1 Topic by MZAVARIN (edited by MZAVARIN 2022-06-05 01:22 PM)

  • From: Plymouth, MA
  • Registered: 2013-06-07
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Topic: Another Lemons class?

(and another thing, while its kind of "dead" at work....)
Any news if the rumor of a "D" class of cars for Lemons is true?  For truly bad cars that "auto" be in a class of their own...

Actually, I'd like to see a "Double Digit Horsepower" class in Lemons:
Bring whatever car you want with any engine in it, as long as the engine was rated at less than 100 HP out of the factory....and otherwise do anything you want to the car or the engine (swaps, turbos, suspension, whatever....)
---it would certainly make the playing field even and keep to the $500 spirit of Lemons....
----It would certainly be super entertaining to watch and super challenging to participate....
---I think I'd look for a Dodge Shadow (""Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow knows!"  ==== THEME...?too obscure??))
or a diesel VW.......what would you bring???!!!

Here is a list to pick from:

https://www.horsepowerspecs.com/100-hp-cars/page/3/

MarioKart Driving School: 1987 Honda Prelude Si (Opus #28) 
Loudon, NH 2014 - Millville, NJ, Lightening 2019 (RIP)
New and improved: 1987 Honda Prelude Si (Opus #11) Pittsburgh, PA 2021 - ??
and finally won something, Class C Win: Loudon, NH 2022

2 Reply by chaase (edited by chaase 2022-06-05 01:22 PM)

  • chaase
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Re: Another Lemons class?

Not sure we really need another class and I have not heard anything about a Class D.

There are plenty of cars under 100hp that do well. The SOHC Saturn cars do well in the hands of a good team. We got 20th overall in an SL1 at NHMS and 16th overall at NJMP Lightning in the same car in 2019.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C x2 and IOE winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner
  • Registered: 2011-10-14
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Re: Another Lemons class?

Thought Class D was for auto journalists.

  • Registered: 2014-11-11
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Re: Another Lemons class?

At Thunderhill it felt like a big class reshuffling happened.  Lots of teams that have typically been B teams were in C, including us.  We talked our way into C and thought we had pulled a fast one (though to be fair in 15 or so races we haven't finished well enough to win C so it's not like we belonged B).  We knew we were going to DOMINATE and found that most of the B pack was there with us.  Made me wonder about another class too.

I heard someone there say that the organizers had felt that the B class had been to big at recent California races so they were trying something different.

  • Type44
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Re: Another Lemons class?

ukemike wrote:

At Thunderhill it felt like a big class reshuffling happened.  Lots of teams that have typically been B teams were in C, including us.  We talked our way into C and thought we had pulled a fast one (though to be fair in 15 or so races we haven't finished well enough to win C so it's not like we belonged B).  We knew we were going to DOMINATE and found that most of the B pack was there with us.  Made me wonder about another class too.

I heard someone there say that the organizers had felt that the B class had been to big at recent California races so they were trying something different.

Agreed! We were psyched to end up in C, until we found the above situation. Seemed like everything was C.

I guess it’s kinda relative… I think of Borgwards, Hyundai’s, Humbers as C, but these days, our 200 hp Passat is that.

In past years, it seemed like
A= potential winners on laps,
B=cars that will probably finish, short on power or handling compared to A
C=what the heck is that doing on a race track?

Thunderhill looked like
A= seriously prepped Miatas and BMWs
B=stockish BMWs and Miatas
C=everything else

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6 Reply by chaase (edited by chaase 2022-06-13 12:11 PM)

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Re: Another Lemons class?

Type44 wrote:
ukemike wrote:

At Thunderhill it felt like a big class reshuffling happened.  Lots of teams that have typically been B teams were in C, including us.  We talked our way into C and thought we had pulled a fast one (though to be fair in 15 or so races we haven't finished well enough to win C so it's not like we belonged B).  We knew we were going to DOMINATE and found that most of the B pack was there with us.  Made me wonder about another class too.

I heard someone there say that the organizers had felt that the B class had been to big at recent California races so they were trying something different.

Agreed! We were psyched to end up in C, until we found the above situation. Seemed like everything was C.

I guess it’s kinda relative… I think of Borgwards, Hyundai’s, Humbers as C, but these days, our 200 hp Passat is that.

In past years, it seemed like
A= potential winners on laps,
B=cars that will probably finish, short on power or handling compared to A
C=what the heck is that doing on a race track?

This is how I try to class cars but every judge does things a little differently.

