Topic: Crossover car - ChumpCar & Lemons

Greetings All,
First time poster, long time listener. Reasonable guidance appreciated. Sarcasm tolerated.  :-)

After several years of sprint racing with SCCA, I'd like to gather up some friends and try out endurance racing.
I'd like to have access to as many Midwest region events as possible, so running with one particular series isn't important at this point.

The rules between ChumpCar, sorry can't call it ChampCar, and Lemons seem quite different.
Because of the structure of the ChumpCar rules, they will be my primary focus in building the car.

I'm wondering if there are any "Gotchas" when it comes to bringing a ChumpCar into Lemons.
Anyone have experience here?

As an example, I noticed that ChumpCar allows 1.5" x 0.095" roll cage tubing for cars under 2,500 lbs.
Lemons doesn't have a car weight spec this low, so tube sizes are limited to either 1.5" x 0.120" or 1.75" x 0.095.

I'm sure our car will be less than 2,500 lbs.

Any other guidance would be great.
Thanks
Chris

Re: Crossover car - ChumpCar & Lemons

1-1/2"x.120 has been accepted  but NOT 1-1/2" x.095

There are no exceptions for lighter cars in Lemons

1-3/4" x .095 is slightly lighter than 1-1/2" x .120



Cars cross back and forth all the time. Kill switch location seems to be thing I've seen discussed the most.

Re: Crossover car - ChumpCar & Lemons

The rulesets are difficult to compare since classing in one is subjective and in the other requires an actuary.  Again a generalization would be that the Lemons safety rules are a bit stricter but Chump requires cage nets.  If you are concerned with the weight penalty of not being able to run .095 tubing, you can go on a diet or find somewhere else to lose the weight.  Actually if .095 is a weight consideration for competitive reasons, I'm not sure Lemons is the right place to be.  They race here but not to the point where they will hip check their mother to win.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita" 
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)
1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless)
1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites) (Sold -> Houston.  Gone and forgotten)

Re: Crossover car - ChumpCar & Lemons

Usually a car built to the (maximum) chump rules is hella cheaty in Lemons.  You have an unlimited budget to rebuild engine/trans/diff, install all new shocks, springs, etc. with no penalty.  You may get away with it in Lemons, you may not.  It's a chance you'll have to take.

Conversely, many Lemons cars are EC cars in Chump

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5 (edited by bilcoh 2018-12-14 11:25 AM)

Re: Crossover car - ChumpCar & Lemons

Here's a weird perspective from someone who hasn't yet raced Lemons, but plans to, and was expecting to do crossover between Lemons and Lucky Dog, which is the most prominent series here in the the Pacific NW. 

We bought a previously raced Lemons car that would, I believe pass tech.  While many Lemons safety rules seem stricter than others, turns out the roll cage isn't one of them.  The car we bought has a seamed steel cage, and Lucky Dog requires DOM or better.  They also require a dash bar, which Lemons doesn't.  I haven't checked ChumpCar rules to verify what they allow for cage materials.

If you're building a car, all these are easily solved with some planning.  BUT.....the other thing we learned was that our $500 Lemons car really wasn't up to being anything but an also ran in Lucky Dog, and I'd guess it would be the same for ChumpCar.  So I'd think it's that $500 rule in Lemons that would be most challenging to comply with if you want to build a car that can race at the back of the pack in Chump.

And take all this with a pound of salt.  It's not based on much actual racing at all, just what I've learned in the last few months after jumping into the pool.

Good luck,

Dave

Edited:  Took me so long to type this while Thomas Crapper said it with way fewer words.

Re: Crossover car - ChumpCar & Lemons

cheseroo wrote:

The rulesets are difficult to compare since classing in one is subjective and in the other requires an actuary.  Again a generalization would be that the Lemons safety rules are a bit stricter but Chump requires cage nets.  If you are concerned with the weight penalty of not being able to run .095 tubing, you can go on a diet or find somewhere else to lose the weight.  Actually if .095 is a weight consideration for competitive reasons, I'm not sure Lemons is the right place to be.  They race here but not to the point where they will hip check their mother to win.

On 40' of DOM the weights are:
1.5 x .095 = 57lbs
1.5 x .120 = 70.4lbs
1.75 x .095 = 67.2lbs

1.75 x .095 is about 1.4x stronger than 1.5 x.095 for a 10 lb weight penalty on a 40' cage build.

1.75 x .095 is about 1.1x stronger than 1.5 x.120 for a 4 lb weight savings on a 40' cage build.

To me, it seems like a no brainer - 1.75 x .095 FTW.

Buy 2.5lb lighter wheels and the weight penalty is paid for, AND you save all that rotational mass.

