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Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

jfbeam wrote:

(a) EVs are budget exempt -- currently.

richv70 already covered that.

jfbeam wrote:

(b) There are EV race cars with the speed to win overall. The key issue is fuel -- batteries. I doubt any of the teams with such cars even have enough batteries to last an entire day, much less the two days of a race. Plus, do you really want 3 semi's worth of shit showing up for a single car?

I can build a Class A paced EV. It just takes money. (about $10-15k) I can build hot-swap battery systems -- expense is a matter of what Jay wants w.r.t. safety. However, I'd need about three dozen of those systems. For the not-remotely-class-A-fast 007, that's $150k worth of batteries; a class-A pace might take 10x that.

NOT THAT I WANT TO DISCOURAGE ANYONE FROM ATTEMPTING IT. By all means, I want to see more "Class E" cars. Yes, it will be a few more years before Jay's nickels are in danger. (unless Bream wants to bring his warehouse of batteries to a track.)

Who said anything about speed?  You can't win a Lemons race (overall) with a car that has to stop every hour.  There's no way to make up that time off track, even if fueling is instantaneous.  We can talk about why that is if you want, but I should think it would be reasonably obvious.

I also think you are under-stating the difficulty (and cost) of building an EV that can reliably maintain the kind of duty cycle road racing requires at the sorts of high power levels we are talking about and over a race distance.  But that's just an unsupported assertion on my part and I may very well be wrong.

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Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

hoverducky wrote:
jfbeam wrote:

EVs are budget exempt -- currently.

richv70 already covered that.

Not really. 99% of the work in an EV conversion is the motor, controller, batteries, and wiring. All of that is explicitly exempt. If you went all cheety with "racing suspension" -- that wouldn't do you any good with a ton of battery weight -- they might give you some grief, but I'm reasonably sure no one would even look. If you showed up with a caged Tesla Model S or 3 (copart special), they'd laugh and point, then put you in Class C and wait (briefly) for it to overheat and/or burn itself to slag behind a wall somewhere. (please driving it away from the race when it starts to burn so we can continue to drive.)

Who said anything about speed? ... I also think you are under-stating the difficulty (and cost) of building an EV...

I DID! Speed is the only way to make up for the time spent "refueling", because you're going to be doing about 10x as many stops, at best about twice as fast (1min vs 3 -- and that's if you have a perfect battery tray system ($$$)) It will also depend highly on the track -- pick one where you don't lose a lap coming down pit road.

Understating difficulty, perhaps -- I have an EV racecar, so I'm more aware of the industry. (eg. there ARE EV race components; they're just expensive, and somewhat rare) But understating cost? No. No. No. I've been nothing but up front about this not being remotely attainable for the prize money.

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  • From: Gilbertsville, PA
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Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

Not with todays best technology.

Maybe in another 10 years..

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179 Reply by chaase (edited by chaase 2019-03-27 11:47 AM)

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Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

Sir Thomas Crapper wrote:

Not with todays best technology.

Maybe in another 10 years..

I think the next generation of batteries will make things a bit more competitive. I'd like to see what could be done with flow batteries if they can make a breakthrough there.

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Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

So, I was browsing through how CARB sees an i3 with the REX option, and if the range with just batteries is greater than the range with just the APU, then it is still a battery-operated electric vehicle, which is why US versions had a slightly smaller gas tank than non-US versions.

Turbine-powered aircraft APUs make 60kw and weigh less than 100 pounds.

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Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

They do, but what's an APU's fuel consumption per hour?

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Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

240 lbs/hr @ 90kw.

A common 737 APU makes 90kw and weighs 375 pounds. I could easily mount that in a vehicle.

I'm having the thought that maybe a 737 APU screaming and guzzling jet fuel while riding around the track in the bed of an old Ford Ranger driven by a DIY forklift-motor conversion may not be what they had in mind for the EV challenge, but it SHOULD be.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

183 Reply by chaase (edited by chaase 2019-03-29 05:40 AM)

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Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

rmcdaniels wrote:

240 lbs/hr @ 90kw.

A common 737 APU makes 90kw and weighs 375 pounds. I could easily mount that in a vehicle.

I'm having the thought that maybe a 737 APU screaming and guzzling jet fuel while riding around the track in the bed of an old Ford Ranger driven by a DIY forklift-motor conversion.

I don't see the problem. What could possibly go wrong?!?!

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Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

So with the largest allowable fuel cell you would get less than an hour per fill up.


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185 Reply by RobL

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Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

Guildenstern wrote:

So with the largest allowable fuel cell you would get less than an hour per fill up.


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And only have ~100hp available.

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Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

Good thought, so make the base vehicle an F-150 from the 80's with dual 19-gallon tanks, or if you can find one with the extra large tank option, then a 19-gallon front and a 38-gallon rear tank.

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Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

Don't most turbine APU's run on Jet-A?  The APU would need to run on gasoline/diesel as gas/dizzle are the only fuels allowed.  And yes I fully understand why as a racetrack is unlikely to have the the equipment to fight a Jet-A fire.

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Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

cheseroo wrote:

Don't most turbine APU's run on Jet-A?  The APU would need to run on gasoline/diesel as gas/dizzle are the only fuels allowed.  And yes I fully understand why as a racetrack is unlikely to have the the equipment to fight a Jet-A fire.

At sea level and above 20 degrees they act very much the same (Jet A and diesel) so unlikely to be much of an issue.  Other than being a higher spec for purity, the major difference is the anti-gelling agents...wing tanks get a bit chilly at 30,000'.  If your worried, get one set up for JP8...promise that will run on DF1 or DF2.

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Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

I was thinking diesel as well. I've seen JP5 and JP8 used as diesel fuel before (and they all taste the same), and I've used kerosene as diesel before (JP8 is basically kerosene with extra ingredients for low temps and water contamination), so I'm thinking that you run diesel through it and keep it below 30,000 feet and it should be fine.

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190 Reply by RSB

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Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

These 'micro' turbines were used in a Jag concept car about 10 years ago. Never went anywhere, the company that made them (Bladon) now focuses on gensets for remote locations, cell towers, etc.


https://www.theengineer.co.uk/jet-power … ne-hybrid/

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Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

That Bladon generator would be perfect. I need one of these in my next Lemons car:

http://www.carolinahondas.com/members/roger-albums-pj-picture6824-bladonjets.jpg

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Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

rmcdaniels wrote:

That Bladon generator would be perfect. I need one of these in my next Lemons car:

http://www.carolinahondas.com/members/roger-albums-pj-picture6824-bladonjets.jpg

Centrifugal flow with likely 1950's tech burner cans...hell yeah.  Get a T37 engine while your at it.

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Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

rmcdaniels wrote:

I was thinking diesel as well. I've seen JP5 and JP8 used as diesel fuel before (and they all taste the same), and I've used kerosene as diesel before (JP8 is basically kerosene with extra ingredients for low temps and water contamination), so I'm thinking that you run diesel through it and keep it below 30,000 feet and it should be fine.

A turbine will run on any liquid that will burn. The only other diesel issue is what other gunk is in it that may cludge up the injectors or burner.

Still only one good way to find out!

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194 Reply by chaase (edited by chaase 2019-04-01 10:45 AM)

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Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

Guildenstern wrote:
rmcdaniels wrote:

I was thinking diesel as well. I've seen JP5 and JP8 used as diesel fuel before (and they all taste the same), and I've used kerosene as diesel before (JP8 is basically kerosene with extra ingredients for low temps and water contamination), so I'm thinking that you run diesel through it and keep it below 30,000 feet and it should be fine.

A turbine will run on any liquid that will burn. The only other diesel issue is what other gunk is in it that may cludge up the injectors or burner.

Still only one good way to find out!

Use #2 Heating oil instead of diesel. You don't have all of the other additives and its cheaper 8-)

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Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

Rules say Gas or Diesel

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Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

Guildenstern wrote:

Rules say Gas or Diesel

They won't know except for the pretty red exhaust.

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1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
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197 Reply by darkostoj (edited by darkostoj 2019-05-17 05:42 AM)

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Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm......

https://i.ibb.co/jVcMBHz/s-l1600.jpg

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Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

Mmmmm lookit all those AA's!

Enough to run an X-box 360 controller for a Week, maybe a week and 1/2!

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Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

chaase wrote:
Guildenstern wrote:

Rules say Gas or Diesel

They won't know except for the pretty red exhaust.

Buy it at the pump that says "off-road diesel".

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200 Reply by darkostoj (edited by darkostoj 2019-06-01 11:11 AM)

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Re: Is winning an overall race with an EV vehicle even possible?

In case anyone was curious.  We have been selling the Tesla Battery Modules like hotcakes here. 

We are getting around $1200 shipped per module.

With how much batteries cost I don't think anyone will ever take that prize unless its a company like Tesla or Rivian and it will be at a total loss.

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