Topic: Will this cage pass tech?

Just got my car back from the fabricator, I thought I would post it here to see if it looks good now instead of waiting until race day:

Left Rear
https://i.ibb.co/16R7MCz/9943064-F-9-E87-40-CC-A6-AF-A2-D72-AFA557-E.jpg

Right Rear
https://i.ibb.co/B6nDjW9/A7-FDC752-1804-4-E98-A050-C7835031-E229.jpg

Left Center - just behind driver's seat
https://i.ibb.co/VSHtshV/9-C76458-F-5475-4-B60-985-D-B8-C8-D985-AB67.jpg

Right Center
https://i.ibb.co/2ZMsCD4/00-E3-EB5-B-792-E-49-AD-BC67-CCEB9-CDA1941.jpg

Left front - sorry this is upside down
https://i.ibb.co/GHJS2t5/3694-ABDD-9-D4-D-4-D6-C-8523-2-DAEDD3-BD0-AC.jpg

Right front - sorry this is upside down
https://i.ibb.co/31GRPCV/67-A1-DF6-D-4955-42-F9-A7-DE-8-F612-FA9040-D.jpg

Upper seatbelt mounts
https://i.ibb.co/c65bptK/BA7-BBE95-9072-4-C77-AD1-D-8-A3931-CF971-D.jpg

Re: Will this cage pass tech?

Shoot John Pagel an email.  I, personally, don't see anything obvious but I'm sure that he is going to want more pictures. 

As an aside, don't do the belts like that.  They wrap around the bar instead of going through an anchor plate that gets bolted to the bar.  Less things to fail and all that.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: Will this cage pass tech?

Yeah, the belts are probably a no-go.  That looks like a tuner track day setup.  They need to wrap around the harness bar and not use those bolt through tabs in single shear.  Sorta like in this pic except the tails should go back through the buckle.

https://www.tdamotorsports.com/pictures/mgp/SBHB_002.jpg

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

4 (edited by Sonic 2020-03-02 06:08 PM)

Re: Will this cage pass tech?

Agreed, the welds look like good quality.  The main hoop diagonal is opposite of what is usual (top corner terminates above the driver for the strongest point of triangulation).  It is also hard to see if the horizontal bar goes all the way across or not, all the way is better and little more work or tubing.

Pics of the door bars would be good to see, those can vary wildly.

It is hard to tell the size of the spreader plates, they need to be 24 square inches, some of those look a little small. 

I also dislike that shoulder belt setup, more potential things to fail, just wrap around the bars instead.

Chris from 3 Pedal Mafia

Re: Will this cage pass tech?

Here are a few more images. Some of these show the cage in progress, so the welds are not complete. FWIW, the welds look very good and complete up close.

https://i.ibb.co/5FV3Z5W/7-A1-C1-F59-048-E-4793-96-EB-615-B1729-AD9-E.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/5BDWrBW/4-A7-E54-B3-DF65-4-BE5-A1-E5-59-BE69-A591-D3.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/KWDjBNz/4-D8977-B7-361-E-4-A31-8005-018-AF8-DD1161.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/kXvSTWY/F0-EDD03-A-C53-C-438-F-8-AD8-1-DCAAC41660-E.jpg

Re: Will this cage pass tech?

Sonic is prescient.

According to the:

How To Not Fail Lemons Tech Inspection

the diagonal needs to cover the driver's head. And the diagonal needs to be a single piece.

But: I defer to Pagel.

Re: Will this cage pass tech?

Lemon_Newton-Metre wrote:

Sonic is prescient.

According to the:

How To Not Fail Lemons Tech Inspection

the diagonal needs to cover the driver's head. And the diagonal needs to be a single piece.

But: I defer to Pagel.

My diagonal is a single piece, but, I see from the drawing it is in the opposite mounting points.

Re: Will this cage pass tech?

I would also expect a little grief over the down bars. If I were building it, and had cut the dash already, why not put the landing further forward?