Capt. Delinquent Racing
TRUMPACO XR4Ti
The One & Only Taurus V8 SHO #31(now moved on to another OG Delinquent)
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Re: Crossover car - ChumpCar & Lemons

cheseroo wrote:

They race here but not to the point where they will hip check their mother just to gain a position.

FTFY.  I think that should be Chump's new tagline "If you'd hip check your own mother to gain a position, you should come race with us!".

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: Crossover car - ChumpCar & Lemons

As a owner that has done both series with the same car, everything mentioned is accurate, many Lemons cars are going to be EC in champ but do not think for a moment a "A" class lemon will not be lap time competitive in chump.

The biggest thing we were scrutinized on was, roll cage spreader mount plate size, Lemons has strict criteria, get that part right and all is well for any other series.

Homestead Chump 5th-Sebring 6th-PBIR Lemons 9th - Charlotte Chump  CrashnBurn 9th
Sebring 6th again -NOLA Chump 1st -PBIR Chump Trans Fail 16th
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Daytona 13th - Charlotte 9th - Sebring 2nd-Charlotte 25th broken brakes - Road Atlanta 14 10th-Daytona 14  58th- Humid TT 19th Judges' Choice!

Re: Crossover car - ChumpCar & Lemons

Basically take a sheet of paper, draw a line down the middle. Bullit point all the Lemons setup rules on one side and BumpCar on the other. Then pick out the more restrictive of both rules and build to that.

Also just always do a 1.75 DOM no matter what. When your sideways looking at a 1971 road barge pointed at you in your driver side window, you won’t wish you saved a couple pounds and a couple bucks.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata.

Re: Crossover car - ChumpCar & Lemons

We have build 2 cars to run both groups and all was make the class B in  both but  A class on a bad day with Lemon in Tech!!
The cage as other said use the 1.75 tube  you got to lay out both rule book on the table and go back and forth many time I found you mist stuff.
John is a fare guy just got to be safe. one thing is the dig bar from drivers head to pass floor in Lemon it needs to be one piece !!! in Chump it can be made in 2 ! In Chump if you are trying to keep it under the 500 point mark you need to do a lot of home work .

Re: Crossover car - ChumpCar & Lemons

We've raced both. Our Lemons spec cage was fine with Chump, but we had to add another kill switch to make Chump happy.

A few other things, fire suppression (don't remember if that was for Chump or WRL, but it's now mandatory for Lemons anyway), dash bar, and window net, but Lemons was the strictest about the cage. They also made us tape over the Chump logo on our door numbers.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

Re: Crossover car - ChumpCar & Lemons

rmcdaniels wrote:

They also made us tape over the Chump logo on our door numbers.

...and the reason for that isn't branding, it's because when only some cars have the Chump number boards, they've had issues with corner workers who need new glasses mistaking the rectangular Chump logo for a leading "1" on the number and calling in the wrong car number. So a car with Chump-logoed 30 gets a black flag pointed at them for a mistake made by car 130, or vice versa.

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55 races and counting.

Re: Crossover car - ChumpCar & Lemons

And then people tape it up with black tape, and it looks like a 1 anyways.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata.

Re: Crossover car - ChumpCar & Lemons

Thank you All, I appreciate your comments.
Many good points and guidance, the solution seems pretty obvious now  -->   Meet all target sanctioning body requirements.

Racing at my home track, Gingerman, out of convenience, is the primary goal.
Just to keep the costs down, sort out the car and learn what's important for endurance events.

I think the folks I know are more into the Chump approach versus Lemons, but with 2 annual events at Gingerman, we need to be involved.

Getting the chassis caged is first and most important.
With a couple taller drivers, the smaller diameter tube has some appeal for head room, but I know we can get it done with the 1.75", there's just less room for error when placing the driver's side hoop and seat.

Thanks again, I'll study more and document those key points for the build plan.
Best,
Chris

Re: Crossover car - ChumpCar & Lemons

Potentially helpful to set the seat before cage work, especially if you are that worried about tall drivers. When you have seating position dialed in then you can worry about head room and doing an exo-cage type thing. I’m 6’5” and I was able to build in plenty of head room in my car.  Another consideration that I didn’t see mentioned is using 1.75x0.120 DOM. Obviously another few lbs and overkill, but it’s easier to weld thicker material without having to worry about burn-through on 0.095.

TriLamb Motorsports ‘87 528e

Re: Crossover car - ChumpCar & Lemons

Just to second what this guy said....

Also just always do a 1.75 DOM no matter what. When your sideways looking at a 1971 road barge pointed at you in your driver side window, you won’t wish you saved a couple pounds and a couple bucks......

