Topic: Completely new guy

Don't know if posting in right place
Just bought a old 350z for Lemons
Have cleared check and bill of sell so 100% no argument  its a $500 car.
What's a good tire 17" wheels?
How do you figure seat rental cost? Have nothing to go off since all new to this
Thanks

Re: Completely new guy

Also based in Kansas so travel expenses going to add to overhead

Re: Completely new guy

https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEDWKZF

Re: Completely new guy

Well, first thing I would do is strip off all those decals.  You can wave your $500 check copy all you want but that's a professionally built race car from a professional race series that had factory support. Decals just scream "I was a $60k racecar back in the day".  Yeah, it's a decade old but it's likely far advanced than anything currently in the series.  Having said all that, you'll have no problem entering it and racing it.  Regardless of paperwork you have, that thing will be buried in penalty laps for it's first few races until you show that your skills don't match the cars'.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

5 (edited by squidrope 2022-09-25 07:05 PM)

Re: Completely new guy

As a previous poster said.  You're going to hit with a ton of penalty laps regardless of your "documentation".   Seat rental is a tricky thing to figure out.   Most teams in my opinion undercharge what the true costs are.  We run a reliable top 10 car, and expenses work out to be about 2k per driver (3 drivers).  There are so many hidden costs and that's why I think A&D is a deal if you find a team that has a reliable car.  Harnesses expire, fire suppression recharge every 2 years, fuel cell foam deteriorates, wear and tear on non-consumables, car upgrades, etc.

"We Got Screwed" NHMS 2017, 4th NHMS 2020,  4th NJMP 2021,
"Judges Choice" NHMS 2021,10th NJMP 2022, 3rd Thompson 2022
#847 Batmobile  aka-"Beulah"  search Squidrope Racing on Facebook

Re: Completely new guy

Lots of car I seen have a old-school  paint theme to look like a popular  car back in the day
I don't see how you could have any penalties  for something  that is a 100% true $500 car cleared bank check don't lie and or notarized  bill of sale.

Re: Completely new guy

Just cuz you don't "see it" doesn't mean it won't happen. The Judges have a great amount of leeway and can pretty much do whatever they feel fit to do.  Based on my experience you will receive a bunch of laps for that car.  But I'm not a Lemons Judge, and I am wrong a lot.  I wish you the best, and welcome you to Lemons.

"We Got Screwed" NHMS 2017, 4th NHMS 2020,  4th NJMP 2021,
"Judges Choice" NHMS 2021,10th NJMP 2022, 3rd Thompson 2022
#847 Batmobile  aka-"Beulah"  search Squidrope Racing on Facebook

Re: Completely new guy

Yokohama's are the preferred tire for the 24 Hours of Lemons.

"We Got Screwed" NHMS 2017, 4th NHMS 2020,  4th NJMP 2021,
"Judges Choice" NHMS 2021,10th NJMP 2022, 3rd Thompson 2022
#847 Batmobile  aka-"Beulah"  search Squidrope Racing on Facebook

Re: Completely new guy

350z wrote:

Lots of car I seen have a old-school  paint theme to look like a popular  car back in the day
I don't see how you could have any penalties  for something  that is a 100% true $500 car cleared bank check don't lie and or notarized  bill of sale.

GLWT.

Here's where in the rulebook your whole story collapses into a house of cards.

4.1.1     Lame-Ass Rationalizations: Cars that “should be” worth $500 don’t count

4.4    BS Factor: To prevent cheating, all cars will be inspected by a panel appointed by the Organizers. At that time, all teams will be given an opportunity to describe the car’s purchase and prep. If the panel believes the limit set out in Rule 4.1 has been exceeded, it will assign a Bullshit Factor (BSF) equal to one BSF per $10 above the limit. The entry will be docked one lap for each BSF assigned. (Ten dollars = one BSF = one lap.) 