I am more traditional but if I end up in a non-familiar region I try to stay somewhat consistent with past classing.
A = Has a chance to win
B = Has a chance to finish
C = No chance

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C x2 and IOE winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

7 Reply by Jimmy (edited by Jimmy 2022-06-13 12:17 PM)

  • Jimmy
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Re: Another Lemons class?

[I am more traditional but if I end up in a non-familiar region I try to stay somewhat consistent with past classing.
A = Has a chance to win
B = Has a chance to finish
C = No chance



Nailed it

Cordoba
  • From: Chicago-ish
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Re: Another Lemons class?

Jimmy wrote:

[I am more traditional but if I end up in a non-familiar region I try to stay somewhat consistent with past classing.
A = Has a chance to win
B = Has a chance to finish
C = No chance



Nailed it

This is the way. Don't get used to 40-car Class C fields on the West Coast.

Eric Rood
Everything Bagel, 24 Hours of Lemons
eric@24hoursoflemons.com

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  • From: Seattle, WA
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Re: Another Lemons class?

There's always the Class A-Z model:

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7gYNb3GSh4M/R1DPHPUMogI/AAAAAAAACLo/L36mvheQ_Jw/s1600-R/shel5.jpeg

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP, Organizer's Choice 2022 Hell on Wheels California Rally
  • From: Cleveland, OH
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Re: Another Lemons class?

ukemike wrote:

At Thunderhill it felt like a big class reshuffling happened.  Lots of teams that have typically been B teams were in C, including us.  We talked our way into C and thought we had pulled a fast one (though to be fair in 15 or so races we haven't finished well enough to win C so it's not like we belonged B).  We knew we were going to DOMINATE and found that most of the B pack was there with us.  Made me wonder about another class too.

I heard someone there say that the organizers had felt that the B class had been to big at recent California races so they were trying something different.

B IS getting too big. Or rather too Catch all. I know in the "Not East Coast, but not technically Mid-West" area B class ends up in the top 10 regularly. It's basically for A class teams driving anything that isn't a BMW or Miata at the top, all the way down to "Not Cool Enough to be C-Class" at the bottom.

Most of B-class has no hope of catching "real" B-Class which is basically a response to stagnation in the A-Class. Good team is sick of almost winning in A or Nukes their Miata/E30 hard, then comes back with their full A class skills and child labor crew in a Volvo, Fox-body, or G-body and continues to place as well as they did when they were in A-class.

I mean my team doesn't care because we're happy if the car is still working and we're approximately in the middle, by the time they all pack up while I'm half way through the final stint. But, Normies really have zero hope of winning B anymore.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
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11 Reply by chaase (edited by chaase 2022-06-14 07:04 AM)

  • chaase
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Re: Another Lemons class?

Guildenstern wrote:

B IS getting too big. Or rather too Catch all. I know in the "Not East Coast, but not technically Mid-West" area B class ends up in the top 10 regularly. It's basically for A class teams driving anything that isn't a BMW or Miata at the top, all the way down to "Not Cool Enough to be C-Class" at the bottom.

Most of B-class has no hope of catching "real" B-Class which is basically a response to stagnation in the A-Class. Good team is sick of almost winning in A or Nukes their Miata/E30 hard, then comes back with their full A class skills and child labor crew in a Volvo, Fox-body, or G-body and continues to place as well as they did when they were in A-class.

I mean my team doesn't care because we're happy if the car is still working and we're approximately in the middle, by the time they all pack up while I'm half way through the final stint. But, Normies really have zero hope of winning B anymore.

I can understand the frustration. On the east coast, the fields are so large we have challenges.  If B cars are regularly in the top 10, they should be moved into Class A. My personal opinion is that there shouldn't be a Class B car in the top 15 but even then that can be problematic since we can do that in a Saturn but they could never, ever win A.

At New Hampshire, we had 110 cars. There were 45 in A, 46 in B and 19 in C.  We have a really good set of drivers in a well sorted Saturn with a big fuel cell. We basically ran a perfect race. The only black flag was w/1hr left when it was too late to matter as we were down 16 laps and they were still going. We ran long stints and managed to hit 15th overall and we still came in second in B. I am not mad because it was to a very explodey Fiero that finally didn't explode for once. I am happy for them since they have suffered in that car for many, many years.

We just ran NJMP and only had 1 black flag not until sometime Sunday and were still 16th overall and were like 3rd of 4th in B.

Our options are to continue along this path or try to make the Saturn faster (which has its own challenges and costs or build something  else which costs a lot of money and a lot of time.

Is adding a 4th class the answer? I don't know, It may be doable at the races where there are 100+ cars but not at the smaller races.

