Topic: 2019 Rules are out!

Per the email from Lemons HQ:


2019 RULES: NO SURPRISES (I.E. NO EXCUSES)
As promised in last season's Rulebook, fire suppression is now mandatory. Everything else that's been messed with is hygiene.

The official 2019 Lemons Rulebook is up, and not much has changed. Every car needs onboard fire suppression in 2019, but you already knew that. Read the 2018-to-2019 Strike-Thru doc to see every letter and comma that's changed--there aren't many.

It's all live now in the updated Official Lemons Rulebook, located as always at https://24hoursoflemons.com/prices-rules/.

Carry on.... Best JL

2 (edited by Greg S 2018-12-11 09:33 AM)

Re: 2019 Rules are out!

Far be it from me to make our racing more expensive or complicated but, after racing at Road Atlanta in the monsoon like conditions I am going to wire up a set of tail lights and install some crappy front lights as well in my upcoming build.

Racing down the straight at over 105 MPH in the pouring rain I could not see anything with the amount of mist being generated. A few cars had lights, they were a god send. You could make out them in your mirrors and see them up ahead.

It took a lot of faith in our fellow drivers to stay in the throttle down that straight with terrible visibility. Great driving this last weekend.

If you have brake lights - tail lights wouldn't be very hard. I know I'll light a flame war but I think we should be putting some lights on our cars.

Greg

1987 Alfa Milano (Bellissima since 2008), Racing since 2008 Stafford Springs,  2nd overall 2011 NJMP, 4th at NHMS 2011, 2nd at Summit 2011, Into the wall hard at Stafford Springs 2011, 2nd at Monticello 2013, 3rd at NHMS 2013, 2nd at NHMS 2016. 2nd at NJMP 2018

25,000 racing miles in 32 races in 10 years. Yes its the same motor. Tell me again how Alfas suck? Update: Big moneyshift = new motor

Re: 2019 Rules are out!

I'm just glad to see the silly rule regarding taping over lights and mirrors has finally been eliminated.

As for the fire suppression system, we installed that almost 2 years ago since we all thought it was just a good idea.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: 2019 Rules are out!

Greg S wrote:

Far be it from me to make our racing more expensive or complicated but, after racing at Road Atlanta in the monsoon like conditions I am going to wire up a set of tail lights and install some crappy front lights as well in my upcoming build.

Racing down the straight at over 105 MPH in the pouring rain I could not see anything with the amount of mist being generated. A few cars had lights, they were a god send. You could make out them in your mirrors and see them up ahead.

It took a lot of faith in our fellow drivers to stay in the throttle down that straight with terrible visibility. Great driving this last weekend.

If you have brake lights - tail lights wouldn't be very hard. I know I'll light a flame war but I think we should be putting some lights on our cars.

Greg

To be clear, the cheapest option would be to simply not go out on the track at 105 mph in a monsoon.

We’re  amateurs racing for nickles, discretion is the better part of stupidity.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)

Re: 2019 Rules are out!

Guildenstern wrote:
Greg S wrote:

Far be it from me to make our racing more expensive or complicated but, after racing at Road Atlanta in the monsoon like conditions I am going to wire up a set of tail lights and install some crappy front lights as well in my upcoming build.

Racing down the straight at over 105 MPH in the pouring rain I could not see anything with the amount of mist being generated. A few cars had lights, they were a god send. You could make out them in your mirrors and see them up ahead.

It took a lot of faith in our fellow drivers to stay in the throttle down that straight with terrible visibility. Great driving this last weekend.

If you have brake lights - tail lights wouldn't be very hard. I know I'll light a flame war but I think we should be putting some lights on our cars.

Greg

To be clear, the cheapest option would be to simply not go out on the track at 105 mph in a monsoon.

We’re  amateurs racing for nickles, discretion is the better part of stupidity.

Well all the cars that made it on track and raced in those conditions put on our big boy pants and made it work. There was very little contact and empty space in the penalty box. Kudos to all the drivers and teams we raced with. We're talking Lemons here - good decisions are not our specialty.

Lights would make it safer.

