Topic: Hidden Secrets of the Engine Assembly Fraternity?

I'm fixing to get my crankshaft back from the machine shop that polished out all the damage we did to it when we blew our motor back at Yee Haw It's Lemons/Houston Fall 2009. I've fully disassembled the motor, cleaned up what needed to be cleaned up, scraped what could be scraped, and I'm going to soon be assembling the motor.

This will be the first time I've ever fully assembled a motor from start to finish.

I'm looking forward to the challenge, but I'd be lying if I didn't say that I'm a little intimidated by the process too. I've got the Toyota factory manual for my 4AGE and I read through it pretty thoroughly when I was doing the dis-assembly, so I think I have some idea what I'm getting myself into in putting it back together. Ha! Yeah, I'm self-delusional, too.

So, I want to get this motor back together such that it will run a couple races before it blows up again. Are there any great secrets that y'all are willing to share regarding getting it right other than to follow the instructions meticulously, use assembly lube, and keep everything clean? I'm just a little lost lamb here looking for a way out of the woods. Cheers.

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.

Re: Hidden Secrets of the Engine Assembly Fraternity?

Just resist the temptation to sneak in some hot cams or higher-compression pistons while you've got the thing apart. Those parts just make your engine blow up faster.

Re: Hidden Secrets of the Engine Assembly Fraternity?

MurileeMartin wrote:

Just resist the temptation to sneak in some hot cams or higher-compression pistons while you've got the thing apart. Those parts just make your engine blow up faster.

ESPECIALLY on the 4AGE.  Great little engines, but they really like to cough up a lung after a few hours of hard running.

You're on the right track.  Keep it clean, use lube.  I strongly recommend you plastigage all the main & rod bearings before final assembly.  Yeah, a PITA, but you have a fresh turned crank and blown up rods and new bearings.  Who knows how the tolerances have stacked.

Jim C.
If God meant for us to race, we'd all have baggy Nomex skin.
08TMS.09NL.10GM, SP, NL.11SP, NL.12SP, VIR, NL.13GM, NJ.14NJ, VIR, WGI.15AB.16GM.17NCM.18GM.19...

Re: Hidden Secrets of the Engine Assembly Fraternity?

Pfft. Put more of everything in that sucker!

4AGE are pretty simple, no adjustable anything. Make sure you've got accurate cam timing and shim the oil pump blowoff spring so you've got an extra 10-20psi of oil pressure.

A buddy of mine used to build them for Formula Atlantic cars, 240HP+ naturally aspirated- but 600mi. between rebuild time.

For Lemons, think about some kind of ghetto-fabulous windage tray to keep the oil near the pump pickup...

2x Volvo PV544 (RIP '63) B20 power!
2007/2012/2013 Driver's Championship (what was I thinking!?) 144 races and counting.
2/25/24

5 (edited by Bender/StickFigureRacing 2010-03-17 02:58 PM)

Re: Hidden Secrets of the Engine Assembly Fraternity?

FJ40Jim wrote:

You're on the right track.  Keep it clean, use lube.  I strongly recommend you plastigage all the main & rod bearings before final assembly.  Yeah, a PITA, but you have a fresh turned crank and blown up rods and new bearings.  Who knows how the tolerances have stacked.

Tolerances? I know for a fact that the Killer Bee's were having bearing issues at Sears. They didn't worry about tolerances, they just added 20-50 diesel oil to their engine. It got them another lap. big_smile

Team: V-Ram/Altamont Team: Knights of the Round Track/Reno/Buttonwillow/Thunderhill Team: Death Mobile/Sears 2010/Thunderhill/ChumpCar  Spokane/ MSR Houston/Buttonwillow/Sears. MRolla Project /Reno
http://stickfigureracing.blogspot.com/

Re: Hidden Secrets of the Engine Assembly Fraternity?

Bender/StickFigureRacing wrote:
FJ40Jim wrote:

You're on the right track.  Keep it clean, use lube.  I strongly recommend you plastigage all the main & rod bearings before final assembly.  Yeah, a PITA, but you have a fresh turned crank and blown up rods and new bearings.  Who knows how the tolerances have stacked.

