Topic: New team cage questions

Greetings.  Running at Road Atlanta in a month.  We have read all of the rules and the "How not to fail inspection", but we have different opinions on the following.  In the image below, can we pass inspection by:  1. Putting a bar in the green line.  2.  Putting a bar in the red line.  3.  No additional bar is needed.

Thanks!

https://i.ibb.co/vZgcCCL/Cage.jpg

2 (edited by TheEngineer 2021-11-11 07:46 AM)

Re: New team cage questions

Needs option 2. The point is to triangulate one far corner to the other.


Edit make sure you address the sunroof too. You can't leave the glass panel, and it's easier to remove that whole assembly before you weld the cage in. Ditching the assembly will allow you to raise the cage some more as well, which gives more head room.

20+ Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Turbo Dodge Powered E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: New team cage questions

TheEngineer wrote:

Needs option 2. The point is to triangulate one far corner to the other.


Edit make sure you address the sunroof too. You can't leave the glass panel, and it's easier to remove that whole assembly before you weld the cage in. Ditching the assembly will allow you to raise the cage some more as well, which gives more head room.

/agree

#2 is a required bar.

Read this..then read it again
https://24hoursoflemons.com/wp-content/ … 040419.pdf

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

Re: New team cage questions

TheEngineer wrote:

Edit make sure you address the sunroof too. You can't leave the glass panel, and it's easier to remove that whole assembly before you weld the cage in. Ditching the assembly will allow you to raise the cage some more as well, which gives more head room.


We have a debate on our team regarding the sunroof as well.  According to the rule below, does the following line qualify for leaving the glass in but it is covered by the factory composite sunroof panel?  We don't see where it says glass must be removed, only that no open sunroofs are allowed.

"All sunroof openings must be covered by either the original metal or composite sunroof panel"

3.10.7     No Open Sunroofs. All sunroof openings must be covered by either the original metal or composite sunroof panel; a new non-breakable panel securely fixed into place; or securely fixed mesh with openings no larger than 1/2-inch each. Glass T-tops or moonroof must be removed and either replaced with sturdy non-breakable material or all drivers must wear arm restraints.

5 (edited by chaase 2021-11-11 08:58 AM)

Re: New team cage questions

ike2010 wrote:
TheEngineer wrote:

Edit make sure you address the sunroof too. You can't leave the glass panel, and it's easier to remove that whole assembly before you weld the cage in. Ditching the assembly will allow you to raise the cage some more as well, which gives more head room.


We have a debate on our team regarding the sunroof as well.  According to the rule below, does the following line qualify for leaving the glass in but it is covered by the factory composite sunroof panel?  We don't see where it says glass must be removed, only that no open sunroofs are allowed.

"All sunroof openings must be covered by either the original metal or composite sunroof panel"

3.10.7     No Open Sunroofs. All sunroof openings must be covered by either the original metal or composite sunroof panel; a new non-breakable panel securely fixed into place; or securely fixed mesh with openings no larger than 1/2-inch each. Glass T-tops or moonroof must be removed and either replaced with sturdy non-breakable material or all drivers must wear arm restraints.

The rules were a bit confusing around sunroof. It says or used to say you can keep the OE glass but when my friends Beetle was prepping for tech, he was told the glass had to be removed by Pagel. I would email him to confirm, but it should probably be removed and replaced.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

Re: New team cage questions

Look up the definitions of "sunroof" and "moonroof" and you will see that the rule unambiguously requires the glass to be removed.

Re: New team cage questions

hoverducky wrote:

Look up the definitions of "sunroof" and "moonroof" and you will see that the rule unambiguously requires the glass to be removed.

In general, I would remove any extra glass from the car if possible, especially glass that can be break and shower the driver.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

Re: New team cage questions

Yeah, we leave all the side glass and hatch glass, but the sunroof came out. Pull the whole assembly, go to home depot and grab a piece of thin sheet metal, then rivet and RTV it over the hole. I've seen enough teams get told at tech that glass in the roof has to go, and you don't win arguments with the tech guys over rule ambiguity.