1987 Alfa Milano (Bellissima since 2008), Racing since 2008 Stafford Springs,  2nd overall 2011 NJMP, 4th at NHMS 2011, 2nd at Summit 2011, Into the wall hard at Stafford Springs 2011, 2nd at Monticello 2013, 3rd at NHMS 2013, 2nd at NHMS 2016. 2nd at NJMP 2018

25,000 racing miles in 32 races in 10 years. Yes its the same motor. Tell me again how Alfas suck? Update: Big moneyshift = new motor

6 (edited by gus 2018-12-11 04:10 PM)

Re: 2019 Rules are out!

VKZ24 wrote:

I'm just glad to see the silly rule regarding taping over lights and mirrors has finally been eliminated.

That and the removal of the jack and jack stands requirement at tech are hands down the best parts of these new rules!

Mandatory fire suppression is fine by me and should be far from a surprise for everyone here. $400 split over 3-4 drivers over 2 years of racing works out to about $30 for each of us every race, which is small change compared to the $1380 entry fee and comes with the welcomed benefit to safety.

Re: 2019 Rules are out!

gus wrote:
VKZ24 wrote:

I'm just glad to see the silly rule regarding taping over lights and mirrors has finally been eliminated.

That and the removal of the jack and jack stands requirement at tech are hands down the best parts of these new rules!

Mandatory fire suppression is fine by me and should be far from a surprise for everyone here. $400 split over 3-4 drivers over 2 years of racing works out to about $30 for each of us every race, which is small change compared to the $1380 entry fee and comes with the welcomed benefit to safety.

Come on, it's comedy gold when you forget to remove the Jack and stands from the trunk. Then on the first fast lap, your driver radios "THE FN CAR IS COMING APART WTF IS THAT NOISE" and returns to the pit, with fresh dents on the sides of the rear quarter panels. From the inside.

Nope, never had that happen.

#888-Hong Kong Cavaliers Benz S500: formerly known as OMG Racing #140...
Judges Choice and Regional Award winner! Chuckwalla '12, Buttonwillow '13, BFE GP '15, Miller '14 & '15, Sonoma '13,'14,'15,'17, '18. Inde '16,'17,'18. Other foolishness: Finisher of the inaugural Lemons Rally, in the black Jag.... and IOE in the Super Snipe back in '12.

Re: 2019 Rules are out!

Greg S wrote:
Guildenstern wrote:
Greg S wrote:

Far be it from me to make our racing more expensive or complicated but, after racing at Road Atlanta in the monsoon like conditions I am going to wire up a set of tail lights and install some crappy front lights as well in my upcoming build.

Racing down the straight at over 105 MPH in the pouring rain I could not see anything with the amount of mist being generated. A few cars had lights, they were a god send. You could make out them in your mirrors and see them up ahead.

It took a lot of faith in our fellow drivers to stay in the throttle down that straight with terrible visibility. Great driving this last weekend.

If you have brake lights - tail lights wouldn't be very hard. I know I'll light a flame war but I think we should be putting some lights on our cars.

Greg

To be clear, the cheapest option would be to simply not go out on the track at 105 mph in a monsoon.

We’re  amateurs racing for nickles, discretion is the better part of stupidity.

Well all the cars that made it on track and raced in those conditions put on our big boy pants and made it work. There was very little contact and empty space in the penalty box. Kudos to all the drivers and teams we raced with. We're talking Lemons here - good decisions are not our specialty.

Lights would make it safer.

I’m not convinced more rules to overcome macho stupidity is the way to go. Don’t let your Big Boy pants become your burial pants. Plenty of fatal accidents in non-mandatory operations start with “we never had a problem doing it before”

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)

Re: 2019 Rules are out!

gus wrote:
VKZ24 wrote:

I'm just glad to see the silly rule regarding taping over lights and mirrors has finally been eliminated.

That and the removal of the jack and jack stands requirement at tech are hands down the best parts of these new rules

Seriously, if your car is so sketchy that the judges need to get under it to make sure it’s safe, you can afford the time to run go get a jack and jack stand if/when it comes up and get back to the back of the line.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)

Re: 2019 Rules are out!

Guildenstern wrote:
gus wrote:
VKZ24 wrote:

I'm just glad to see the silly rule regarding taping over lights and mirrors has finally been eliminated.

That and the removal of the jack and jack stands requirement at tech are hands down the best parts of these new rules

Seriously, if your car is so sketchy that the judges need to get under it to make sure it’s safe, you can afford the time to run go get a jack and jack stand if/when it comes up and get back to the back of the line.

