• Registered: 2018-07-02
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Topic: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

So I see the million nickel reward to winning an overall race.

You guys think its possible?

For example, I've raced at Gingerman and an overall winner will say do close to 1,000 miles broken up over 2 days.

I would assume there has to be multiple battery packs and make to switch out at driver changes to be competitive.

Its hard enough to get an overall win with everything setup perfect, and then you throw in the EV stuff with a $500 car limit.....

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  • From: Iowa
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Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

All I can say is that $50,000 is very motivating...

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  • Registered: 2009-07-19
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Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

EV price limit is effectively unlimited.

That said, I can not see where it is possible at this point.

But don't let that stop you from trying. Racing an EV in Lemons is really more about the journey than the destination.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

4 Reply by nimblemotorsports (edited by nimblemotorsports 2019-03-01 09:39 PM)

  • From: Sacramento, California
  • Registered: 2012-08-02
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Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

TeamLemon-aid wrote:

All I can say is that $50,000 is very motivating...

Yep, It makes it worth coming up with ways to win, and in ways not expected, like for example to pay other gas cars to lose, at a low-count race, one could make it work...

But the first thing that comes to mind is the 'spank loophole' where you have two identical cars,
one charged and ready to go, the other pits and the charged one goes right back to the track.

And I actually gave Daniels the idea of a two car setup, where one is a hybrid that is charging up a pack as it goes around the track, and they both pit and the charger car dumps its load into the EV for a very fast recharge pitstop..and heck for $50k I can come up with a way to charge a car while it goes around the track...

And other ideas, all probably called 'cheating' by the losers and HQ...

  • Registered: 2009-07-19
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Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

Yep, multiple cars is a good idea, but you still have to beat an E30 with an M30 swap in an endurance race.

When I do the math on this, the limiting factor (other than money) is always energy density. Per joule, batteries weigh 100 times what gasoline weighs. Electricity is about four times as efficient, but you're still at around a 25/1 weight disadvantage to a Miata. Imagine needing to carry 250 gallons of gas to complete a 2 hour driving stint. You can make it work for an autocross car or a Pike's Peak car, but if you have to carry enough energy for hours, then you need to carry a phenomenal amount of weight , enough that you will not be competitive. Alternately you can make a whole lot of pit stops, but then that E30 eats your lunch while you are swapping battery packs.

That's not to say that it won't be done some day, and that you shouldn't try it, BECAUSE YOU SHOULD, but I think those nickels are safe for a while.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

6 Reply by nimblemotorsports (edited by nimblemotorsports 2019-03-01 09:58 PM)

  • From: Sacramento, California
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Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

But do you have to beat an E30, or just the Class C cars?   it doesn't say you have to beat the class A cars.

  • Registered: 2009-07-19
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Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

You must win overall on laps. To me that means beating everyone.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

8 Reply by Guildenstern (edited by Guildenstern 2019-03-01 10:37 PM)

  • From: Cleveland, OH
  • Registered: 2011-09-03
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Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

Yes, it could be done. But once you count the three phase genny trailers, and the LithiumPolymer battery packs (at Least 4) you'll probably be down about say $50,000.

Start looking for totaled Teslas That's probably your best chance at getting the battery technology needed have a chance at overall And even then you'll have to still beat some 5 timer in an E30 or something so think real hard on how you would battery swap. Because Yes the rules say you CAN battery swap.

I'm thinking some kind of fully unbolt-able rear end like the ACCORD-ian or something. BIG BIG bolts and Some Big Big impact guns.

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9 Reply by nimblemotorsports (edited by nimblemotorsports 2019-03-01 11:38 PM)

  • From: Sacramento, California
  • Registered: 2012-08-02
  • Posts: 354

Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

rmcdaniels wrote:

You must win overall on laps. To me that means beating everyone.