20+ Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Turbo Dodge Powered E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: New team cage questions

You can leave side windows and have a net or barrier to catch broken glass, I would argue the same for a sun roof, but catching it would be quite a bit harder and I think is more of a grey area. Regardless, the effort required the retain the glass is wayyy more than just removing it so I'd just remove it.. safer, lighter, easier.

For the cage, you'd need the red diagonal and it must be un-interrupted. Since it looks like your harness bar is in-plane with the main hoop you will need to cut/notch tie in your harness bar to the main hoop diagonal.

Full Ass Racing
#455 Piñata Miata

Re: New team cage questions

I'm not arguing that removing glass isn't a good idea. I've had enough of getting cut by broken glass, and sitting on and removing broken window glass to last me the rest of my life.

Rule 3.10.7 discusses sunroof _openings_, then original covering panels (which would be _inside_ the car), and then arm restraints - similar to rule 3.10.8.

Rule 3.10.10 allows window glass to be behind encasing panels.

Question:
How many cubic feet of dirt is in a hole that is precisely one cubic yard (i.e.: 1 yard x 1 yard x 1 yard)?

... not that removing all that glass in a controlled manner, at the time of your own choosing, isn't a good idea; I certainly think it is...

Re: New team cage questions

Lemon_Newton-Metre wrote:

Question:
How many cubic feet of dirt is in a hole that is precisely one cubic yard (i.e.: 1 yard x 1 yard x 1 yard)?

None.....If there was dirt in it,it wouldn't be a hole.......

40+x Loser.....You'd think I would learn......
5x I.O.E  Winner   1 Heroic Fix Winner   1 Org Choice Winner
2x  I Got Screwed Winner    2x Class C Winner
(Still a Class B driver in a Class A car)

Re: New team cage questions

TheEngineer wrote:

Yeah, we leave all the side glass and hatch glass, but the sunroof came out. Pull the whole assembly, go to home depot and grab a piece of thin sheet metal, then rivet and RTV it over the hole. I've seen enough teams get told at tech that glass in the roof has to go, and you don't win arguments with the tech guys over rule ambiguity.

pretty sure that hatch glass has to come out. Plus you lose a lot of weight depending on the car. We have a 88 Firebird, the hatch was HEAVY. Went with a lexan replacement.

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: New team cage questions

Mr.Yuck wrote:
TheEngineer wrote:

Yeah, we leave all the side glass and hatch glass, but the sunroof came out. Pull the whole assembly, go to home depot and grab a piece of thin sheet metal, then rivet and RTV it over the hole. I've seen enough teams get told at tech that glass in the roof has to go, and you don't win arguments with the tech guys over rule ambiguity.

pretty sure that hatch glass has to come out. Plus you lose a lot of weight depending on the car. We have a 88 Firebird, the hatch was HEAVY. Went with a lexan replacement.

10 years doing this, never once asked to remove the hatch glass, from two different cars. Removing it may lose weight, but often screws with aero and can create more drag. On some cars it also makes a vacuum that pulls exhaust into the car. Our cars live outside, we leave the glass for weather reasons. Making a lexan replacement on the saab would be miserable.

20+ Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Turbo Dodge Powered E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: New team cage questions

duthehustle93 wrote:

You can leave side windows and have a net or barrier to catch broken glass, I would argue the same for a sun roof, but catching it would be quite a bit harder and I think is more of a grey area.

Well... no. You can leave side windows behind the driver in place without any sort of net or barrier. If you want a net or barrier, fine, but it's not in the rules.

For the front doors, and only the front doors, if the glass is retained then it must be in the down position and behind "fully encasing door panels" not just a net.

Glass above the driver must be removed, whether we're talking t-tops, moon roofs, or any other glass up top. You can either leave the resulting hole open and wear arm restraints or fill the hole with "sturdy non-breakable material" but the glass itself has got to go.

Mr.Yuck wrote:

pretty sure that hatch glass has to come out.

Nope. Hatch glass can stay.

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP

Re: New team cage questions

mharrell wrote:
duthehustle93 wrote:

You can leave side windows and have a net or barrier to catch broken glass, I would argue the same for a sun roof, but catching it would be quite a bit harder and I think is more of a grey area.

Well... no. You can leave side windows behind the driver in place without any sort of net or barrier. If you want a net or barrier, fine, but it's not in the rules.