Interesting. I thought it was about showing that the TEAM was competent enough to raise a car off the ground safely. If tech wanted to inspect further, I'd think they can ask pretty much any team in the paddock for the loan of one... Although your explanation probably makes sense. You wouldn't believe how badly some cars are put together: the guy who ran up with a frantic look in his eye, around 2 pm Saturday, and yelled "Anybody got any nails?" Comes to mind. Don't know what he was going to put together with them. Besides, I didn't bring any nails.

#888-Hong Kong Cavaliers Benz S500: formerly known as OMG Racing #140...
Judges Choice and Regional Award winner! Chuckwalla '12, Buttonwillow '13, BFE GP '15, Miller '14 & '15, Sonoma '13,'14,'15,'17, '18. Inde '16,'17,'18. Other foolishness: Finisher of the inaugural Lemons Rally, in the black Jag.... and IOE in the Super Snipe back in '12.

Re: 2019 Rules are out!

Early on there were some "creative" ways people would route exhaust and bolt through holes in the floors, so it was for speeding up Tech. Most people are pretty good about not screwing that up, plus the stuff you see from the top of the car tells you if they have their heads together enough to feel confident about the state of the underside.

I've never been asked to jack the car up, so it was always just another heavy thing to move in and out of the trunk.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)

Re: 2019 Rules are out!

Also important to note that they've officially codified needing to have your neck restraint inspected and recertified at the manufacturer's recommended interval. Which makes sense given the requirement for SFI or FIA certification. Same with fire systems, which is obvious.

Also same for fuel cells, which I wasn't expecting. I wonder how that's going to work for fuel cells that have no official certification.

Command Pilot/Flight Director, Escape Velocity Racing
Index of Effluency, Heroic Fix, Class C Trophy, now hopelessly gunning for Class B.
Currently 1-2 vs. Team Fairlylame in the Class of 1964 Championships

Re: 2019 Rules are out!

SpaceFrank wrote:

Also important to note that they've officially codified needing to have your neck restraint inspected and recertified at the manufacturer's recommended interval. Which makes sense given the requirement for SFI or FIA certification. Same with fire systems, which is obvious.

Also same for fuel cells, which I wasn't expecting. I wonder how that's going to work for fuel cells that have no official certification.

Well, I mean if it’s not certified, and the manufacturer has no inspection reccomendations. I guess you have complied.

Although I’d wager most have some kind of “hey do this every whenever” somewhere in their instructions. Basically it makes it all YOUR fault if you don’t do it.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)

Re: 2019 Rules are out!

Guildenstern wrote:
Greg S wrote:
Guildenstern wrote:

To be clear, the cheapest option would be to simply not go out on the track at 105 mph in a monsoon.

We’re  amateurs racing for nickles, discretion is the better part of stupidity.

Well all the cars that made it on track and raced in those conditions put on our big boy pants and made it work. There was very little contact and empty space in the penalty box. Kudos to all the drivers and teams we raced with. We're talking Lemons here - good decisions are not our specialty.

Lights would make it safer.

I’m not convinced more rules to overcome macho stupidity is the way to go. Don’t let your Big Boy pants become your burial pants. Plenty of fatal accidents in non-mandatory operations start with “we never had a problem doing it before”

Macho stupidity? That's what racing in the rain is?  Seriously? Well I guess 104 entries, countless drivers, the organizers, corner workers and everyone else at Road Atlanta might just disagree with your choice of words.

You have a nice day.

1987 Alfa Milano (Bellissima since 2008), Racing since 2008 Stafford Springs,  2nd overall 2011 NJMP, 4th at NHMS 2011, 2nd at Summit 2011, Into the wall hard at Stafford Springs 2011, 2nd at Monticello 2013, 3rd at NHMS 2013, 2nd at NHMS 2016. 2nd at NJMP 2018

25,000 racing miles in 32 races in 10 years. Yes its the same motor. Tell me again how Alfas suck? Update: Big moneyshift = new motor

Re: 2019 Rules are out!

So as you said, you couldn’t see cars in front of you that didn’t have lights, couldnt see cars in your mirrors that didn’t have lights, but were going 105 miles per hour because you “put your big boy pants on”

No that sounds reasoned and perfectly risk managed, not macho at all.