4.4.1     Appeal of BSF Panel Decisions. Get real. There’s no appealing this decision. You’re boned.

Look dude, I've been doing this a long long time.  For example I had already been doing this for a number of years when we bought a stock E46 328 that was 200k miles right off this very forum for $500 and it got penalty laps.  You're not the first one who thought they could sneak a Pro level racecar past the judges without penalty laps.  Enter your car, take your lumps and go have fun.  You won't win.  You just won't.  You can choose between having fun no matter what or get all wound up when you get penalty laps with that car.  It's your call.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

Re: Completely new guy

350z wrote:

Lots of car I seen have a old-school  paint theme to look like a popular  car back in the day
I don't see how you could have any penalties  for something  that is a 100% true $500 car cleared bank check don't lie and or notarized  bill of sale.

I'm going to suggest you spend some time reviewing this forum, and the Rules. I lurked for a year and a half before registering for my first post.

The below two Rules, and the multitude of threads regarding them, will be informative.

There is also the "spirit of Lemons" to consider. 

The line at the bottom of Rule 4.1.2 is key in most of the threads speculating about the "last real purchase":

"4.1.2     Lame-Ass Rationalizations About Parts: Same deal. “Free” parts, parts given to you by your buddies, parts left lying around the shop…that crap doesn’t impress us. It’s worth whatever the last real guy paid in the last real purchase. Don’t think you’re clever."

You may have to show, for example, (and I'm just speculating here) an advertised listing of the goods sold for the $500 you have a receipt that says you paid, which gave others the opportunity to purchase at the same time as you.

Other considerations or benefits associated with a transaction can have a value set for them, which can be calculated as part of the purchase price of an item, even if not on a receipt; you may want to check with a lawyer on that, but that's my understanding.

And saving the best for last, you should be aware of this Rule:

"1.4    Claiming Race: At the end of the competition, the Organizers—and nobody else, you lazy, better-car-wantin’ bastids—may elect to purchase any vehicle from its owner(s) for $500. In 80 races and counting, we’ve claimed cars precisely twice. Don’t piss us off so much that we raise that to three."

It's clear the organizers don't want to claim another vehicle, but that is part of the deal of entering.

As mentioned above, you shouldn't have a problem entering it or racing.

But the B.S. inspection is subjective. In one of your previous posts  you had indicated "C" as if you feel the car should be in class "C" in Lemons. And it may be. But there also may be penalty laps assigned according to perceived value, so a class 'win' may be challenging.

So if you get "A" class with some 'bazillion' laps your first race, please remember the last sentence of Rule 1.4, and go have a ton of fun.

In Lemons, the I.O.E is the grand prize. Everything else is second place at best (my opinion).

Re: Completely new guy

Let me note:

each of 350z's first posts in each subheading specifically asked about seat rental estimation help - nothing else.

There's additional information about safety equipment, but that may be merely to indicate the car would be eligible for, and can likely run in Lemons so that he can sell seat time in a HOT car at a Lemons race.

Re: Completely new guy

Most ex-Race cars wont meet Lemons fairly stringent safety checks. I would like to see some more pics of the cage and seat to help you before you run full steam into a Lemons race. By the spirit of the rule vs" I have a cancelled check" there is a grey area that, in the interest of fairness is used to keep a balanced race for all. The boys on the forum can give you a lot of info.
I am a part time judge
Manny

Re: Completely new guy

Cage is 1.75 120 wall tig welded
2,900lbs car
Full FIA nets
6 point FIA belts
FiA carbon road race seat
Cool box
FIA fire ext. With nozzles in engine and drivers compartment  and on ATL SFI bladder cell

Re: Completely new guy

cool car, but I expect you will take some laps for sure. If you just want to go race then don't worry about it. (that's what we do) If you are concerned about winning then that's probably not the car to do it in,  unless you yank the 3.5lV6 and jam some sort of junky engine in it.

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: Completely new guy

All good stuff, But design is key. Pics would help. The most common fail I see is floor plate sizing and location.