The other thing to remember is that class wins are the least important part of the Lemons race. The goal is to have fun and drive a terrible car on a race track with your friends.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C x2 and IOE winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

12 Reply by Lemon_Newton-Metre (edited by Lemon_Newton-Metre 2022-06-14 08:13 AM)

  • From: Elverson, PA
  • Registered: 2017-08-15
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Re: Another Lemons class?

BLUF (Bottom Line Up Front):

1. The IOE is the Grand Prize of Lemons. It also has the greatest monetary value.

2. I think this also:

chaase wrote:

[snip]
The other thing to remember is that class wins are the least important part of the Lemons race. The goal is to have fun and drive a terrible car on a race track with your friends.

3. No matter how many race cars are put on a Lemons track, there's only ONE which turns the most laps during the time allotted; everybody else is _not_ the "Winner", according to how a "Winner" is usually defined - though Lemons isn't "usual" by any definition.

4. Le Mans 2022 had 62 entrants, and 6 class subdivisions (see below). But there's very specific technical regulations about those classes, and that's not present here.

5. The English alphabet has 26 characters.

Everybody in Lemons can be top-10, depending on how many characters are used, and how the field is parsed.

I suggest - as an alternative - for those concerned about classes:

1. Class cars based on their best lap time, not the subjective BS inspection.

2. THEN,  keeping the spirit of Lemons, add/subtract the BS laps.

3. Another metric could be the best average lap time (under "Green Flag" conditions).

4. 'Most time on track' can be its own class.

I define "Winning" (for myself) in this Lemons context to be:
1. actually getting a car to pass tech, then,
2. to take the checkered flag, then,
3. to rinse and repeat, increasing 'time on track' in the process.

I'm not in the least concerned about class wins. But that's just me.

Detail:
Le Mans 2022 had 62 entrants, and 6 class subdivisions; there were 4 different listed classes (with an additional subdivision of 2 of those classes) ; the mean average is ~10 vehicles per class subdivision (/6):

Hypercar (H) - 2 entries
Hypercar -   - 3
LM P2 -       - 18
LM P2 (P/A) -   9

LM GTE Pro -  7
LM GTE AM -  23

  • From: Seattle, WA
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Re: Another Lemons class?

Lemon_Newton-Metre wrote:

Hypercar (H)
Hypercar
LM P2
LM P2 (P/A)
LM GTE Pro
LM GTE AM

I'd be okay with setting aside A, B, and C for one race and letting the judges arbitrarily assign cars to these six classes instead. This would mean making and shipping more trophies, though, so my guess is it's not likely to happen. It would probably somehow lead to more threats of legal action from the Automobile Club de l'Ouest, too.

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP, Organizer's Choice 2022 Hell on Wheels California Rally
  • From: Elverson, PA
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Re: Another Lemons class?

mharrell wrote:

[snip] ... more threats of legal action from the Automobile Club de l'Ouest, too.

More? I didn't know there had been any.

Regardless:
I suggest each team can bring a small box of parts taken off their racecar while it was being prepared, which can be welded into a trophy for the team to take home after the race. I'll even bring an engraver if asked. I'm sure someone will have a welder at the track, right?

And if there _weren't_ any parts taken off the racecar, maybe a box of ribbons for the rest of us...

;-)

  • From: Seattle, WA
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Re: Another Lemons class?

Lemon_Newton-Metre wrote:
mharrell wrote:

[snip] ... more threats of legal action from the Automobile Club de l'Ouest, too.

More? I didn't know there had been any.

From what I understand it was all very politely phrased but this is nonetheless why Lemons restyled its name to eliminate the minuscule "e" followed by the majuscule "M" and to eliminate the smaller "E" in the all-caps variant. Apparently this became an urgent concern for the ACO upon the expansion of Lemons into non-US markets, which is to say Australia and New Zealand.

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP, Organizer's Choice 2022 Hell on Wheels California Rally
  • From: Chicago-ish
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Re: Another Lemons class?

mharrell wrote:
Lemon_Newton-Metre wrote:
mharrell wrote:

[snip] ... more threats of legal action from the Automobile Club de l'Ouest, too.

More? I didn't know there had been any.

From what I understand it was all very politely phrased but this is nonetheless why Lemons restyled its name to eliminate the minuscule "e" followed by the majuscule "M" and to eliminate the smaller "E" in the all-caps variant. Apparently this became an urgent concern for the ACO upon the expansion of Lemons into non-US markets, which is to say Australia and New Zealand.

