bottle myself. I often host noob A&Ds, and the old guys on the team aren't necessarily flexible enough to move around a primed fire trigger during driver changes (or remember it's primed).

That guy

Re: 2019 Fire system requirements

"3.F.3 Onboard Fire Suppression System or Extinguisher. Lemons EXCEEDINGLY STRONGLY recommends a properly plumbed, fully charged, securely mounted SFI- or FIA-certified onboard fire suppression system with agent-appropriate nozzles. Onboard fire suppression will become mandatory on 1/1/19. Minimum acceptable is a 5-lb system covering the driver compartment and engine compartment."

I'd say yes.

Re: 2019 Fire system requirements

DirtyDuc wrote:

I'd prefer to be able to refill a discharged bottle myself.

Is there such a system?  If so, I'm unaware.  I'm sure our AFFF system is not a DIY affair to recharge it.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: 2019 Fire system requirements

To my knowledge there is no SFI / FIA certified system that can be recharged outside of a certified service center.  The best you can do is keep a spare bottle on hand.

Electric Mayhem Racing

Re: 2019 Fire system requirements

VKZ24 wrote:
DirtyDuc wrote:

I'd prefer to be able to refill a discharged bottle myself.

Is there such a system?  If so, I'm unaware.  I'm sure our AFFF system is not a DIY affair to recharge it.

They do exist https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/group … IRECHARGER but they cannot be certified, as it is prohibited by the certification language.

From SFI 17.1:

2.7 On Board Fire Suppression Systems shall be inspected for recertification at least every two years after the date of original certification or as specified by the certifying manufacturer. When a unit is determined to be acceptable for continued service, a new conformance label marked with the inspection date shall be used. In-field recertification is permitted, but ONLY by the original manufacturer or its authorized agent. Mailing of certification labels to customers is strictly prohibited. Systems shall have a maximum field service life of 6 years from the original date of installation. At the end of the 6-year period, all systems must be returned to the manufacturer or a certified recycling service center for lawful disassembly, recycling and decommissioning. No system may be refilled more than 6 times during its 6-year field service life.

2.8 Any On Board Fire Suppression System pertaining to this specification shall remain as constructed and tested by the original manufacturer and not modified. Each manufacturer must provide some means by which to indicate that the cylinder was filled with agent by the original manufacturer. Cylinders may not be filled or refilled by anyone other than the original manufacturer.


Apparently, the manufacturer can delegate the refilling to an authorized service center, but not the end-user.

This question has been asked before, but if the system is discharged accidentally or for a minor event, does this mean that you then put the car on the trailer unless you have brought a spare (certified) cylinder? A spare cylinder that also needs to be re-certified every 2 years?

We Audi Be Faster
'85 Audi Coupe G(in &) T(onic)

6 (edited by bilcoh 2018-10-17 07:53 AM)

Re: 2019 Fire system requirements

mgavro wrote:

To my knowledge there is no SFI / FIA certified system that can be recharged outside of a certified service center.  The best you can do is keep a spare bottle on hand.


+1 recently researched and purchased a system. Nothing you can fill yourself is SFI/FIA rated.  And a spare bottle is the same cost as a 2nd system, unfortunately.  We went with a Spa Techniques 4L mechanical.  From all I’ve read, accidental discharge is actually really rare (of your fire system, at least) as long as you put the pull cable out of the way. Got one from Racer Wholesale for $299, free shipping.  I think it was $100 off for some reason.

Super easy install, BTW.  4 nozzles and 2 pull cables.

As for the question about what happens if you dump the system at the track, having friends with the same system and a shared backup seems like the way to go if you can het that organized.

Re: 2019 Fire system requirements

I see on the Pegasus website the hazardous material shipping charges is $33 alone.  That's $66 plus the re-cert fee, so I'm wondering what the total of the re-cert is going to cost.  We bought our system over a year ago so the re-cert will be required sooner than later.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: 2019 Fire system requirements

VKZ24 wrote:

I see on the Pegasus website the hazardous material shipping charges is $33 alone.  That's $66 plus the re-cert fee, so I'm wondering what the total of the re-cert is going to cost.  We bought our system over a year ago so the re-cert will be required sooner than later.

The hazmat charge is only for shipments by air. If you are shipping ground, the AFFF material is not considered hazardous.

I verified this by calling the UPS hazmat office and they told me that as long as the contents of the bottle are not restricted for transport (per section 14 of the MSDS, available on the manufacturer's website) and the pressurized canister is less than 181psi, then its not considered hazardous to ship via ground.