For the front doors, and only the front doors, if the glass is retained then it must be in the down position and behind "fully encasing door panels" not just a net.

Glass above the driver must be removed, whether we're talking t-tops, moon roofs, or any other glass up top. You can either leave the resulting hole open and wear arm restraints or fill the hole with "sturdy non-breakable material" but the glass itself has got to go.

Mr.Yuck wrote:

pretty sure that hatch glass has to come out.

Nope. Hatch glass can stay.

Correct, sorry that's what I meant to say; I was trying to mention that there is a way to keep side glass if you desire for whatever reason. But I left out some of the most important details. Thanks for clarifying/correcting.

Full Ass Racing
#455 Piñata Miata

Re: New team cage questions

Might as well ask this question now:

How about separate, rearward glass panels which are over the middle or third-row seats? Even, for example, the second glass panel on a LR Discovery I? I'm presuming any of these would be well behind a main hoop as well as the driver's seat.

Re: New team cage questions

TheEngineer wrote:
Mr.Yuck wrote:
TheEngineer wrote:

Yeah, we leave all the side glass and hatch glass, but the sunroof came out. Pull the whole assembly, go to home depot and grab a piece of thin sheet metal, then rivet and RTV it over the hole. I've seen enough teams get told at tech that glass in the roof has to go, and you don't win arguments with the tech guys over rule ambiguity.

pretty sure that hatch glass has to come out. Plus you lose a lot of weight depending on the car. We have a 88 Firebird, the hatch was HEAVY. Went with a lexan replacement.

10 years doing this, never once asked to remove the hatch glass, from two different cars. Removing it may lose weight, but often screws with aero and can create more drag. On some cars it also makes a vacuum that pulls exhaust into the car. Our cars live outside, we leave the glass for weather reasons. Making a lexan replacement on the saab would be miserable.

we race in the other league, it has to be removed or covered in clear window safety film.

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: New team cage questions

I would assume that if I were racing something with screwball glass locations like a(an) LR Discovery that I should clear said screwball glass with the tech tyrant. Pagel. His contact info is on the contacts page.

That guy

Re: New team cage questions

are those backstays going to cut it? why not go to a shock tower. Looks like this is a mk4 golf or something...that's just thin sheet metal back there right?

BSOD Racing, 1987 Fiat X1/9

Re: New team cage questions

Its hard to really tell from the photo, but if the two angled bars in the photo are not welded in yet, I would eliminate them and just use the one diagonal  that you show in red. Or just remove the passenger side. Adding bars because you can, or because you have seen them in other cars does not mean you need them, nor does it mean they will add any strength to a cage.  If you need to you can add an additional bar above your current shoulder bar to get your belts to the correct height.

The lower horiz bar that attaches to the legs of the main hoop looks like it will be very low, which is what you want, but I would either raise it up a little to make it easier to weld 360 or lower it down so that it lays flat on your boxes.  If you weld in main hoop attachments 360 you can drop that horiz bar flat on the boxes and weld it in 360 that way (welded across where it touches the box).  I had a situation where I needed to push the main stays against the rear wheel wells and Sir Pagel said it was fine.  Double check with him, but it was fine for my build.

2020 I.O.E. CT #36 The Rootes Of All Evil,1958 Sunbeam Rapier Convertible (YES 1958!!) & 2019 Judges Choice NJMP
2016 Thompson Speedway #36 Sabrina Duncan's Revenge, IOE Trophy, 5th Place 'C' Class 1977 Ford Pinto
2009 Stafford Motor Speedway #16 Team Teflon, 11th Place (overall) 1997 Saturn SL2

Re: New team cage questions

Lemon_Newton-Metre wrote:

How about separate, rearward glass panels which are over the middle or third-row seats? Even, for example, the second glass panel on a LR Discovery I? I'm presuming any of these would be well behind a main hoop as well as the driver's seat.

DirtyDuc is correct that this should go to Pagel for a definitive answer.

Just to engage in a bit of speculation, however, I'd say based on the fact that the rule in question requires the use of arm restraints for overhead openings that are left open that there's less concern about openings that aren't potentially in reach of a driver's limbs.

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP