Topic: Electric Car Rules

3.L.2 Pikes Peak is Smarter Than Us. All full-EV vehicles must meet all PPIHC safety rules for electric cars. See PPIHC 2018 Rule Book, effective 1 November 2017, section 126.

126.2 – Audio
126.2.1 – All electric powered entries must be fitted with an audio warning
system that produces a constant audio warning at a minimum of 120 decibels as
measured three feet from the vehicle. Audio warning systems must be able to be
activated only from outside the vehicle. NO EXCEPTIONS.

Ohh you just know this is going to be amazing!

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata.

Re: Electric Car Rules

It says something about us that 126.2.1 is the most exciting part of this announcement.

I'm adding this sound to the Electrica :  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFqHyCoypfM

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

3 (edited by BigPappy 2019-03-02 02:19 PM)

Re: Electric Car Rules

Ummm..  our limit was 92db??- looks like rules need some dialing in (unless this was all intended as a joke).

I'm a bit of a tehnofobe so consider the source of the following:

The electric car announcement actually bummed me out.   

I was bummed out to see the first electric overall win would be 50k prize money (albeit in nickels).   I know with current technology it's a "next to impossible" feat to get an overall win without spending more than the 50k to begin with, but what makes Lemons fun is the LACK of money....   When figures like 50k start to get thrown around things tend to get more serious.  I like the idea of coaxing old junk to work- not adapting new, expensive stuff.   I don't want someone to want to kill me for passing or holding them up because they think I cost them $50k. 

Also just a general concern about safety- it seems that once an impact damages a battery the fire can't really be put out since it starts a chain reaction in all the cells.   As I said- I'm about as far from an expert as there is on EV's, but I've read a number of articles of a Tesla burning for days after an incident as new cells explode / catch fire.   It would suck to have a race cancelled or someone get injured to an inferno.   

I know everyone says EV's are the future, but it's just not for me yet- and definitely not for me in Lemons.   I just hope that this doesn't result in a couple really serious teams having a negative impact on the culture of fun.   

Unless this was all a joke- in which case I'm the one who's way too serious about Lemons!

Team Orca- 3700 lbs of fury!

Re: Electric Car Rules

BigPappy wrote:

Also just a general concern about safety- it seems that once an impact damages a battery the fire can't really be put out since it starts a chain reaction in all the cells.   As I said- I'm about as far from an expert as there is on EV's, but I've read a number of articles of a Tesla burning for days after an incident as new cells explode / catch fire.   It would suck to have a race cancelled or someone get injured to an inferno.

The way to permanently extinguish a lithium battery fire is to use lots of water. Keep adding cold water until the battery is stays at ambient temperature throughout.

Lemons EVs already have an advantage over production EVs in that a team wanting swappable packs will probably have to mount the pack inside the car, and probably within the confines of the rollcage, which production EVs don't have.

Maybe there needs to be an EV-specific addendum to the rollcage section of the rules, mandating additional structure to prevent battery crush during incidents.

Re: Electric Car Rules

That all gets covered by the “don’t even think about starting without contacting Pagel” part of the rules. 

And believe me, if someone blocking a turn kills someones chance to win $50k, they wern’t really close enough to win. Laps not tenths.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata.

Re: Electric Car Rules

BigPappy wrote:

Ummm..  our limit was 92db??- looks like rules need some dialing in (unless this was all intended as a joke).


It's 92dB at 50 feet. The Pikes Peak rule is 120dB at 3 Feet.

Using the Inverse Square law, you end up with 120dB at 3 Feet being roughly 95 dB at 50 feet. So with atmospheric effects and all it puts you right in the ball park.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata.

Re: Electric Car Rules

Bring back one of the best penalties of all:

https://jalopnik.com/safety-good-sanity … wa-5063539

8 (edited by gus 2019-03-03 04:27 PM)

Re: Electric Car Rules

BigPappy wrote:

Also just a general concern about safety- it seems that once an impact damages a battery the fire can't really be put out since it starts a chain reaction in all the cells.   As I said- I'm about as far from an expert as there is on EV's, but I've read a number of articles of a Tesla burning for days after an incident as new cells explode / catch fire.   It would suck to have a race cancelled or someone get injured to an inferno.

EV battery packs need good anti-propagation design and testing, doubly so for a race EV pack that will see impacts. Teslas definitely have this design in mind, which is why you hear about packs getting punctured and not exploding. It's true some packs will cook-off for days, but that's actually by design, kind of. A propagation event is a thermal-runaway, which manifests as a really huge release of energy/heat, aka big explosion.
Propagation testing is really expensive though, so I doubt any Lemons teams would be designing their own packs/modules from cells up, with race impact anti-propagation in mind. More likely is that people find ways to re-use existing EV pack modules.

9 (edited by Guildenstern 2019-03-03 04:58 PM)

Re: Electric Car Rules

There’s nothing in either the Lemons or refered Pikes Peak rules that say you have to have any consumer equipment level safety systems in the cars. All you need is the ability to kill power and extinguish the fire.

Like everything in racing, it’s all disposable as long as the driver can GTFO.

Either no plan will pass muster with HQ in the pre building stages. Or there will be like two ringer teams from some startup just running their own testbed race if Lemons wants street car levels of Battery safety.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata.

Re: Electric Car Rules

BigPappy wrote:

I was bummed out to see the first electric overall win would be 50k prize money (albeit in nickels).   I know with current technology it's a "next to impossible" feat to get an overall win......

I think this is why there's a $50K prize.

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z

11 (edited by TrenchFoot 2019-03-04 02:51 PM)

Re: Electric Car Rules

I thought about a different route to go with batteries, for about 3 minutes: use giant packs of D cell batteries bought in bulk. No one said the EV has to be rechargeable.

Then I did some math. To get the equivalent of a Tesla 100kWh battery pack, you'd need 8,000 D cell batteries per pack. And a 100kWh battery pack would only last, maybe, 1 hour? At about $.50/ea, D cells would get expensive quick. (8,000 D cells would also weigh 1 ton.)

But high level of environmental impact was actually entertaining to me. For about 3 minutes...

https://www.michiganradio.org/sites/michigan/files/styles/medium/public/battery7.jpg

Low Road Racing:  Mustang II/Sunbird/Spirit AMX

We will not compromise our morals and build anything but a class C car.
"You take the high road, we'll take the low."

Re: Electric Car Rules

BigPappy wrote:

Also just a general concern about safety- it seems that once an impact damages a battery the fire can't really be put out since it starts a chain reaction in all the cells.

Stay away from Tesla's firecrackers and that's not much of a problem. Other car manufacturers take the risk of fire and explosion seriously and design their batteries to avoid it. [ https://youtu.be/Jz37WycW-7E ] How many Leaf, Volt, Bolt, i3, Fusion battery fires have you seen / heard of? None? I've seen many Tesla battery fires.

The 50k prize is just a carrot to get others to try. There have only been two EVs in Lemons history. The first was banned for being unsafe. The second has won multiple awards -- practically everywhere it goes, 'tho Jay did politely ask that we not bring it back if it couldn't go 70mph. (and we've done things to our Chevy Volt batteries that would've caused a tesla module to explode -- deep discharge that boiled the electrolyte.)

Duff Beer Civic (#128) -- 2014 Sebring - Class B (#1 of 7), 2016 Barber - Class B
1981 Jet Electrica 007 [Plymouth Horizon TC3] (#128) -- Mk.1 - Index of Effluency Eco (IOEe) @ 2016 Lemons South Fall, Mk.2 - Judges' Choice @ 2017 'Shine Country Classic, Mk.3 - Index of Effluency @ 2017 Southern Discomfort