Tolerances? I know for a fact that the Killer Bee's were having bearing issues at Sears. They didn't worry about tolerances, they just added 20-50 diesel oil to their engine. It got them another lap. big_smile

Whoo-Hoo!! Boy was THAT ever fun.

"Real ZomBees prefer Bacon"
IOE(x2) MGB/SAAB 96, Judge's Choice, Class C Win, & 2011 Hooniverse Car of the Year!
MRolla, Stick Figure/Animal House, Free Range MR2, SAAB Sonett, "The Death Flip"
2008 Exoskeleton Jag Fiasco, Concours d Lemons - Rue Britannia, worse British car.

Re: Hidden Secrets of the Engine Assembly Fraternity?

"Sparky" Pete wrote:
Bender/StickFigureRacing wrote:

Tolerances? I know for a fact that the Killer Bee's were having bearing issues at Sears. They didn't worry about tolerances, they just added 20-50 diesel oil to their engine. It got them another lap. big_smile

Whoo-Hoo!! Boy was THAT ever fun.

Couldn't find any 80-90 gear lube?

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP, Organizer's Choice 2022 Hell on Wheels California Rally

Re: Hidden Secrets of the Engine Assembly Fraternity?

mharrell wrote:
"Sparky" Pete wrote:
Bender/StickFigureRacing wrote:

Tolerances? I know for a fact that the Killer Bee's were having bearing issues at Sears. They didn't worry about tolerances, they just added 20-50 diesel oil to their engine. It got them another lap. big_smile

Whoo-Hoo!! Boy was THAT ever fun.

Couldn't find any 80-90 gear lube?

Dammit Pete! See there was someone at the race that could have given you sooooo much more assistance than we did. I had two quarts of that stuff!

Team: V-Ram/Altamont Team: Knights of the Round Track/Reno/Buttonwillow/Thunderhill Team: Death Mobile/Sears 2010/Thunderhill/ChumpCar  Spokane/ MSR Houston/Buttonwillow/Sears. MRolla Project /Reno
http://stickfigureracing.blogspot.com/

Re: Hidden Secrets of the Engine Assembly Fraternity?

Mulry wrote:

I'm fixing to get my crankshaft back from the machine shop that polished out all the damage we did to it when we blew our motor back at Yee Haw It's Lemons/Houston Fall 2009. I've fully disassembled the motor, cleaned up what needed to be cleaned up, scraped what could be scraped, and I'm going to soon be assembling the motor.

This will be the first time I've ever fully assembled a motor from start to finish.

I'm looking forward to the challenge, but I'd be lying if I didn't say that I'm a little intimidated by the process too. I've got the Toyota factory manual for my 4AGE and I read through it pretty thoroughly when I was doing the dis-assembly, so I think I have some idea what I'm getting myself into in putting it back together. Ha! Yeah, I'm self-delusional, too.

So, I want to get this motor back together such that it will run a couple races before it blows up again. Are there any great secrets that y'all are willing to share regarding getting it right other than to follow the instructions meticulously, use assembly lube, and keep everything clean? I'm just a little lost lamb here looking for a way out of the woods. Cheers.

Granted I'm no engine builder (its much easier picking them up at junkyards)....but the guys that build the hot rod big $$$ porsche engines all use the assembly lube (redline is popular) & quite a bit of it.....they also MEASURE main and rod bearings....plastigauge will work...just make sure your bearings are within spec for your motor....tighter IS NOT better.....in fact you want to be in the middle-loose end of the range....for example 928 rod bearings are spec'd from 19 to 35 thousandths....  I have yet to find a 928 engine builder who builds an engine tighter than 25 thousandths......

Just take your time and measure everything & you should be fine....break in oil with lots of ZDDP helps too.......I am breaking in a 5.0L 500+ HP 928 engine tomorrow!!!!  Double the power of the estate in a car that weighs the same!!

Richard Doty
1984 Porsche 928 "Estate"
Porsche- "there is A substitute" Racing
Dirt Poorsche Racing #2

Re: Hidden Secrets of the Engine Assembly Fraternity?

