1 (edited by largest-farva 2023-06-11 12:54 PM)

Topic: "old hillclimb car FREE!!!" - '78 Fiesta + Honda V-4 swap

Hello, Lemons forums.

https://i.imgur.com/VPGsrKF.jpg

This thing sat on craigslist for too long.

"Smells Like AMC Spirit" 2023 or bust.

It had fewer parts than in the picture, but it rolled! No engine, but four heads, a fuel system, and an exhaust manifold in the trunk, so that's basically two engines worth of engine.

Inside it was moss and mold above the belt line, part jumble below, with a greasy bolt soup substrate that gave it a good sloshing quality.

FR and RL springs were installed, but FL and RR were in the trunk for some reason.

Rather than finding the remaining ford 1600 parts, or doing a known-good swap, we've instead opted for one truckload of third-hand motorcycle parts from some guy who runs retired police cruisers in his funeral escort service, until their rattles become too irreverent for that line of work. When we went to pull  this stuff out of his yard, we learned the "good' motor was filled with rain water from a hole smashed in the valve cover, and that it "probably had a slight knock". The "bad" motor had been a donor at a shop where they'd put the bad parts back on after taking the better ones off. No other info offered other than than a "do NOT start" post-it.


https://i.imgur.com/qQr5r3x.png

So far so good. This thread is for build updates.

Re: "old hillclimb car FREE!!!" - '78 Fiesta + Honda V-4 swap

Nice...sounds like a horribly awesome idea.  Need more build posts.

3 (edited by largest-farva 2023-05-05 11:57 AM)

Re: "old hillclimb car FREE!!!" - '78 Fiesta + Honda V-4 swap

bspeed wrote:

Nice...sounds like a horribly awesome idea.  Need more build posts.

It will take a few posts to get the build thread caught up to where things are at today.

So, how bad is this knock? Just run the motor and find out, right?

https://i.imgur.com/QIxC89x.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/PgMhLb8.jpg
Bolt some stuff on to get it off the ground.

https://i.imgur.com/GBWhrDE.jpg
Figure out the ECU wiring. Shove paperclips into holes until it thinks the sidestand is up, the ignition is on, and the bike is not tipped over.
https://i.imgur.com/RjWAnyU.png
Nasty.

After shoving the final paperclip in, the fuel pump came on. It cranked, but nothing.
Back to the wiring diagram.
https://i.imgur.com/12QTFFT.png
(internal screaming)

Double, triple check everything, still nothing.

Eventually I measured the current through the ECU fuse, it was 0mA.

Dead ECU.

Maybe I killed it? Maybe there was no way that pile of parts was going to have a good ECU in the first place? Who wants to use a stock ECU anyways?

https://i.imgur.com/gr3WpnN.jpg
Most of the wiring harness was dead weight, so I replenished my scrap wire supply.

https://i.imgur.com/HlXxbfp.png
Why spend $15 on IGBTs when there are perfectly good ones in the dead ECU. Fork-em over.

https://i.imgur.com/RlRD90Z.jpg
Much better.

https://i.imgur.com/udVgpG8.png
The car is orange, the door cards are orange, the seats are orange, the Speeduino board I ordered also happened to be orange, and the most plentiful color in my new scrap wire heap was orange, so I put it in an orange box. Detracting from the orangeness of this car would be bad luck, I think.

4 (edited by largest-farva 2023-05-05 04:34 PM)

Re: "old hillclimb car FREE!!!" - '78 Fiesta + Honda V-4 swap

Unsurprisingly, the Speeduino firmware did not have a mode for Honda ST1300 timing wheels.
The crank wheel has 12 evenly spaced teeth. The cam wheel has teeth at 0, 180, and 330.

https://i.imgur.com/vis0GDs.png

In hindsight, I should have just shaved two of the teeth off the cam wheel and used Speeduino's generic "two wheel" decoder settings, but I'm an idiot so I coded a new decoder for the ST1300's timing wheels.

https://i.imgur.com/8pSowCX.png
It took a while to get it right.

https://i.imgur.com/ltQ3IkY.jpg

This is a test setup that doesn't involve setting anything on fire. The blue cable is the ECU, the silver cable goes to a $10 8 channel probe, and the headphone jack is wired into the analog inputs for cank and cam wheels.

https://i.imgur.com/fVVx84W.png
Top-left: playing a waveform that's close enough to what the processed decoder wheel signals look like.
Bottom-left: Traces of spark and injector channels, very wrong.
Right: ECU outputs.

Eventually though, it ran!
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ … 154144.mp4

And it knocks like a mofo. No matter, there's still the "bad" motor.