We Audi Be Faster
'85 Audi Coupe G(in &) T(onic)

9 (edited by VKZ24 2018-10-17 08:56 AM)

Re: 2019 Fire system requirements

RSB wrote:

The hazmat charge is only for shipments by air. If you are shipping ground, the AFFF material is not considered hazardous.

I verified this by calling the UPS hazmat office and they told me that as long as the contents of the bottle are not restricted for transport (per section 14 of the MSDS, available on the manufacturer's website) and the pressurized canister is less than 181psi, then its not considered hazardous to ship via ground.

Thanks for the info, but I was going by what I read on the Pegasus site, which disagrees.

Link

I did find where their charge is $99 for a 4.0L system, which is what we have in our car.

This is where we got ours:

Link

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

10

Re: 2019 Fire system requirements

I have seen a lot of different information from different companies, that's why I called UPS to verify.

I'm guessing that Pegasus is just looking to maximize their sale. They also require you to discharge the system before sending it to them. Again, not necessary based on what I have researched.

We re-certified ours in April of 2017, at Stable Energies in NJ. We have a 4 liter SPA system and they charged $105 + $15 shipping + whatever I spent to ship it to them.

When I dropped it at the UPS counter, I told the clerk exactly what was in the package, as we were on a tight schedule and I didn't want it to get held up if someone further along in the process discovered that it was a pressurized cylinder and wasn't sure what to do. UPS recommends that you include a copy of the MSDS so that its clear as to what is in the cylinder. Its basically soapy water and pressurized cylinders are only deemed  hazardous if they are above 181psi.

We Audi Be Faster
'85 Audi Coupe G(in &) T(onic)

Re: 2019 Fire system requirements

RSB wrote:

I have seen a lot of different information from different companies, that's why I called UPS to verify.

I'm guessing that Pegasus is just looking to maximize their sale. They also require you to discharge the system before sending it to them. Again, not necessary based on what I have researched.

We re-certified ours in April of 2017, at Stable Energies in NJ. We have a 4 liter SPA system and they charged $105 + $15 shipping + whatever I spent to ship it to them.

When I dropped it at the UPS counter, I told the clerk exactly what was in the package, as we were on a tight schedule and I didn't want it to get held up if someone further along in the process discovered that it was a pressurized cylinder and wasn't sure what to do. UPS recommends that you include a copy of the MSDS so that its clear as to what is in the cylinder. Its basically soapy water and pressurized cylinders are only deemed  hazardous if they are above 181psi.

Thanks again for all the info RSB. Can I bug you to answer a few more questions?

Do you have the link to the MDS handy that you could post here?  Also, I didn't see any info on the Stable Energies site as to re-certification.  Did I miss it, or do I have to call them for the info?  I don't want to show up to tech and fail because my cert is out of date so I'm being proactive on this.

Is there a reason NOT to discharge the cylinder before sending it? I would think it would weigh a little less when empty, and lower the cost of shipping.

Since a lot of these questions are bound to come up with the new rules taking effect in 2019, maybe the info (once assembled) needs to be included in the Lemons tech FAQ section.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

12

Re: 2019 Fire system requirements

VKZ24 wrote:

Thanks again for all the info RSB. Can I bug you to answer a few more questions?

Do you have the link to the MDS handy that you could post here?  Also, I didn't see any info on the Stable Energies site as to re-certification.  Did I miss it, or do I have to call them for the info?  I don't want to show up to tech and fail because my cert is out of date so I'm being proactive on this.

Is there a reason NOT to discharge the cylinder before sending it? I would think it would weigh a little less when empty, and lower the cost of shipping.

Since a lot of these questions are bound to come up with the new rules taking effect in 2019, maybe the info (once assembled) needs to be included in the Lemons tech FAQ section.


Agreed, 4 liters is about 6 pounds, but IIRC, the guy at Stable Energies told me NOT to discharge it, as he wanted to witness the discharge process, to make sure that there were no dried-up clumps of material coming out of the cylinder.

I don't think that the Stable Energies website says anything about re-cert. I found them on the SPA Technique website and just gave them a call: http://www.spatechnique.com/dealers/
Note that the dealers listed here are NOT all service centers, and some can't re-certify (only sell).

The MSDS sheet for the AFFF material is on the Spa Technique website:  http://www.spatechnique.com/technical/

We Audi Be Faster
'85 Audi Coupe G(in &) T(onic)

13 (edited by squidrope 2018-10-17 02:29 PM)

Re: 2019 Fire system requirements

Generally on board with safety items that Lemons requires.  This goes too far IMO.  The costs of the system, 2 year re-cert, and associated shipping costs seem like a tremendous amount spent by all of the Lemons teams.  I vaguely remember someone posting about a fire in one instance where this may have helped.  Seems like this is a "keep the insurance rates down" move, that'll cost the teams a lot more than if they raised entry fees accordingly.  Also adds another thing to the to do list, and as someone else mentioned accidental discharge.  I won't buy 2 systems.  I will spend more on the gas version so if it does go off part way through the weekend, nobody but our team will know.