The rules says:  The first full-EV racecar to win a Lemons endurance race outright

Winning Class C is winning 'outright', it doesn't say 'overall' or 'everyone',
and btw, you got a lot of 'bribe' power to be put in Class C with $50k at stake,
and really, how can anyone say an EV is not a Class C car?

  • Registered: 2011-10-14
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Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

Guildenstern wrote:

Yes, it could be done. But once you count the three phase genny trailers, and the LithiumPolymer battery packs (at Least 4) you'll probably be down about say $50,000.

Oddly, the rental of large Cat or Ingersoll Gennie is the easy part as long as you have an experience/contacts with construction rental companies.  The multiple charges needed get expensive and...

...at the end of the day the energy density is a thing I could not get over.  I use Gingerman as my example so you need to maintain under a two minute lap and max two 5 minute stops on day one and one on day two to make that happen.  A rough guesstimate is 4 Nissan Leaf packs (lowest common denominator) at about 800# each and all 4 have to be swapped at each of those stops.  Let's think about what that 3200#'s of "fuel" means to handling and acceleration.  Finally, i would not want 3200#'s of  difficult to extinguish material on a track I owned plus another 6400#'s in the paddock.

I really have gone through it in my head and the only thing I can think of is race with baby Jebus hours AND paddock fueling plus small car counts and tons of luck.

  • From: Chandler, AZ
  • Registered: 2011-04-18
  • Posts: 839

Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

nimblemotorsports wrote:
rmcdaniels wrote:

You must win overall on laps. To me that means beating everyone.

The rules says:  The first full-EV racecar to win a Lemons endurance race outright

Winning Class C is winning 'outright', it doesn't say 'overall' or 'everyone',
and btw, you got a lot of 'bribe' power to be put in Class C with $50k at stake,
and really, how can anyone say an EV is not a Class C car?


No, winning outright means winning outright. That means you beat all over cars. Winning Class C is not winning outright.

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12 Reply by MDG

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  • From: Indiana
  • Registered: 2014-05-06
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Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

https://electrek.co/2018/12/23/tesla-ro … tric-race/

Those guys did 745 miles in 24 hours if comments on the internet are accurate about using the "short" track, we run about 2x that average speed at Gingerman. If 25:1 energy density is right, then our little MR2 would need 3600 pounds of batteries to match the 24 gal fuel cell. Then the brakes will melt. And the tires will melt, and you have to somehow swap a 3600 pound battery pack in 2 minutes.

I don't think it's possible with today's battery technology unless you have a tender car racing behind you keeping your EV charged (and bump drafting where the corner stations can't see you of course).

That said, our team is already looking at ways to make an EV car, $50k is a lot of money to go after. A track with hot pit fueling is key so you don't lose 4 laps every time you have to re-battery.

  • From: Sacramento, California
  • Registered: 2012-08-02
  • Posts: 354

Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

Fishah wrote:
nimblemotorsports wrote:
rmcdaniels wrote:

You must win overall on laps. To me that means beating everyone.

The rules says:  The first full-EV racecar to win a Lemons endurance race outright

Winning Class C is winning 'outright', it doesn't say 'overall' or 'everyone',
and btw, you got a lot of 'bribe' power to be put in Class C with $50k at stake,
and really, how can anyone say an EV is not a Class C car?


No, winning outright means winning outright. That means you beat all over cars. Winning Class C is not winning outright.

That being the case, if you have to beat Class A cars, then I would most definitely and completely agree that it is impossible to beat viper V10 powered cars where the $500 rule is broken everywhere 'outright'

  • From: Chandler, AZ
  • Registered: 2011-04-18
  • Posts: 839

Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

Beating the Viper V10 car is the easy part...

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15 Reply by darkostoj (edited by darkostoj 2019-03-02 10:16 AM)

  • Registered: 2018-07-02
  • Posts: 266

Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

Guys...somewhere in a parallel universe there is a Lemons race where the Viper Rolls Comes in 2nd overall as a hybrid charging battery packs and it's British EV companion wins overall.....