Re: "old hillclimb car FREE!!!" - '78 Fiesta + Honda V-4 swap

The original idea for attaching the engine to the wheels was to get a rear differential from the junk yard and mount it next to the longitudinally mounted engine, like this.

https://i.imgur.com/kb5feO1.png

Even if that didn't mean running an axle through the sump, it was still a clearance nightmare.

https://i.imgur.com/DxK33Ac.jpg

So instead we decided to mount it transverse with the car's original transaxle.

https://i.imgur.com/3s8DJ8v.jpg

That orientation leaves plenty of room for the passenger side axle.

https://i.imgur.com/iwGUW1a.jpg

Re: "old hillclimb car FREE!!!" - '78 Fiesta + Honda V-4 swap

Where's the f'in subscribe button?!

That guy

Re: "old hillclimb car FREE!!!" - '78 Fiesta + Honda V-4 swap

What's inside engine #2?

A completely smoked clutch.
https://i.imgur.com/DMZxxKn.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/wczjz6D.jpg

Also, the coolant pipe in the vee had been leaking.

The cylinder walls look good on this one.

Was the bad engine actually the good engine all along?

Re: "old hillclimb car FREE!!!" - '78 Fiesta + Honda V-4 swap

Wondering why there are ten pounds of gears between the crank and the... alternator?
For what reason?

(look in the manual) "Oh... oh."

https://i.imgur.com/woIqBPC.png
Calm down, Honda. Damn.

Transmission sure comes out easily though.
https://i.imgur.com/kd9KshK.png

Re: "old hillclimb car FREE!!!" - '78 Fiesta + Honda V-4 swap

Getting things lined up.

https://i.imgur.com/8p5RGTr.png

Blue: Engine rear case gasket.
Red: Fiesta lower transmission mount.
Purple: New parts.
Green: U-Joint / Engine output shaft.

Re: "old hillclimb car FREE!!!" - '78 Fiesta + Honda V-4 swap

A couple of things come to mind in this.

1.  This is awesome.
2.  From experience with motorcycle engined cars with OE clutch (Toyohog), the clutch is gonna be your weak point.  Bring lots of spares.
3.  This might be the biggie.  Most motorcycle engines turn counter clockwise and the Kent turns clockwise.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

11 (edited by fleming95 2023-05-08 11:00 AM)

Re: "old hillclimb car FREE!!!" - '78 Fiesta + Honda V-4 swap

Subscribed.

I think this thread already wins the 2023 "Fastest 0-to-Most Likely to be Awesome" trophy!

After all, I already knew something was up when the MSR stove appeared, then the oscilloscope, then timing by fire ----

Re: "old hillclimb car FREE!!!" - '78 Fiesta + Honda V-4 swap

https://i.imgur.com/GvSciSc.png

Before ordering anything to get it up to race standards, it has to move under its own power.
Here's what stands in the way of that as of today:

- Find a replacement passenger-side inner CV joint.
- Finish fabrication of chain drive shafts. (in progress 70%)
- Finish fabrication of chain drive housing / adapter mount. (in progress 30%)
- Order fasteners.
- Sort the brakes.
- Finish checking tolerances on the #2 motor, button it back up with the clutch from #1 motor. Install new coolant o-rings.

Re: "old hillclimb car FREE!!!" - '78 Fiesta + Honda V-4 swap

For a minute I thought I finally found a good reason for this motor coming with a "do not start" sticker.

https://i.ibb.co/WDS3Qh3/ezgif-com-optimize.gif

But with the transmission removed that is shaft only supported in once place.

Never mind.

Re: "old hillclimb car FREE!!!" - '78 Fiesta + Honda V-4 swap

cheseroo wrote:

A couple of things come to mind in this.

I'll be sure to bring a spare clutch.


My current understanding, that fate has smiled upon us and everything is spinning in the right direction, is entirely based on an assumption that the car's transmission is not currently in reverse.

I should really check.

Re: "old hillclimb car FREE!!!" - '78 Fiesta + Honda V-4 swap

This is very entertaining. (You might be able to edit your O.P. _topic_ to reflect the thread's build character, though sometimes that function craps out on me)

Re: "old hillclimb car FREE!!!" - '78 Fiesta + Honda V-4 swap

Holy. Crap.

[Subscribed]

Also: Tip-top forum handle.

Eric Rood
Everything Bagel, 24 Hours of Lemons
eric@24hoursoflemons.com

Re: "old hillclimb car FREE!!!" - '78 Fiesta + Honda V-4 swap

I'm excited to see this at the ridge in October. Great thread.

BSOD Racing, 1987 Fiat X1/9

Re: "old hillclimb car FREE!!!" - '78 Fiesta + Honda V-4 swap

https://i.ibb.co/7YhM1FC/ezgif-5-4a629a7e36.gif

Learned two things today.

Re: "old hillclimb car FREE!!!" - '78 Fiesta + Honda V-4 swap

No wait, three things.

The motorcycle and car components rotate in agreeable directions. We will not be racing in reverse.

Re: "old hillclimb car FREE!!!" - '78 Fiesta + Honda V-4 swap

GEARS

Twenty of them, more than a semi, plus four reverse gears.