Make sure you use brake clean or some other type of parts cleaner on the oil passages in the crank and block. Remove as many pipe plugs and the oil sensor to properly flush out oil and metal shavings. Clean the oil pump screen and check oil pump for scoring and proper clearance or replace the pump. Change the oil & filter after running the engine for about 1/2 hour. Personally I bring the engine up to about 4 grand about 30 seconds after I first have oil pressure to see if it will scatter(can't stand suspense)

It Ain't My Fault

Re: Hidden Secrets of the Engine Assembly Fraternity?

Never done a 4AGE, but clean threaded holes for rod and main caps thoroughly and use a small amount of threadlocker...torque up in steps and don't overtighten. Better to measure rod bolt torque by bolt stretch with a 'mike" if you can....best if possible to preoil the engine before firing either by spinning the pump or running the starter (in spurts, let it cool)  until the gauge moves....Check initial timing! you can ruin many engines with spark timing out of phase....and don't forget pigtail grounds....you can have weird misfires/codes/hard or no starts if the current grounds randomly through throttle cables, shift linkages, etc. Expect odd smells as  it warms up due to sealants outgassing, but kill it at the first sign of oil pressure or overheating issues. Fill the crankcase before the first startup! I'm not saying I've ever forgotten the oil but I know someone who has really, really well!

Jim "Endo" Anderton
30 years of racing and still not Brambilla.....

Re: Hidden Secrets of the Engine Assembly Fraternity?

4AGEs are 'sized' motors.  There are stamps on the crank, rods and block, you read the stamps, go to a matrix and buy the bearing that is the proper size for each journal.. fun, fun.  Once you grind the crank all bets are off and you just have to go with oversize bearings.....

Gosh, my business card says 'Tech Tyrant'

Re: Hidden Secrets of the Engine Assembly Fraternity?

Evil Genius wrote:

4AGEs are 'sized' motors.  There are stamps on the crank, rods and block, you read the stamps, go to a matrix and buy the bearing that is the proper size for each journal.. fun, fun.  Once you grind the crank all bets are off and you just have to go with oversize bearings.....

The funny thing about this is that the bearing tolerances are larger than the step increments in the matrix.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: Hidden Secrets of the Engine Assembly Fraternity?

I can't agree more that you need to wash all parts in warm, soapy water-- pull every  oil galley plug and run a soapy galley brush in it several dozen times. Same for the crank oil galleys and everywhere else. Why soap? It suspends the metal shavings. Same for the bores -- scrub them clean clean clean-- I use a toilet brush. Rinse, repeat. Assemble bearings in a clean environment-- even dust can be bad. wash hands/change gloves often. Don't use a harbor freight torque wrench-- rent a high dollar one (use and return) if necessary. Make sure torque settings are for dry or oiled threads-- don't assume. Use a rethreading kit (not a tap and die) to chase the threads (before you wash it duh). use a heat gun to dry things rapidly to avoid rust flashing or WD 40 or both.  Diesel oil has a bunch of ZDDP in it and so does STP 4-cyl oil treatment (red bottle). Good for flat tappet cams/lifters but slows down bedding in of rings.

Mind you, this is just what I've heard and I really don't know anything about building motors myself.

Re: Hidden Secrets of the Engine Assembly Fraternity?

While you have the engine upside down...check the pickup-to-pan clearance....I used to weld a small tab on the bottom of the pickup to keep a flattened oil pan from causing oil starvation....also if the pickup tube is pressed into the block, tack/braze/wire it in. While you're there you could also tack on a tab to let you safety wire the drain plug....or bring one of those "dripless/stripless" rubber plug kits if you change oil at the track in case the plug goes into the grass in the darkness...not that this has ever happened to me...

Jim "Endo" Anderton
30 years of racing and still not Brambilla.....

Re: Hidden Secrets of the Engine Assembly Fraternity?