That's more or less it. The French don't find American jokes—possibly any jokes—funny. As a result, any new international editions of Lemons must include approval and partnership with (I think?) the ACO. And nothing screams "Fun with racing" like the Automobile Club de l'Ouest.

To wit: It's unlikely Lemons will ever expand internationally.

Eric Rood
Everything Bagel, 24 Hours of Lemons
eric@24hoursoflemons.com

therood's Website

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Re: Another Lemons class?

therood wrote:

And nothing screams "Fun with racing" like the Automobile Club de l'Ouest.

Now there's a theme waiting to happen. Done properly, everyone on the team will be hoarse by early Saturday afternoon.

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP, Organizer's Choice 2022 Hell on Wheels California Rally
  • From: Queens, NY
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Re: Another Lemons class?

Well at NJMP they added YT class, guess tubers have a class of their own. Curious how many subscribers required to be in that class... I got 134

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19 Reply by Guildenstern (edited by Guildenstern 2022-06-14 06:50 PM)

  • From: Cleveland, OH
  • Registered: 2011-09-03
  • Posts: 2,227

Re: Another Lemons class?

If Youtubers didn't get a class, they would either never win, or have so many BS look at my numburz pity sponsorships from lame companies like Peak trying to act relevant, that they would win on laps.

And to be fair, Pro Youtubers, like autojournalists need their own participation trophy class so that they don't Tryhard right into t-boning someone like Jalopnik did at Mid-Ohio.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

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  • Registered: 2013-07-24
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Re: Another Lemons class?

MZAVARIN wrote:

Actually, I'd like to see a "Double Digit Horsepower" class in Lemons:
Bring whatever car you want with any engine in it, as long as the engine was rated at less than 100 HP out of the factory..

Iron Duke class. Everything is allowed, but has to be Duked up.

Miata? Sure.
E30? Sure.
C6 Vette? Sure.

-Robert, Party Sheep Racing
The Jerry Lundegaard GMAC Financing Award, Joliet 2013 [Cutlass Ciera w/ Iron Duke]
Eta E30: IL Fall '15, MI Spring '16, IL Summer '16, MI Spring '17, KY '17, MI Summer '21, KY '21, MI Summer '21, MI Fall '22
  • From: Cleveland, OH
  • Registered: 2011-09-03
  • Posts: 2,227

Re: Another Lemons class?

I believe that's just Class C.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Guildenstern's Website

  • From: Tustin, CA
  • Registered: 2010-12-30
  • Posts: 3,275

Re: Another Lemons class?

therood wrote:
mharrell wrote:
Lemon_Newton-Metre wrote:

More? I didn't know there had been any.

From what I understand it was all very politely phrased but this is nonetheless why Lemons restyled its name to eliminate the minuscule "e" followed by the majuscule "M" and to eliminate the smaller "E" in the all-caps variant. Apparently this became an urgent concern for the ACO upon the expansion of Lemons into non-US markets, which is to say Australia and New Zealand.

That's more or less it. The French don't find American jokes—possibly any jokes—funny. As a result, any new international editions of Lemons must include approval and partnership with (I think?) the ACO. And nothing screams "Fun with racing" like the Automobile Club de l'Ouest.

To wit: It's unlikely Lemons will ever expand internationally.

You'll also note that if you capitalize the "M" in Lemons, the forum autocorrects it to a lower case m.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)
  • From: Elverson, PA
  • Registered: 2017-08-15
  • Posts: 1,130

Re: Another Lemons class?

SwarlesInCharge wrote:
MZAVARIN wrote:

Actually, I'd like to see a "Double Digit Horsepower" class in Lemons:
Bring whatever car you want with any engine in it, as long as the engine was rated at less than 100 HP out of the factory..

Iron Duke class. Everything is allowed, but has to be Duked up.

Miata? Sure.
E30? Sure.
C6 Vette? Sure.

Duke & Diesel class

  • From: Fort Bragg, NC
  • Registered: 2017-02-01
  • Posts: 303

Re: Another Lemons class?

IOE is my class of choice... Them other beady-eyed racers ain't gittin' any more or less track time than I git in a weekend. 

I judge success by improving my lap times, keeping the car together, and most importantly - Having Fun!!
(and not being a douche bag...)

Off-Kilter Racing
'62 Plymouth Valiant "ToadRacer" - Organizer's Choice, IOE...
'86 Toyota MR2 (needs engine)
  • Registered: 2013-11-15
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Re: Another Lemons class?

Nothing is wrong with making your own race within a race.  Make your own classes with your own trophies.

I don't see Jay changing the A, B & C classing that has worked for over a decade.

Team whatever_racecar #745 Volvo wagon