What to do? Five speed sequential, four on the floor, or both?
So many different terrible ways the shifters could be combined...

https://i.imgur.com/LnIz0Cq.png

But the boring answer is the right one in this case.

I'm not sure which set of ratios to choose though.
Is The Ridge a track where you want to be gear limited at 98?

Can a Ford BC-4 transaxle can handle 137 lb/ft?

21 (edited by traviswolfe 2023-05-11 02:16 AM)

Re: "old hillclimb car FREE!!!" - '78 Fiesta + Honda V-4 swap

largest-farva wrote:

I'm not sure which set of ratios to choose though.
Is The Ridge a track where you want to be gear limited at 98?

The straight at The Ridge is just about 1/2 mile long. I would expect you to be exiting the previous apex between 40-50mph, depending on how aggressive your setup is. If I had to guess, you'll be hitting a little over 105mph.

Don't forget you can play with tire sizes to change your effective gear ratios, too. 28" diameter seems pretty massive for a little Fiesta. Are you sure you wouldn't run something closer to a 23" diameter? That would actually put your Fiesta-4th-Donutcycle-3rd combination at ~107mph, which seems pretty ideal.

Re: "old hillclimb car FREE!!!" - '78 Fiesta + Honda V-4 swap

While it sounds fun to be Trucker Tim shuffling through both shifters on his Brownie Box down the straights, I think you'd be better off choosing  one bike gear and using the transaxle the rest of the time.  I would guess 3rd would be the sweet spot.  Also one spare clutch probably won't do it, probably need 3.  If a yellow causes a stack up in that 2-3-4-5 or T10 area, one single rough clutch slip on an uphill start from stop or near stop will smoke the clutch.  Even pit stops will benefit greatly with pushing the car to get it rolling before engaging the clutch.  That's probably the only time I'd use the bike trans, to get it rolling from a stop and then stick it in 3rd.  The clutch wasn't designed for something that weighed 3-4x what the bike weighs and standing starts are super rough on it.

You go boy.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

Re: "old hillclimb car FREE!!!" - '78 Fiesta + Honda V-4 swap

This hurts my head thinking about the permutations, but I’m glad you’re here. Top marks. Agreed that the bike clutch is probably the weak link in the chain, the torque is probably within reason for what the Ford trans can handle…

#289 1984 Corvette Z51 (the road goes on forever…)
#111 Tradewinds Tribesmen VW Passat Inde ‘20 (‘21 too) Thunderhill ‘22!
Gone but not forgotten, #427-Hong Kong Cavaliers Benz S500: formerly known as OMG Racing #140
Other foolishness: Finisher of Hell on Wheels (Jaguar) IOE (Humber)

Re: "old hillclimb car FREE!!!" - '78 Fiesta + Honda V-4 swap

I'm also curious how you are transmitting the power from the bike output to the car trans input shaft.  If using a chain, be aware that a few of the other car/bike mashups had problems with the chain being too short.  It turns out those long chain runs on a bike are beneficial to the chain as it allows time for the chain to air cool itself before absorbing heat on the next tension run.  When the chain has been too short, the chain overheats and fails.  I think that's why timing chains are oil cooled and harleys run that big wide chain or belts on their primary..  Another mistake I've seen is underestimating the engine mount strength required with the engine bending the shit out of the mounts as it tries to use the chain to suck itself closer to whatever it is it's driving, in this case a transaxle.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

Re: "old hillclimb car FREE!!!" - '78 Fiesta + Honda V-4 swap

cheseroo wrote:

While it sounds fun to be Trucker Tim shuffling through both shifters on his Brownie Box down the straights, I think you'd be better off choosing  one bike gear and using the transaxle the rest of the time.  I would guess 3rd would be the sweet spot.  Also one spare clutch probably won't do it, probably need 3.  If a yellow causes a stack up in that 2-3-4-5 or T10 area, one single rough clutch slip on an uphill start from stop or near stop will smoke the clutch.  Even pit stops will benefit greatly with pushing the car to get it rolling before engaging the clutch.  That's probably the only time I'd use the bike trans, to get it rolling from a stop and then stick it in 3rd.  The clutch wasn't designed for something that weighed 3-4x what the bike weighs and standing starts are super rough on it.

You go boy.

Where's CrabSpirits when you need him*? When he built the CBR-powered Subaru 360 (which got banninated from Lemons for being too small), he ended up with a theoretical 30-speed gearbox, but he basically used two gears in the Metro transaxle he had and then mostly used the bike gearbox.

There's video of him driving it on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/@CrabSpirits/videos

The Ziptied build thread appears to have been vanished from the internet, which makes sense because it was full of now-broken photo links.
https://hooniverse.com/video-bike-power … f-garbage/



* I sent him this thread and he said "Dayummmmm." He's built a lot of things out of unalike things so that's a high compliment.

Eric Rood
Everything Bagel, 24 Hours of Lemons
eric@24hoursoflemons.com