I'll echo what others have said about shimming the oil pump relief valve spring. I've used a piece of .020" feeler gauge. Keeping the clearance big on the rod bearings is also good advice. When I throw some in my SHO motor, I'll probly just order the same size that is in it now. If your engine doesn't have piston oil squirters, another trick is grooving (or enlarging the grooves if they're already there) the side of the rod above the bearing area. This will allow oil to shoot up to the piston and help keep things cool. You can get a free oil cooler out of you A/C evaporator core (cleaned out!) coupled with a block fitting that has a .020" orifice. It'll really tie the room together.

The Charnal House Geo MetSHO: Turning less laps than a regular Metro, the hard way!

1969 Subaru 360

Re: Hidden Secrets of the Engine Assembly Fraternity?

Crab Spirits wrote:

I'll echo what others have said about shimming the oil pump relief valve spring. I've used a piece of .020" feeler gauge. Keeping the clearance big on the rod bearings is also good advice. When I throw some in my SHO motor, I'll probly just order the same size that is in it now. If your engine doesn't have piston oil squirters, another trick is grooving (or enlarging the grooves if they're already there) the side of the rod above the bearing area. This will allow oil to shoot up to the piston and help keep things cool. You can get a free oil cooler out of you A/C evaporator core (cleaned out!) coupled with a block fitting that has a .020" orifice. It'll really tie the room together.

The evap core idea is interesting....how do you make it work? What does the orifice do?

Jim "Endo" Anderton
30 years of racing and still not Brambilla.....

Re: Hidden Secrets of the Engine Assembly Fraternity?

jimeditorial wrote:
Crab Spirits wrote:

I'll echo what others have said about shimming the oil pump relief valve spring. I've used a piece of .020" feeler gauge. Keeping the clearance big on the rod bearings is also good advice. When I throw some in my SHO motor, I'll probly just order the same size that is in it now. If your engine doesn't have piston oil squirters, another trick is grooving (or enlarging the grooves if they're already there) the side of the rod above the bearing area. This will allow oil to shoot up to the piston and help keep things cool. You can get a free oil cooler out of you A/C evaporator core (cleaned out!) coupled with a block fitting that has a .020" orifice. It'll really tie the room together.

The evap core idea is interesting....how do you make it work? What does the orifice do?

Since it would be plumbed as a bypass cooler it would decrease the flow of hot soon to be cold oil back to the pan

El Capitan de los Bastardos De Lemons
1993 Linco Mark Ate
1957 Renault Dauphine
Driver with LemonSpeed's V6 Mustang

Re: Hidden Secrets of the Engine Assembly Fraternity?

So the orifice is to prevent pressure drop and/or slow the flow rate through the cooler? Do you plumb it with a filter adapter?

Jim "Endo" Anderton
30 years of racing and still not Brambilla.....

Re: Hidden Secrets of the Engine Assembly Fraternity?

This is great stuff, guys, please keep it coming.

One specific question. I was re-reading the factory manual last night and it recommends just using motor oil as the assembly lube. Better to follow that advice or to use something like Redline assy lube?

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.

Re: Hidden Secrets of the Engine Assembly Fraternity?

jimeditorial wrote:

So the orifice is to prevent pressure drop and/or slow the flow rate through the cooler? Do you plumb it with a filter adapter?

Yes. But you don't need a filter adapter. You can T it in with your sending unit, then weld a return bung to your sump. When you do this mod you have to pay attention to what height it's located in regards to the sump. Since you don't want your oil level to drop once the engine is started and your cooler fills up.

The Charnal House Geo MetSHO: Turning less laps than a regular Metro, the hard way!

1969 Subaru 360

Re: Hidden Secrets of the Engine Assembly Fraternity?

jimeditorial wrote:

So the orifice is to prevent pressure drop and/or slow the flow rate through the cooler? Do you plumb it with a filter adapter?

I guess you could use a super-fine bypass filter but those are more for long oil life than performance.   Any oil in the galleries has been filtered already by the mail filter.

El Capitan de los Bastardos De Lemons
1993 Linco Mark Ate
1957 Renault Dauphine
Driver with LemonSpeed's V6 Mustang

Re: Hidden Secrets of the Engine Assembly Fraternity?