To pile on with the others, you should add an "X" to the diagonals. Not sure if making the "driver/top" to "passenger/bottom" two piece will pass, so as above, contact Pagel.

That guy

Re: Will this cage pass tech?

Didn't notice the main hoop diagonal being backwards - sideways picture and all that.  I know in the past, they have allowed a second diagonal to go above the driver so that you didn't have to rip out the first one.  Two pieces in a direct line as if one bar.  Again, check with John.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: Will this cage pass tech?

I'm wrong about the diagonal needing to be one piece - that's not actually specified in the rules: "Each major loadbearing member must be formed from a single, continuous tube."

It was my conclusion, though, after reviewing the diagrams, that in the case of a roll-over, I would want that diagonal to be one piece, and bracing the top left of the cage away from my head.

Rather than keeping, for example - the cool-shirt cooler - safe and sound.

Because in the case of a roll-over, that diagonal _becomes_ a load bearing member, if you didn't already consider it so.

Only thing I can figure from reviewing the document and the rules: 3.e.1 - which admittedly don't specify in writing which direction the diagonal should go - is perhaps the fabricator read the "backstays" section [pp. 13, 14], he didn't notice the "rear view cutout" notation on p.13.
With the idea of layers in engineering drawings, all the drawings in the document with regard to the diagonal are consistent in presentation.
They all appear to support the idea the cage is meant to protect the driver; and, if I may, the most important part of the driver: their head.

But again: Pagel

Re: Will this cage pass tech?

Another +1 on not liking the shoulder belt anchors.  Not that it won't pass, but if if were mine, I'd want  the A-pillar down bars as far forward as I could get.  If the dash is in the way, try a sawzall.  wink

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: Will this cage pass tech?

Seem to recall Pagel saying a diagonal running in that direction is legal but again, he's the final arbiter of this type of stuff.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

13 (edited by chaase 2020-03-03 07:59 AM)

Re: Will this cage pass tech?

DirtyDuc wrote:

I would also expect a little grief over the down bars. If I were building it, and had cut the dash already, why not put the landing further forward?

contact Pagel.

I don't know the exact legality  but we try to follow the A-pillar for as long as possible and then drop straight down. It is a little bit harder but ingress/egress is easier with the extra space.  We usually do the halo as one piece and the down bars as single bars. It makes it easier to fit the down bars. They are a little more difficult to weld 360 degrees but you get a better overall fit.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

Re: Will this cage pass tech?

I'd add the additional "harness" bar to bisect the main hoop on the passenger side.
I also try to have the diagonal above the driver, so if I received that cage I'd x-brace the main hoop

For handling purposes, I tie the rear shock/strut towers together and then add x-bracing between the
back stays for additional rigidity and safety.

Capt. Delinquent Racing
RUST-TITE XR4Ti - '21 ARSE-FREEZE-APALOOZA  I Got Screwed
The One & Only Taurus V8 SHO #31(now moved on to another OG Delinquent)
'17 Vodden the Hell - (No) Hope for the Future Award, '08 AMP Survivor, '08 ARSE-FREEZE-APALOOZA Mega-Cheater

Re: Will this cage pass tech?

cheseroo wrote:

Seem to recall Pagel saying a diagonal running in that direction is legal but again, he's the final arbiter of this type of stuff.

I recall the same thing. Not ideal, but not a deal breaker. Depends on the quality of the rest of the cage install. That looks good, though.


Again, not a deal breaker-- but I'd concur with Sonic and have that harness bar extended full width primarily because the diagonal is not currently above the driver's head.


The other questionable part is as others have said-- the A-pillar is a little far back from the driver footwell than they sometimes like to see. You can prevent additional scrutiny of this if you demonstrate that you "thought of that" and go ahead and put 1 if not 2 bars opposite and forward of the 2 door bars that terminate on a plate at the inner wheelwell / fire wall. This will help with wheel intrusion and show that, "yea, the A pilllar bar looks a little far back but that's why I did this intrusion protection for the driver here..." Or one bar starts at the A-pillar plinth box and goes forward up while another starts opposite the top door bar and goes forward and down, triangulating or nearly triangulating at the footwell or wheel well. Bitch to weld down there now that the cage doorbars are done, but worth the effort.