Winner "We Got Screwed" award NHMS 2017
#847 Batmobile  aka-"Beulah"
https://www.facebook.com/squidroperacing/

Re: 2019 Fire system requirements

I asked because last year when the rule change was announced, there was a 4L system that was the same as the sfi version, it was just not certified because you could refill it yourself.

Now it seems not to exist, so my question appears to be irrelevant.

That guy

Re: 2019 Fire system requirements

squidrope wrote:

Generally on board with safety items that Lemons requires.  This goes too far IMO.  The costs of the system, 2 year re-cert, and associated shipping costs seem like a tremendous amount spent by all of the Lemons teams.  I vaguely remember someone posting about a fire in one instance where this may have helped.  Seems like this is a "keep the insurance rates down" move, that'll cost the teams a lot more than if they raised entry fees accordingly.  Also adds another thing to the to do list, and as someone else mentioned accidental discharge.  I won't buy 2 systems.  I will spend more on the gas version so if it does go off part way through the weekend, nobody but our team will know.


I'm not so sure insurance premiums can bare the brunt of the blame, if "blame" is the fair word to use.

I think it is also a "Am I really doing all I can to make sure nobody dies?" move. Because it only takes one death that someone can point to and say "Well you know you could have enacted rule XYZ which is a standard of practice in most automotive racing events and that could have prevented this tragedy and you didn't, so it's your fault" which could evolve to the word "negligence". Once you are presented with information and standard of practice recommendation by a respected person in the field of safety and yet you, as just a promoter, choose not to heed the recommendations and ignore industry standards... Well, hope you don't like that new house near the beach ya just got.  Ignorance is bliss. But to ignore potentially life-saving advice becomes negligence.

Evolution.

Evolve or die out. That goes for the industry and for the participants.

It would be interesting to me to see if there has been a shift in the demographics of the participants over the years.

Re: 2019 Fire system requirements

Spank wrote:
squidrope wrote:

Generally on board with safety items that Lemons requires.  This goes too far IMO.  The costs of the system, 2 year re-cert, and associated shipping costs seem like a tremendous amount spent by all of the Lemons teams.  I vaguely remember someone posting about a fire in one instance where this may have helped.  Seems like this is a "keep the insurance rates down" move, that'll cost the teams a lot more than if they raised entry fees accordingly.  Also adds another thing to the to do list, and as someone else mentioned accidental discharge.  I won't buy 2 systems.  I will spend more on the gas version so if it does go off part way through the weekend, nobody but our team will know.


I'm not so sure insurance premiums can bare the brunt of the blame, if "blame" is the fair word to use.

I think it is also a "Am I really doing all I can to make sure nobody dies?" move. Because it only takes one death that someone can point to and say "Well you know you could have enacted rule XYZ which is a standard of practice in most automotive racing events and that could have prevented this tragedy and you didn't, so it's your fault" which could evolve to the word "negligence". Once you are presented with information and standard of practice recommendation by a respected person in the field of safety and yet you, as just a promoter, choose not to heed the recommendations and ignore industry standards... Well, hope you don't like that new house near the beach ya just got.  Ignorance is bliss. But to ignore potentially life-saving advice becomes negligence.

Evolution.

Evolve or die out. That goes for the industry and for the participants.

It would be interesting to me to see if there has been a shift in the demographics of the participants over the years.

I'd bet the demographics drove the decision.

On the other hand I would expect this to be a continued insurance objective as the company watches "big" series.

That guy

17 (edited by DirtyDuc 2018-10-17 09:46 PM)

Re: 2019 Fire system requirements

.

That guy

Re: 2019 Fire system requirements

.

That guy

Re: 2019 Fire system requirements

Spank wrote:
squidrope wrote:

Generally on board with safety items that Lemons requires.  This goes too far IMO.  The costs of the system, 2 year re-cert, and associated shipping costs seem like a tremendous amount spent by all of the Lemons teams.  I vaguely remember someone posting about a fire in one instance where this may have helped.  Seems like this is a "keep the insurance rates down" move, that'll cost the teams a lot more than if they raised entry fees accordingly.  Also adds another thing to the to do list, and as someone else mentioned accidental discharge.  I won't buy 2 systems.  I will spend more on the gas version so if it does go off part way through the weekend, nobody but our team will know.