16 (edited by chaase 2022-09-26 07:24 AM)

Re: Completely new guy

350z wrote:

Lots of car I seen have a old-school  paint theme to look like a popular  car back in the day
I don't see how you could have any penalties  for something  that is a 100% true $500 car cleared bank check don't lie and or notarized  bill of sale.

A check doesn't lie but Lemons doesn't know if you handed the guy cash to go with that check. All notarization means is that the two people that signed the document, are who they say they are, not that the contents of the document are true.

I would need to see that car to decide but there was a 350z when I was judging at NCM and CMP and it has been given laps in the past and If I remember correctly, a lot of them. The number has come down but they still get them. Just because the car was sold for $500.00 doesn't mean it is WORTH $500.00. The bill of sale and checks don't mean anything. Just because someone is willing to sell you something cheaply doesn't mean that its value. A fully caged car is worth thousands of dollars, claiming only to have spent $500.00 isn't going to matter because it is worth way more than that. On top of that, if there are probably cheaty suspension parts, engine work, custom ECU, etc.

This stuff alone is worth  ~$10k new
Cage is 1.75 120 wall tig welded
Full FIA nets
6 point FIA belts
FiA carbon road race seat
Cool box
FIA fire ext. With nozzles in engine and drivers compartment  and on ATL SFI bladder cell

While those are budget exempt, no one is spending that much on a car and leaving the original, worn out OEM suspension parts and engine alone.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

Re: Completely new guy

Car is pretty much all factory reason I bought can go to nissan  dealer and buy everything  off the shelf.
This is legit  $500 car with proof.   I looked at used Lemons raced cars but was all way out my price range  was like $5,000 ad said was zero penalty  lap $500 cars but don't know how that could be and asking $5,000 for it.  Was no way I could look at judge and lie and say yep its $500 knowing  I paid $5,000. 
Can buy them old Z for under a grand all day then sell off none race stuff then with all exempt  stuff on Lemons Have a $500 car like one I bought  just be new not old and used

Re: Completely new guy

Mr Yuck.  I had multiple  people  including  guy bought it from to put a v8 nissan  pickup motor in it.
And some say some other nissan  but think was a inline motor.  Not up on nissan motors

19 (edited by chaase 2022-09-26 08:12 AM)

Re: Completely new guy

350z wrote:

Car is pretty much all factory reason I bought can go to nissan  dealer and buy everything  off the shelf.
This is legit  $500 car with proof.   I looked at used Lemons raced cars but was all way out my price range  was like $5,000 ad said was zero penalty  lap $500 cars but don't know how that could be and asking $5,000 for it.  Was no way I could look at judge and lie and say yep its $500 knowing  I paid $5,000. 
Can buy them old Z for under a grand all day then sell off none race stuff then with all exempt  stuff on Lemons Have a $500 car like one I bought  just be new not old and used

I don't think you understand how the cost rules work. The cage, seat, belts and such don't count in the $500.00 limit. When you pay $5000.00 for a pre-raced Lemons car, you are paying $500.00 for the car, and $4500.00 for the safety equipment. The safety equipment doesn't count. All the judges know what it costs to build a car. The tubing for the cage alone costs more than $500.0. it's impossible to build a Lemons legal car for $500.00. We all know this is true. The cheapest we ever built a car was $2500.00 and that was when steel was cheap, fire suppression system wasn't required and the cages weren't as complicated. The base car needs to be around $500.00.