29+x Loser.....You'd think I would learn......
5x I.O.E  Winner   1 Heroic Fix Winner   1 Org Choice Winner
2x  I Got Screwed Winner    1 Class C Winner
(Still a Class B driver in a Class A car)

Re: Crossover car - ChumpCar & Lemons

BigBird wrote:

Just to second what this guy said....

Also just always do a 1.75 DOM no matter what. When your sideways looking at a 1971 road barge pointed at you in your driver side window, you won’t wish you saved a couple pounds and a couple bucks......

No, you will be thinking why did I decide to go racing with a bunch of idiots with $500 cars.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rRqRKC0nG8

Re: Crossover car - ChumpCar & Lemons

So I have to ask the obvious question...why do you think you/your people are more Chump than Lemons?  Not a judgement a curiosity.  I applaud you figuring something like this out up front as it will reduce team friction a bit if goals are clear up front.

For instance, my team is squarely in the Lemons camp because we do love an IoE build but we discovered this AFTER a hardcore Class B fight we realized was sucking the fun out of the weekends.  Are we slow...not so much but the cars started that way.  Do we have a lot more fun when we just go to the track to have fun and beat on the cars...yep.  Are we to the level that a driver has to stay out even when he needs to pee because we are eating lunch and no one is suited up...nope.

So there tend to be three basic mindsets/team dynamics in Lemons with infinite variations on each:

In it to win it...we are here to race but hopefully not dicks about it.
Competitive but not at the expense of the other fun aspects of the weekend
We are here to drive a car on a racetrack but not at the expense of all the other fun.

My team falls halfway in between the second two.  Do we have a problem with guys at the pointy end of the spear...nope.  Will we make fun of them cause they are missing out on the other stuff...yep.  Is it mean-spirited...not at all.  Do those Johny RealRacers (TM) look down on us...a few do but not most.

Lemons is community that races.  If you are not into that part of the race, you won't enjoy it as much no matter which category you fit into.  I have no idea if Chump offers the same so you will have to draw you own conclusions.

Re: Crossover car - ChumpCar & Lemons

nimblemotorsports wrote:
BigBird wrote:

Just to second what this guy said....

Also just always do a 1.75 DOM no matter what. When your sideways looking at a 1971 road barge pointed at you in your driver side window, you won’t wish you saved a couple pounds and a couple bucks......

No, you will be thinking why did I decide to go racing with a bunch of idiots with $500 cars.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rRqRKC0nG8

We already know the answer to that

Because it’s cool.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata.

Re: Crossover car - ChumpCar & Lemons

The car I'm buying "We Are Not Really From Iran", was a b class winner in Lemons, It also ran in chump but was not very competitive.

That's why I'm buying it.

The current opner races more chump and Lemons, and wants to be competitive there.

Re: Crossover car - ChumpCar & Lemons

Fellow Midwest team here - We ran 4 Lemons races over the last 2 years and then ran our first Champcar race at Road America in October. I built the car knowing we might run both series. Here's what I did and we've never had a tech issue in either series.

Cage built to Lemons standards, which are a tad stricter than champ.  Bought a kit from roll cage components and had it installed by a pro.

Champ requires a kill switch in the center dash or console, so we mounted ours there and connected a cable that runs over to the passenger window area so it can be pulled by a corner worker without them having to reach into the car.

To get ready for the Champ race we had to add a window net and a fire suppression system (now also required in Lemons ) - make sure your fire suppression system meets the minimum for whichever series is more strict (I think its Lemons). We also had to remove some theme-related spray-foam insulation to comply with Champ's "no 3D decorations" rule.  Last but not least, to avoid massive points penalties we had to swap out the crappy adjustable shocks that were on the car when we got it with what ended up being a far better set of non-adjustable shocks that met champ's "2X" rule.

If you're running the OEM fuel system note that Lemons requires it to be 100% stock - vents, filler, etc., whereas champ allows you some modification. If you're running a cell take a very close look at the two sets of rules (we run OEM tank so I don't have any experience there).

Seat back braces are another area where there may be some discrepancies (another item we don't have).

That's about all I can think of on the tech side.

As far as classing goes, my suggestion is to pay most attention to the items that cost points in champ while keeping the spirit of Lemons in mind. We had done some stuff that was totally fine in Lemons (custom brackets made from "free" scrap to hold the OEM fan in place after we removed the AC condenser) that were going to cost us points in champcar and had to be removed or redone. That said, if we'd shown up at our first Lemons race with our shiny new non-adjustable Bilsteins we might have been tagged with some laps. In reality, once the Lemons judges are familiar with your car the level of scrutiny goes down and all those poly bushings you get for zero points in champ aren't an issue in Lemons, either.