Oh I get it.....you have essentially no pressure in the evap core, just enough to move the oil back to the pan. Nice. No need for pressure hoses, etc. A great idea....you're probably tossing the core anyway

Jim "Endo" Anderton
30 years of racing and still not Brambilla.....

Re: Hidden Secrets of the Engine Assembly Fraternity?

Mulry wrote:

This is great stuff, guys, please keep it coming.

One specific question. I was re-reading the factory manual last night and it recommends just using motor oil as the assembly lube. Better to follow that advice or to use something like Redline assy lube?

We have always raced on a hybrid motor I built.  Turns out a main bearing was put in upside down for the initial build.  It prevented the rod next to it from getting any oil.  We ran the whole Oct 08 race that way.

The motor seized just before the Feb 09 race in which we found the incorrectly installed main bearing.  So our rob bearing ran the whole first race on Royal Purple Assembly Lube!  That's a pretty good testament to the stuff.

Use a tread chaser on as much stuff as you can.  O'Reillys rents them.

I used Loctite on our rod and main bearings as well as head bolts.  This is great as long as you don't have to take the damn thing apart often cause you have to clean all the old stuff out each time.

Clean the hell out of as much stuff as you can.  Clean parts seem to be happier parts.  A pan of diesel and some brushes can go along way.

Once assembled you want to pre-lube the motor.  If you can't run the oil pump off a drill like a Ford or Chevy, disconnect the ignition and turn the motor over with the started to get things primed up.

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z

25 (edited by Spinnetti 2010-03-18 12:02 PM)

Re: Hidden Secrets of the Engine Assembly Fraternity?

Mulry wrote:

I'm fixing to get my crankshaft back from the machine shop that polished out all the damage we did to it when we blew our motor back at Yee Haw It's Lemons/Houston Fall 2009. I've fully disassembled the motor, cleaned up what needed to be cleaned up, scraped what could be scraped, and I'm going to soon be assembling the motor.

This will be the first time I've ever fully assembled a motor from start to finish.

I'm looking forward to the challenge, but I'd be lying if I didn't say that I'm a little intimidated by the process too. I've got the Toyota factory manual for my 4AGE and I read through it pretty thoroughly when I was doing the dis-assembly, so I think I have some idea what I'm getting myself into in putting it back together. Ha! Yeah, I'm self-delusional, too.

So, I want to get this motor back together such that it will run a couple races before it blows up again. Are there any great secrets that y'all are willing to share regarding getting it right other than to follow the instructions meticulously, use assembly lube, and keep everything clean? I'm just a little lost lamb here looking for a way out of the woods. Cheers.

I've raced this motor in more or less stock form for nearly 20 years. Its is a great motor (if not the most powerful) and it needs nothing other than this:
> Follow the manual
> Clean, clean clean... passages too if you can - little round wire brush etc.
> Watch out for the pipe plugs at the end of the oil galleries.. Had one come loose on my "real" race car... was very confusing to figure out (kept thinking it was the rear main).
> Put fresh rods and mains in it - they won't be stock sized due to the crank work
> Use plastigage to check clearances  - if off, go back to the store for the right bearings.
> Wouldn't hurt to sneak in a fresh oil & water pump and timing belt
> Make sure your valve lash is right.
> Toyota says no thread locker. Youv'e got lots of advice here, but I think we might be one of the few teams that hasn't had motor problems wink
> Use good synthetic oil. I like castrol or redline, but I'm sure most of them are ok. Don't use real thick oil - its just more friction.
> Dunno about increasing oil pressure. Based on what problem? I never have and never needed to.
> Engine already has a windage tray (I think the other poster meant oil traps not windage tray). I've never had oil starvation racing, so I think modifying the pan is a solution looking for a problem - basically the motor doesn't need any mods. Any you do will probably just shorten its life.

Thats it.

This motor does not respond to any kind of motor mods that you could possibly do in Lemons anyway, so not worth too much futzing about. Desmogged and nearly open exhaust will get you all of about 120hp, but with a light car, its enough for top 10 anyway.

"Don't mess with Lexas!" LS400. We survived another one! See website link for build details.
Maker of the "unofficial Lemons fish!" - If you ask nice, I'll likely give you one at the track.