I'm not so sure insurance premiums can bare the brunt of the blame, if "blame" is the fair word to use.

I think it is also a "Am I really doing all I can to make sure nobody dies?" move. Because it only takes one death that someone can point to and say "Well you know you could have enacted rule XYZ which is a standard of practice in most automotive racing events and that could have prevented this tragedy and you didn't, so it's your fault" which could evolve to the word "negligence". Once you are presented with information and standard of practice recommendation by a respected person in the field of safety and yet you, as just a promoter, choose not to heed the recommendations and ignore industry standards... Well, hope you don't like that new house near the beach ya just got.  Ignorance is bliss. But to ignore potentially life-saving advice becomes negligence.

Evolution.

Evolve or die out. That goes for the industry and for the participants.

It would be interesting to me to see if there has been a shift in the demographics of the participants over the years.


IMHO: I think if it were REALLY and ONLY a 'nobody dies' concern then user re-fill, non-cert required systems would be allowed as an option.  This would make sure that all cars had a system but allow teams to decide on what was best for them.  Kind of like letting teams decide if they want a minimum size extinguishers or go larger, window nets, and letting drivers decide if they want a 2 layer fire suit or go with more layers if they choose.  As a matter of fact our car would have had a system in it already if it were not for the announced change for next year.


What 'safer' races?  Eliminate either A class or C class.



Bill

2017 Thompson Motor Speedway #36 Sabrina Duncan Racing...... WTF.........
2016 Thompson Motor Speedway #36 Sabrina Duncan's Revenge, IOE Trophy, 5th Place 'C' Class 1977 Ford Pinto
2009 Stafford Motor Speedway #16 Team Teflon, 11th Place (overall) 1997 Saturn SL2

Re: 2019 Fire system requirements

Compared to local dirt and asphalt tracks in my area, Lemons racing is REALLY safe as far as the requirements, and I'm OK with that.  The local tracks don't require a H&N restraint, and some guys even wear jeans and regular shoes!

I'm not thrilled about the 2-year cert requirement on the required fire suppression system, but otherwise I think it's a good move.  Good enough that we bought a system 2 years ago because we thought it would be a good idea.

We spend 5X more on new tires and brakes per race than a re-cert costs, so in the overall scheme of spending, it's hardly a blip on the spreadsheet.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

21

Re: 2019 Fire system requirements

Agreed, not bad when you look at it as:

$125 re-cert cost / 2 years / 3 races per year / 4 drivers = $5.25/driver/race

We have started charging each driver a 'maintenance reserve fee' of $50 for each race to cover this, belts and other stuff that needs regular fixin' / replacin' that is not otherwise covered.

We Audi Be Faster
'85 Audi Coupe G(in &) T(onic)

Re: 2019 Fire system requirements

https://www.upr.com/series-158203-fire- … ystem.html

I do remember correctly. And my reading of the rules says "recommend SFI or FIA approved. Require onboard fire suppression of 5 lbs or more."

The intervening sentence doesn't make it clear if the requirement for next year will be updated to "Require onboard SFI or FIA approved fire suppression" or left as it stands.

That guy

Re: 2019 Fire system requirements

And the memo is out. Sfi it is.

That guy

Re: 2019 Fire system requirements

DirtyDuc wrote:

And the memo is out. Sfi it is.

Or FIA...but yeah.

Re: 2019 Fire system requirements

I'm not in love with this rule change. I've been using Fire Charger AFF refillable systems in 3 cars. The Lemons Alfa, SCCA and Vintage. Racing Tech Stewards have inspected all of them and been fine with them.

I've had 2 accidental discharge in 8 years - both at the track and both times had the kit on hand to refill and recharge to go on to race.

Seeing what you see in a Lemons paddock, do you really think that ALL the teams that have a accidental discharge will announce it and decline to race? I'm betting not. And a spare fire bottle is probably not high on the list of priorities.

Buuuuutttt, I get it. We can't be trusted to fill and recharge our own bottles an the Insurance industry owns us. And there is also that Safe is good. Burns are bad.

Greg

1987 Alfa Milano (Bellissima since 2008), Racing since 2008 Stafford Springs,  2nd overall 2011 NJMP, 4th at NHMS 2011, 2nd at Summit 2011, Into the wall hard at Stafford Springs 2011, 2nd at Monticello 2013, 3rd at NHMS 2013, 2nd at NHMS 2016. 2nd at NJMP 2018

25,000 racing miles in 32 races in 10 years. Yes its the same motor. Tell me again how Alfas suck? Update: Big moneyshift = new motor