I do have hundreds of EV battery modules.....

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  • From: Chandler, AZ
  • Registered: 2011-04-18
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Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

Based on inguinity and resources, if anyone can do this, it's Darko.

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Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

Fishah wrote:

Based on inguinity and resources, if anyone can do this, it's Darko.

Oh yeah....considering I finished 3rd from last the only race I ever did.  lol

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  • From: Elverson, PA
  • Registered: 2017-08-15
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Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

darkostoj wrote:

... I do have hundreds of EV battery modules.....

Frame them into slide-in plug-in modules [battery packs] with a truck-bed unloader to help get them in/out?

  • From: Seattle, WA
  • Registered: 2009-10-28
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Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

nimblemotorsports wrote:

[...for example to pay other gas cars to lose, at a low-count race...

That does seem like the key to an "easy" victory. Build a car that, with the right drivers, can run in roughly the top half of the field at a smaller event, then bribe the remaining faster teams to develop unspecified mechanical issues early enough in the race to let the EV win.

Inde had 35 cars last weekend, so a bribe of $2000 apiece to, say, the top fifteen teams would still leave a pot of $20,000 for the EV team. Buying off the top half-ish of the field last weekend would have meant the difference between beating a car that turned 231 laps vs. beating a car that turned 317 laps, and building a good $20,000 car might be easier than building a great $50,000 car.

It's a fairly modest bribe for each fast team relative to their overall expenses and their lost racing opportunities, but there's a chance they might go along with it just for the humor of messing with Jay.

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  • Registered: 2018-07-02
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Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

mharrell wrote:
nimblemotorsports wrote:

[...for example to pay other gas cars to lose, at a low-count race...

That does seem like the key to an "easy" victory. Build a car that, with the right drivers, can run in roughly the top half of the field at a smaller event, then bribe the remaining faster teams to develop unspecified mechanical issues early enough in the race to let the EV win.

Inde had 35 cars last weekend, so a bribe of $2000 apiece to, say, the top fifteen teams would still leave a pot of $20,000 for the EV team. Buying off the top half-ish of the field last weekend would have meant the difference between beating a car that turned 231 laps vs. beating a car that turned 317 laps, and building a good $20,000 car might be easier than building a great $50,000 car.

It's a fairly modest bribe for each fast team relative to their overall expenses and their lost racing opportunities, but there's a chance they might go along with it just for the humor of messing with Jay.

Ah! That's no fun.

I'm sure the tops at Lemons we're thinking "Wow this is an impossible feat so we can just throw out any kind of money and it doesn't matter."

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  • From: Cleveland, OH
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Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

OnkelUdo wrote:
Guildenstern wrote:

Yes, it could be done. But once you count the three phase genny trailers, and the LithiumPolymer battery packs (at Least 4) you'll probably be down about say $50,000.

Oddly, the rental of large Cat or Ingersoll Gennie is the easy part as long as you have an experience/contacts with construction rental companies.  The multiple charges needed get expensive and...

...at the end of the day the energy density is a thing I could not get over.  I use Gingerman as my example so you need to maintain under a two minute lap and max two 5 minute stops on day one and one on day two to make that happen.  A rough guesstimate is 4 Nissan Leaf packs (lowest common denominator) at about 800# each and all 4 have to be swapped at each of those stops.  Let's think about what that 3200#'s of "fuel" means to handling and acceleration.  Finally, i would not want 3200#'s of  difficult to extinguish material on a track I owned plus another 6400#'s in the paddock.

I really have gone through it in my head and the only thing I can think of is race with baby Jebus hours AND paddock fueling plus small car counts and tons of luck.

I think you have to think of it differently. You don't have to match an IC's energy density, you just have to beat its lap count. As with all Lemons racing, it's won in the pits. You come up with a dead quick battery change and you can run light and fast.