That or hyperbolic bragging.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)

Re: 2019 Rules are out!

Guildenstern wrote:

So as you said, you couldn’t see cars in front of you that didn’t have lights, couldnt see cars in your mirrors that didn’t have lights, but were going 105 miles per hour because you “put your big boy pants on”

No that sounds reasoned and perfectly risk managed, not macho at all.

That or hyperbolic bragging.

Dude, chill. We race rain or shine, if you personally don't feel comfortable, sit it out. But adding a suggestion that cars should have a light front and rear is not an unreasonable thing. Hell I see so many cars with barely visible brake lights that I would not object to more lighting rules.

A simple small light front and rear would help a lot in the rain. Doesn't have to be in the rules, just something to do to be safer. CT was the same way this year on sunday, visibility was greatly reduced in the heavy rain, and yes, the whole field slowed down in general, but it was still less safe than it would have been with a simple marker light on each car.

20 Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Turbo Dodge Powered E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: 2019 Rules are out!

TheEngineer wrote:

Hell I see so many cars with barely visible brake lights that I would not object to more lighting rules.

Agreed.  I'm still amazed how many teams will do the BARE MINIMUM on every check list item.  Since the rules state you must have one working brake light, I swear some teams will use a single LED, and by single I mean a single diode, not an LED array!  I've also seen teams use LED marker lights as brake lights, and they are not nearly bright enough to perform that function.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: 2019 Rules are out!

TheEngineer wrote:
Guildenstern wrote:

So as you said, you couldn’t see cars in front of you that didn’t have lights, couldnt see cars in your mirrors that didn’t have lights, but were going 105 miles per hour because you “put your big boy pants on”

No that sounds reasoned and perfectly risk managed, not macho at all.

That or hyperbolic bragging.

Dude, chill. We race rain or shine, if you personally don't feel comfortable, sit it out. But adding a suggestion that cars should have a light front and rear is not an unreasonable thing. Hell I see so many cars with barely visible brake lights that I would not object to more lighting rules.

A simple small light front and rear would help a lot in the rain. Doesn't have to be in the rules, just something to do to be safer. CT was the same way this year on sunday, visibility was greatly reduced in the heavy rain, and yes, the whole field slowed down in general, but it was still less safe than it would have been with a simple marker light on each car.

I mean, I don’t think a rain light is a bad idea, but a bloated rule book is. The rules as they exist now put the final decicion on acceptable risk to the team and the driver. And I think that’s reasonable. If someone doesn’t like that they can’t see other cars in the rain, then they have to make the call on what to do themselves. There’s no need to keep pushing the rules to support and enforce higher and higher performance. It’s crap cars for nickle racing. The easier solution is always in 90 percent of instances where a convenience rule comes up is just slowing down or taking an hour off the track to either polish your windscreen or re-up your Rain-X.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)

Re: 2019 Rules are out!

VKZ24 wrote:
TheEngineer wrote:

Hell I see so many cars with barely visible brake lights that I would not object to more lighting rules.

Agreed.  I'm still amazed how many teams will do the BARE MINIMUM on every check list item.  Since the rules state you must have one working brake light, I swear some teams will use a single LED, and by single I mean a single diode, not an LED array!  I've also seen teams use LED marker lights as brake lights, and they are not nearly bright enough to perform that function.

When you see that you need to tell the Judges. They can bring the car in to check and recalibrate their tech eyeballs for aceptable brightness. Most of them rarely race and tend to be about a foot from the brake lights when they check them. Feedback is what they need to make the right call in tech. Rules with Lumen figures and candle powers aren’t needed, because then the judges and the teams will have to have light meters on them.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)

Re: 2019 Rules are out!

My new build will have a switchable set of tail lights and some yellow / amber lights up front. We'll use them in the rain and they will be there if we decide to do another 24 hour Race like the Nelson Ledges.

I'll be using a new FIA compliant fire system as well, my firecharger aqueous won't due anymore. All the systems you can fill yourself are no longer compliant. I might replace the bladder in the fuel cell as well, I need to check the date. Five years is what most sanctioning bodies permit on the cell bladders but the dates are always sealed up under the covers PITA to see.