Electric Mayhem Racing

Re: Crossover car - ChumpCar & Lemons

mgavro wrote:

Fellow Midwest team here - We ran 4 Lemons races over the last 2 years and then ran our first Champcar race at Road America in October. I built the car knowing we might run both series. Here's what I did and we've never had a tech issue in either series.

Cage built to Lemons standards, which are a tad stricter than champ.  Bought a kit from roll cage components and had it installed by a pro.

Champ requires a kill switch in the center dash or console, so we mounted ours there and connected a cable that runs over to the passenger window area so it can be pulled by a corner worker without them having to reach into the car.

To get ready for the Champ race we had to add a window net and a fire suppression system (now also required in Lemons ) - make sure your fire suppression system meets the minimum for whichever series is more strict (I think its Lemons). We also had to remove some theme-related spray-foam insulation to comply with Champ's "no 3D decorations" rule.  Last but not least, to avoid massive points penalties we had to swap out the crappy adjustable shocks that were on the car when we got it with what ended up being a far better set of non-adjustable shocks that met champ's "2X" rule.

If you're running the OEM fuel system note that Lemons requires it to be 100% stock - vents, filler, etc., whereas champ allows you some modification. If you're running a cell take a very close look at the two sets of rules (we run OEM tank so I don't have any experience there).

Seat back braces are another area where there may be some discrepancies (another item we don't have).

That's about all I can think of on the tech side.

As far as classing goes, my suggestion is to pay most attention to the items that cost points in champ while keeping the spirit of Lemons in mind. We had done some stuff that was totally fine in Lemons (custom brackets made from "free" scrap to hold the OEM fan in place after we removed the AC condenser) that were going to cost us points in champcar and had to be removed or redone. That said, if we'd shown up at our first Lemons race with our shiny new non-adjustable Bilsteins we might have been tagged with some laps. In reality, once the Lemons judges are familiar with your car the level of scrutiny goes down and all those poly bushings you get for zero points in champ aren't an issue in Lemons, either.

Some good things to check out here, thanks !!

23

Re: Crossover car - ChumpCar & Lemons

mgavro wrote:

Champ requires a kill switch in the center dash or console, so we mounted ours there and connected a cable that runs over to the passenger window area so it can be pulled by a corner worker without them having to reach into the car.

We did the same thing - we re-purposed the car's original hood release cable and mounted the lever just inside the driver's window. We usually get a puzzled look at tech, but once we show them that it can actuate the kill switch they have no problem with it.

We Audi Be Faster
'85 Audi Coupe G(in &) T(onic)

Re: Crossover car - ChumpCar & Lemons

Hmmm, I removed a rear 'folding seatback' latching mechanism, ....

Re: Crossover car - ChumpCar & Lemons

citterly wrote:

Greetings All,
First time poster, long time listener. Reasonable guidance appreciated. Sarcasm tolerated.  :-)

After several years of sprint racing with SCCA, I'd like to gather up some friends and try out endurance racing.
I'd like to have access to as many Midwest region events as possible, so running with one particular series isn't important at this point.

The rules between ChumpCar, sorry can't call it ChampCar, and Lemons seem quite different.
Because of the structure of the ChumpCar rules, they will be my primary focus in building the car.

I'm wondering if there are any "Gotchas" when it comes to bringing a ChumpCar into Lemons.
Anyone have experience here?

As an example, I noticed that ChumpCar allows 1.5" x 0.095" roll cage tubing for cars under 2,500 lbs.
Lemons doesn't have a car weight spec this low, so tube sizes are limited to either 1.5" x 0.120" or 1.75" x 0.095.

I'm sure our car will be less than 2,500 lbs.

Any other guidance would be great.
Thanks
Chris

I can tell you from racing both. if you are going to build a completive Champcar (yeah I know terrible name change) you ill not have a legal Lemons car. We are mid-pack in Champ and can fly around the Lemons track. The 2 leagues are miles apart in builds. As far as "tech goes" pretty close but Champs does not go by cash money spent, they go by "points" and the "points" have been dropping every year and are almost nonexistent now. Our car was once a 483 "point" car, now we are at 335. Lemons also has way more cars on the track, with a ton of different speeds. You need to be really carful in traffic. In Champcar, pretty much everybody is fast. And the drivers aren’t afraid to go 3 wide or push their way thru. Both are fun, just different. You will spend much less on a Lemons car. We are not making changes for Champ, if we do it will be something easy so we can switch back to Lemons so we can stay under the $500 limit.

"get up and get your grandma outta here"