It would have to be something that doesn't require any jacking up the car or lifting out of the battery pack. Some kind of single plane gantry for slide in, slide out. Possibly even a dual slot A-B system so one battery can go in as the other comes out. (some CG change) And LOTS of practice. In the end you'll probably be spending close to that $50,000.00 to manage it.

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22 Reply by Guildenstern (edited by Guildenstern 2019-03-02 01:20 PM)

  • From: Cleveland, OH
  • Registered: 2011-09-03
  • Posts: 2,227

Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

mharrell wrote:
nimblemotorsports wrote:

[...for example to pay other gas cars to lose, at a low-count race...

That does seem like the key to an "easy" victory. Build a car that, with the right drivers, can run in roughly the top half of the field at a smaller event, then bribe the remaining faster teams to develop unspecified mechanical issues early enough in the race to let the EV win.

Inde had 35 cars last weekend, so a bribe of $2000 apiece to, say, the top fifteen teams would still leave a pot of $20,000 for the EV team. Buying off the top half-ish of the field last weekend would have meant the difference between beating a car that turned 231 laps vs. beating a car that turned 317 laps, and building a good $20,000 car might be easier than building a great $50,000 car.

It's a fairly modest bribe for each fast team relative to their overall expenses and their lost racing opportunities, but there's a chance they might go along with it just for the humor of messing with Jay.

You're forgetting this is Lemons. Somehow teams will fail at losing if you make that their goal.

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  • Registered: 2018-07-02
  • Posts: 266

Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

Guildenstern wrote:
mharrell wrote:
nimblemotorsports wrote:

[...for example to pay other gas cars to lose, at a low-count race...

That does seem like the key to an "easy" victory. Build a car that, with the right drivers, can run in roughly the top half of the field at a smaller event, then bribe the remaining faster teams to develop unspecified mechanical issues early enough in the race to let the EV win.

Inde had 35 cars last weekend, so a bribe of $2000 apiece to, say, the top fifteen teams would still leave a pot of $20,000 for the EV team. Buying off the top half-ish of the field last weekend would have meant the difference between beating a car that turned 231 laps vs. beating a car that turned 317 laps, and building a good $20,000 car might be easier than building a great $50,000 car.

It's a fairly modest bribe for each fast team relative to their overall expenses and their lost racing opportunities, but there's a chance they might go along with it just for the humor of messing with Jay.

You're forgetting this is Lemons. Somehow teams will fail at losing if you make that their goal.


Fail at losing? lol

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  • From: Seattle, WA
  • Registered: 2009-10-28
  • Posts: 2,111

Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

Guildenstern wrote:

You're forgetting this is Lemons. Somehow teams will fail at losing if you make that their goal.

Yeah, that's why the expectations and the contingencies would have to be spelled out fairly clearly:

"Gee, it would be a shame if your team only turned about 200 laps before suffering catastrophic car failure. If that were to happen, though, and if the EV were to win overall afterwards, then there's two grand in it for you. Plus it'll mess with Jay. Just sayin'."

I admit it's still far from foolproof.

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1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
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1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP, Organizer's Choice 2022 Hell on Wheels California Rally

25 Reply by fleming95 (edited by fleming95 2019-03-02 02:20 PM)

  • Registered: 2009-06-10
  • Posts: 558

Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

Guildenstern wrote:

You're forgetting this is Lemons. Somehow teams will fail at losing if you make that their goal.

Yep - everyone knows how to fly, right - just throw yourself at the ground and miss! smile

That said, the 7 1/2-ton-nickel-elephant-in-the-room is that Tesla HQ ain't far from Lemons HQ, and if we/Jay goaded that other car guy into an ego challenge _then_ we'd see something -

- like the K on track with a factory-backed, ~$200k autonomously driving electric 'race' car, both of of which would catch on fire after the  spirit of the 'K' spread like the klap -

<edit>

Oh, and this does open up a new springtime of idiocy that I'm looking forward to seeing -

- electric Jaguar racecar, anyone?