I'd rather buy a pre-raced Lemons car from a known team than a random car use in another race series. Cages are normally not up to Lemons spec. I'd have to see detailed pictures to know if it will pass Lemons spec.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

Re: Completely new guy

Chase
  I didn't  know that
Since says your labor is free but pay someone  it goes  into cost of the $500 car.
The exempt  stuff don't count then now way anyone could say not a $500 car
A 20yr old striped none running  350Z can be bought for $500 all day long  even in today's stupid  market
Figured being a Z that's not the best car for a race car.  Heavy and nose heavy both then brand new team with zero Lemons experience  and true $500 car and Nicole and dime deal be in C class. And totally  ok with being a C class car/team

21 (edited by chaase 2022-09-26 08:55 AM)

Re: Completely new guy

350z wrote:

Chase
  I didn't  know that
Since says your labor is free but pay someone  it goes  into cost of the $500 car.
The exempt  stuff don't count then now way anyone could say not a $500 car
A 20yr old striped none running  350Z can be bought for $500 all day long  even in today's stupid  market
Figured being a Z that's not the best car for a race car.  Heavy and nose heavy both then brand new team with zero Lemons experience  and true $500 car and Nicole and dime deal be in C class. And totally  ok with being a C class car/team

The people on this forum, including myself, are trying to be nice and help you and set your expectations for this car. It will be class A and it will likely get laps.. I've judged and classed cars for 7 Lemons races and have never seen a $500.00 350z. The 350z that I have seen, were all Class A and were given a lot of laps when they first started racing. I've checked locally and the cheapest, non-running 350z I can find is over $1500.00 and it would need a fair amount of money to make it run.

i've said my peace so I am not going to comment any further...good luck.

Chris

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

Re: Completely new guy

I will have all paper work and documents and recording everything
If given even 1 penalty  lap will be on phone with lawyer  and will be loading up and taking to court and will have no problem  spending what it takes to win. 
Like you said even at $1500 and sell everything  not needed could have it for $500 easy and be 100% in budget.

Re: Completely new guy

350z wrote:

If given even 1 penalty  lap will be on phone with lawyer  and will be loading up and taking to court.........

Let me know how that works out for ya......: big_smile

From the 'rule book'..
    1.1    Organizers Decisions: Organizers’ decisions are final. If you don’t like it, tough. Get your own race.
...

40+x Loser.....You'd think I would learn......
5x I.O.E  Winner   1 Heroic Fix Winner   1 Org Choice Winner
2x  I Got Screwed Winner    2x Class C Winner
(Still a Class B driver in a Class A car)

Re: Completely new guy

Big bird. 

That's worth about as much as paper it's on

Re: Completely new guy

350z wrote:

I will have all paper work and documents and recording everything
If given even 1 penalty  lap will be on phone with lawyer  and will be loading up and taking to court and will have no problem  spending what it takes to win. 
Like you said even at $1500 and sell everything  not needed could have it for $500 easy and be 100% in budget.

Everyone here is trying to gently educate you on how it works in Lemons and unfortunately you are not getting it.  With all due respect, trying to introduce lawyers into this will not go well.  The 2nd rule spells this out. 

1.1    Organizers Decisions: Organizers’ decisions are final. If you don’t like it, tough. Get your own race.

I think you are missing the entire intent of Lemons.  The $500 rule is not the final arbiter by any means.  If it was, we wouldn't have a Rolls Royce with a Viper engine appearing in a race that only allows $500 cars.  We would have had not 1 but 2 Porsche 911s.  Why are those cars allowed because they are clearly not $500 cars?  Because the Rolls is a 50 year old luxury car that shouldn't be on a race track.
Why the Porsches?  Because one has a diesel 4cyl and the other has an original style VW bug engine making 40hp.  Because it's funny to see cars that are marginally fit as race cars racing.  What misses the entire intent is a former Grand-Am/IMSA race car like the one that is in the picture you posted. 

But missing the intent does not prevent you from racing.  You are free to enter that car.  You could enter a Ferrari 430 if you wanted.  But doing so comes with the possibility of penalty laps to equalize the field.  And as others have said, A 350z normally gets penalty laps.  That 350z that you posted is a former race car from a professional racing series that had factory backing. 

This is not really what the organizers have in mind.

https://images4.imagebam.com/d1/33/7b/MEDWKZF_o.jpg

What I see is a car that is perfectly suited for a series like the WRL or AER, not Lemons.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)