In general, if you are deviating from the "ideal" you want to demonstrate that, Yea we know it doesn't fit the ideal case, but this is what we did to make up for it.

Re: Will this cage pass tech?

Thanks everyone for all the great comments! I got with John today and discussed remedies.

Re: Will this cage pass tech?

I have nothing to add about the cage, but wow, a Caliber!

Fourteen time loser. You'd think I'd know better by now.

Re: Will this cage pass tech?

They boxs for the maim hoops will not pass needs the spread plates under them. there just like punks to cut through the floor the way they are know. The dig is wrong John will most likely fail it.. on the foot well I would add a bar to the front strut to help save your feet and make John happier. Add a dash bar. and finish off the left to right main hoop bar.

Re: Will this cage pass tech?

I don't see an issue with adding the diagonal in two sections that line up to the existing one.  Why would this be any different to having 2 door bars in an X pattern that do the same?   Not to say I'm a fan of X bars in doors where one is in two sections, at least not without taco shells or other added support, because in the intersection itself there is only ONE tube.  This is a critical stress point for a lateral impact at the intersection of the X, and that seems to be fine per the rules for door bars, but the main hoop diagonal is there for and designed for different loading.

Both our cars have two 'shoulder' bars on the drivers side.  One for the harness, and one that is intersected by the diagonal main hoop support providing side impact support. 


Bill

2020 I.O.E. CT #36 The Rootes Of All Evil,1958 Sunbeam Rapier Convertible (YES 1958!!) & 2019 Judges Choice NJMP
2016 Thompson Speedway #36 Sabrina Duncan's Revenge, IOE Trophy, 5th Place 'C' Class 1977 Ford Pinto
2009 Stafford Motor Speedway #16 Team Teflon, 11th Place (overall) 1997 Saturn SL2

Re: Will this cage pass tech?

Were building our cage now..

Is there any preference to using the shock towers vs the trunk floor for mount points?

Re: Will this cage pass tech?

jpz3 wrote:

Were building our cage now..

Is there any preference to using the shock towers vs the trunk floor for mount points?

The tech sheet want the back stays on an approximately 45 degree angle. If you can do that and get them on the shock towers, then that is what I would do.

Re: Will this cage pass tech?

Your shock towers are most likely strut towers.
If they are strut towers mounting to them will provide several benefits:
- Stiffen suspension points for more accurate handling
- Provide thicker and stronger points for roll cage structure
- Provide triangulation for suspension points

I would also run a bar horizontally between the towers for rigidity and increased rollover structure.

Capt. Delinquent Racing
RUST-TITE XR4Ti - '21 ARSE-FREEZE-APALOOZA  I Got Screwed
The One & Only Taurus V8 SHO #31(now moved on to another OG Delinquent)
'17 Vodden the Hell - (No) Hope for the Future Award, '08 AMP Survivor, '08 ARSE-FREEZE-APALOOZA Mega-Cheater

Re: Will this cage pass tech?

Egress would be a concern for me - you need to survive the impact and be able to get out quickly.  A lot of room sacrificed running the front bars straight down instead of sticking with the contour of the A pillars.

Re: Will this cage pass tech?

ChiFJ40 wrote:

Egress would be a concern for me - you need to survive the impact and be able to get out quickly.  A lot of room sacrificed running the front bars straight down instead of sticking with the contour of the A pillars.

But being further back like shown they are stronger in the event of a roll over.  Almost everything has a trade-off.

2020 I.O.E. CT #36 The Rootes Of All Evil,1958 Sunbeam Rapier Convertible (YES 1958!!) & 2019 Judges Choice NJMP
2016 Thompson Speedway #36 Sabrina Duncan's Revenge, IOE Trophy, 5th Place 'C' Class 1977 Ford Pinto
2009 Stafford Motor Speedway #16 Team Teflon, 11th Place (overall) 1997 Saturn SL2