Other than that, I guess I'll tap out of this thread. See you all at NJMP or if I get really lucky PittRace.

Greg

1987 Alfa Milano (Bellissima since 2008), Racing since 2008 Stafford Springs,  2nd overall 2011 NJMP, 4th at NHMS 2011, 2nd at Summit 2011, Into the wall hard at Stafford Springs 2011, 2nd at Monticello 2013, 3rd at NHMS 2013, 2nd at NHMS 2016. 2nd at NJMP 2018

25,000 racing miles in 32 races in 10 years. Yes its the same motor. Tell me again how Alfas suck? Update: Big moneyshift = new motor

Re: 2019 Rules are out!

I don't get the complaint about the back straight at Atlanta. I just figured if there was mist, there was probably a car! It worked fine for me all race.  My complaint was that I couldn't see the corner workers in all the mist, so I had no idea if I was passing under yellow. Especially the guy working turn 10 on Sunday. He just stayed in his car and was late to flag, then would wave it from down the fence where you couldn't see him! We went three wide through there one time only to find a car turned around. I was ready to go punch that guy by the time I got out.

Re: 2019 Rules are out!

VanillaHaze wrote:

I don't get the complaint about the back straight at Atlanta. I just figured if there was mist, there was probably a car! It worked fine for me all race.  My complaint was that I couldn't see the corner workers in all the mist, so I had no idea if I was passing under yellow. Especially the guy working turn 10 on Sunday. He just stayed in his car and was late to flag, then would wave it from down the fence where you couldn't see him! We went three wide through there one time only to find a car turned around. I was ready to go punch that guy by the time I got out.

Yea we had one of those at turn 2 this fall at gingerman. And it was nice out. Just couldn’t be bothered I guess.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)

Re: 2019 Rules are out!

VanillaHaze wrote:

I don't get the complaint about the back straight at Atlanta. I just figured if there was mist, there was probably a car! It worked fine for me all race.  My complaint was that I couldn't see the corner workers in all the mist, so I had no idea if I was passing under yellow. Especially the guy working turn 10 on Sunday. He just stayed in his car and was late to flag, then would wave it from down the fence where you couldn't see him! We went three wide through there one time only to find a car turned around. I was ready to go punch that guy by the time I got out.

On Saturday AM someone wound up in the gravel at 10. The only flag we could see was shown there. The recovery truck was there really quickly and was pulling him out. What must have been a rookie decided that he couldn't pass the recovery truck and just stopped on track, the drivers behind that car were blocked and seemed to be afraid to pass the car & scene.

A group of (5-8) cars that I was in cleared the hill at 9 and came up on the scene driving pretty quick into the mess and had to haul down quick due to the all the crawling or stopped cars on the downhill section before the braking zone.  It was nerve racking thinking of all the cars behind us plowing into us. As I drove forward I was using my left foot to flash the brake lights hoping that the cars behind could see them.

WRT the mist, I really want to see the cars up in front or their taillights in case someone gets sideways before the braking zone. The differential speeds on that straight were massive. If you watch the Hong Norrth Video it give you an idea of what I'm talking about. Its no excuse but I don't envy those corners workers in that cold ass driving rain for 8 plus hours.

But there was a lot of limp wristed half ass flag handling.

1987 Alfa Milano (Bellissima since 2008), Racing since 2008 Stafford Springs,  2nd overall 2011 NJMP, 4th at NHMS 2011, 2nd at Summit 2011, Into the wall hard at Stafford Springs 2011, 2nd at Monticello 2013, 3rd at NHMS 2013, 2nd at NHMS 2016. 2nd at NJMP 2018

25,000 racing miles in 32 races in 10 years. Yes its the same motor. Tell me again how Alfas suck? Update: Big moneyshift = new motor

Re: 2019 Rules are out!

With all due respect to all those involved, this thread appears to veered far astray from the original subject.  Maybe start a new thread elsewhere?

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita" 
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)
1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless)
1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites) (Sold -> Houston.  Gone and forgotten)

Re: 2019 Rules are out!

Guildenstern wrote:

Rules with Lumen figures and candle powers aren’t needed, because then the judges and the teams will have to have light meters on them.

Hey, I have an Eppley Pyrheliometer and I'm not afraid to use it!

Admittedly I don't know how to use it, but I'm not afraid to.

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP