The 24 Hours of Lemons Forums → Lemons Newcomers → Are S197 Mustang GTs too cheaty?
Hey folks.
Not quite a newbie here, but new to starting a build from scratch.
I have a theme in mind that requires a 2005-2007 mustang. I thought v6 would pass BS. But now I may be able to buy a 4.6 for $5000. I can't count enough parts to sell to get close to $500 from there.
Any thoughts on how BS would go? Is anyone ever outright turned away?
How raceworthy are those GTs compared to V6s?
Thanks!
Hey folks.
Not quite a newbie here, but new to starting a build from scratch.
I have a theme in mind that requires a 2005-2007 mustang. I thought v6 would pass BS. But now I may be able to buy a 4.6 for $5000. I can't count enough parts to sell to get close to $500 from there.Any thoughts on how BS would go? Is anyone ever outright turned away?
How raceworthy are those GTs compared to V6s?Thanks!
As far as I have experienced, no car is turned away. You'll just get penalty laps based on an entirely subjective valuation of your car. Don't sweat it. Do the thing and have fun.
Agree with Dirty. Build what you want, build to the spirit of the $500 rule, and have fun. Will you likely get laps? Highly probable. But if you can sell off a LOT of items (e.g. entire interior, AC system, parts not needed, etc) and get super close to $500, you'll be fine. Now, if you show up in a brand new Porsche Cayman GT4 and want to race with a a bunch of idiots in cheap cars...sure, go for it...but you'll likely get something like 500 Brazilian penalty laps.
Long story short: An S197 Mustang GT has the ability to be VERY FAST for a Lemons field. It'll get some serious scrutiny and you can expect the judges to have a fairly long pre-race conversation about taking extra pains not to be a douche on the track.
Fast Car + n00bs = Easy to get in over your head
As far as I have experienced, no car is turned away. You'll just get penalty laps based on an entirely subjective valuation of your car. Don't sweat it. Do the thing and have fun.
The only car I have seen turned away was a Corvette with all the body panels removed Exocet style at HPR. The cage was also too short for their driver.
That being said, there was a very fast Mustang at the MSR Houston race a while back. It didn't even make a couple of laps before it went into the wall. Cars that are faster than the rest of the field tend to sort themselves out by either blowing up or crashing, hopefully not hurting anyone in the process.
I would suggest finding something else if you want to actually enjoy yourself at the race.
DirtyDuc wrote:As far as I have experienced, no car is turned away. You'll just get penalty laps based on an entirely subjective valuation of your car. Don't sweat it. Do the thing and have fun.
The only car I have seen turned away was a Corvette with all the body panels removed Exocet style at HPR. The cage was also too short for their driver.
That being said, there was a very fast Mustang at the MSR Houston race a while back. It didn't even make a couple of laps before it went into the wall. Cars that are faster than the rest of the field tend to sort themselves out by either blowing up or crashing, hopefully not hurting anyone in the process.
I would suggest finding something else if you want to actually enjoy yourself at the race.
I guess I should have said No car that passes tech is turned away.
Like that hella cheaty Porsche Cayman? Boxster? I saw at Buttonwillow a couple of times.
I'm still in the single digits of how many races I've been to, but it seems like mustangs generally don't do that well, so even though it seems cheaty I feel like there should be some leniency during BS. Miatas and BMWs, understandably, receive the most scrutiny.
Max likes to nerd out on data and according to his spreadsheet only 1 mustang won in 2022, and their placement seems to average in the middle of the field. You'll be able to race with it, but worst case you'll be in A class w/ penalty laps. Putting a high treadwear all season tire would also help keep you out of penalty laps, but it will certainly increase the judges worries of a V8 mustang crashing into other cars.
With that said, $5000 for a car that isn't already caged and race ready is VERY expensive... your going to be well over $10k when the build is done. If your patient you should be able to find one with bad paperwork, backfees, some mechanical issues, or one that's been kinda crashed for less than half that price. It's a racecar, the trick to getting a good deal on these is generally finding a decent car with bad paperwork/backfees since that pretty much cuts the sellable price in half.
You can find one for way under 5k...keep looking. My advice is to buy one that "needs work" You can probably find one for $1500 or less. FWIW our 1st car (RIP) was an 84 L69 Trans Am we got for $850. I sold well over $1600 in parts. It can be done.
look at the buy it now price https://www.iaai.com/VehicleDetail/33409537~US
or for a little more money https://www.iaai.com/VehicleDetail/36280969~US you'd have to sell the interior bits...
I think you can run a V6 for zero laps.
Vincent, VKZ24, has an S197 GT and, holy shit is that thing fast. From what I recall, it's not even that heavily modified - stiffer suspension, Raybestos ST43s, Hankook R-S4s, and probably some little stuff here and there.
My personal recommendation, worthless though it may be, would be to start with a 4.0 V6, and then down the road if you really, really feel like you need more power, look to swapping it for the 3.7 Cyclone. It may not sound like much, but a torquey 200hp manual car is plenty fast for racing. An E36 328i doesn't even have that much power, and they're capable of winning overall. You can have plenty of fun with the 'slow' V6, as long as you don't blow it up.
Vincent, VKZ24, has an S197 GT and, holy shit is that thing fast. From what I recall, it's not even that heavily modified - stiffer suspension, Raybestos ST43s, Hankook R-S4s, and probably some little stuff here and there.
My personal recommendation, worthless though it may be, would be to start with a 4.0 V6, and then down the road if you really, really feel like you need more power, look to swapping it for the 3.7 Cyclone. It may not sound like much, but a torquey 200hp manual car is plenty fast for racing. An E36 328i doesn't even have that much power, and they're capable of winning overall. You can have plenty of fun with the 'slow' V6, as long as you don't blow it up.
we run a 88 305 Firebird, a few engine mods but not much. The best investment was good suspension parts, good tires and C6 brakes with ST-43's. This alone lets us drive way into turn one while the others are braking.
I imagine some factors not listed in the rules go into BS as well. how many go fast parts are you gonna do on a mustang, but also wheels and brakes.
I know wheels tires and brakes are "free" or don't count towards the budget, but it felt like maybe they show how "serious" you are. We got B class in a subaru, but we showed up with 245 rs4s on rpf1s and aluminum 4 piston wrx brakes. Another subie was class C with stock wheels and brakes. Of course our old impreza is much lighter as well.
And to clarify I AM NOT COMPLAINING that classing felt very fair to both cars.
I'm just saying stock exhaust, stock wheels, bet you don't get hammered nearly as hard as if you show up with a header back and mean, fast sounding car on racing wheels and racing suspension. I do like good brakes lol.
There is a 2015 a3 racing out west. They get to always be in traffic lol.
[snip]
I know wheels tires and brakes are "free" or don't count towards the budget, but it felt like maybe they show how "serious" you are.
[snip]
I hope this ^ isn't true, as in "RealRacer°" true.
I hope it shows how knowledgeable, responsible, and therefore _truly_ serious the builder(s) is (are).
Multiple people driving a car they don't regularly drive, in a manner they (hopefully) don't regularly drive; I'm HOPING the vehicles have good brakes. For me, upgrade them as much as you'd like - it'll be safer on the track for everybody.
Now: the loud exhaust - that's a sign of obviously cheaty performance upgrades and high testosterone levels, and should get many, many penalty laps. Because - you know - the louder the car, ... .
Yeah might not be true idk, and I'm not saying don't upgrade brakes, just to take it to the extreme image someone showed up with a stop tech 6 piston big brake kit. Sure it's totally legal, but don't you think you'll get some sideways looks? Just has that race prepped look.
Idk probably that stuff doesn't effect penalty laps, I was more thinking about getting bumped into A or B class. And that's kinda legit, if you have better brakes and wider tires you will have faster lap times.
Zacks wrote:[snip]
I know wheels tires and brakes are "free" or don't count towards the budget, but it felt like maybe they show how "serious" you are.
[snip]I hope this ^ isn't true, as in "RealRacer°" true.
I hope it shows how knowledgeable, responsible, and therefore _truly_ serious the builder(s) is (are).
Multiple people driving a car they don't regularly drive, in a manner they (hopefully) don't regularly drive; I'm HOPING the vehicles have good brakes. For me, upgrade them as much as you'd like - it'll be safer on the track for everybody.
Now: the loud exhaust - that's a sign of obviously cheaty performance upgrades and high testosterone levels, and should get many, many penalty laps. Because - you know - the louder the car, ... .
Nothing louder than those Miatas...I can't even hear the rumble of our V8 when we drive by them... Don't know how those guys can sit in the car for 1.5 hours . lol
[snip]
Nothing louder than those Miatas...I can't even hear the rumble of our V8 when we drive by them... [snip]
I'm sorry, WHAT???
Zacks wrote:[snip]
I know wheels tires and brakes are "free" or don't count towards the budget, but it felt like maybe they show how "serious" you are.
[snip]I hope this ^ isn't true, as in "RealRacer°" true.
I hope it shows how knowledgeable, responsible, and therefore _truly_ serious the builder(s) is (are).
Multiple people driving a car they don't regularly drive, in a manner they (hopefully) don't regularly drive; I'm HOPING the vehicles have good brakes. For me, upgrade them as much as you'd like - it'll be safer on the track for everybody.
Now: the loud exhaust - that's a sign of obviously cheaty performance upgrades and high testosterone levels, and should get many, many penalty laps. Because - you know - the louder the car, ... .
I'm fairly sure it is true. If the judges walk up to a car and see a $4000 set of wheels and carbon/carbon brakes, that's the "Easy" button for them to look a little deeper for the other non-free cheaty bits that may exist on the car particularly one with performance aspirations like the OP is inquiring about. They don't care about the wheels and brakes but they certainly can point to someone looking to checkbook race themselves into an unsafe closing speed situation. It isn't that they are worried that you will show up with your GT2 and run off with the 400 bucks or whatever A pays these days. They are worried about semi-guided missiles that run lap times 30 seconds faster than the next fastest car.
Exhibit A: 24 Seconds of Lemons
https://youtu.be/ld1KuIu2QbM?t=107
While I am not saying all Mustangs/teams will do this, but an new team with a car with 300+HP/TQ, that is known to be tail happy, is a recipe for crashing. I also realize the Mustang above is SUPER cheaty. The GT must also suck down gas at a super fast pace.
A V6 on the other hand seems more reasonable at about 200HP, will do better on fuel, and could actually win a race with an experienced team.
With all that said, bring what you want, as long as it passes tech you will most likely get to race.
Zacks wrote:[snip]
I know wheels tires and brakes are "free" or don't count towards the budget, but it felt like maybe they show how "serious" you are.
[snip]I hope this ^ isn't true, as in "RealRacer°" true.
I hope it shows how knowledgeable, responsible, and therefore _truly_ serious the builder(s) is (are).
Multiple people driving a car they don't regularly drive, in a manner they (hopefully) don't regularly drive; I'm HOPING the vehicles have good brakes. For me, upgrade them as much as you'd like - it'll be safer on the track for everybody.
Now: the loud exhaust - that's a sign of obviously cheaty performance upgrades and high testosterone levels, and should get many, many penalty laps. Because - you know - the louder the car, ... .
I agree with Zacks... even though brakes and wheels/tires are budget exempt, they'll absolutely be the kicker between classes if you are borderline between classes. Lots of identical-ish cars out there in different classes with the only difference being one has wide wheels w/ RS4's and the other has factory wheels with all-seasons. Same goes for ones w/ a BBK vs. stock discs or disc swap vs. drum brakes. I get it's budget exempt, but those mods give huge insight to how reliable and quick the car might be over the weekend.
Thanks for the feedback everyone!
The GT i was looking at turned out to have some other [non-essential] issues, so I ended up buying it for $3,900. I have zero plans to add power to it, but I'm pretty sure I'll go with GT500 brakes, though, since everything on the car now is warped and corroded to sht anyway.
I'd rather have a de-tuned GT than a V6 because it just needs to sounds right for my theme. I wanna build a replica of the Death Race mustang. I searched around and haven't seen that one done yet.
Thanks for the feedback everyone!
The GT i was looking at turned out to have some other [non-essential] issues, so I ended up buying it for $3,900. I have zero plans to add power to it, but I'm pretty sure I'll go with GT500 brakes, though, since everything on the car now is warped and corroded to sht anyway.I'd rather have a de-tuned GT than a V6 because it just needs to sounds right for my theme. I wanna build a replica of the Death Race mustang. I searched around and haven't seen that one done yet.
I don't know that platform, but the pads are probably more important than the caliper. Get some real race pads like ST43s or you will run out of pad on Saturday. Don't get fancy drilled rotors, just blanks.
Brakes, on these pigs of cars, and cooling are the 2 quintessential areas you need to focus on. Sure, suspension will help (get -2.5 to -3 degrees of camber up front if you can), but if you can't keep her cool or can't stop her, you're going to have a really "fun" day. And by "fun", I mean annoyed AF.
We upgraded from the stock foxbody brakes to Cobra brakes all around (13" dual piston calipers up front + Cobra rear discs + manual prop valve). MILES of difference, and the fat girl actually slows down waaaay better than factory. As for the cooling, we went with a Chinesium 3-core aluminum radiator + 2 electric fans + shroud (eBay: $198 shipped for all)...word of advice: DO NOT USE THE SHROUD. Ziptie/mount the fans directly to the radiator, and add some baffling/shrouding to funnel all the air through the radiator. Focus on brakes and cooling, leave everything else stock (maybe do some suspension if your budget allows it), and go play. Less power is not a bad thing in these pigs...the more stock you keep it, the longer she'll maybe, hopefully, somewhat stay reliable.
Brakes, on these pigs of cars,
Try a Gen III F-body, lol
There was an S197 GT at the NJ race last weekend. I wandered over an talked to them for a while Friday night. The thing was hella cheaty, then the owner dropped “we shift at 7000 every time” I knew what I was looking at. But true to his word, that raucous 3 valve went screaming by me lap after lap until they literally drove the wheels off. Damn that thing was fast.
Ford Modulars rock. The S197 chassis is basically a cheapened DEW98 that underpinned junk like the Lincoln LS and Jag S-type. Very capable platform
DirtyDuc wrote:As far as I have experienced, no car is turned away. You'll just get penalty laps based on an entirely subjective valuation of your car. Don't sweat it. Do the thing and have fun.
The only car I have seen turned away was a Corvette with all the body panels removed Exocet style at HPR. The cage was also too short for their driver.
That being said, there was a very fast Mustang at the MSR Houston race a while back. It didn't even make a couple of laps before it went into the wall. Cars that are faster than the rest of the field tend to sort themselves out by either blowing up or crashing, hopefully not hurting anyone in the process.
I would suggest finding something else if you want to actually enjoy yourself at the race.
Yea...Not necessarily true. We built the corvette mentioned above. Cage was more than OK. But it was turned away from Lemons due to the fact that we made all of our own body panels. Rules do state you must have OE body parts....which we didn't because the car had been rolled over. (thats how you get a car to meet the budget) It was disappointing it was turned away, but we understand why.
The Corvette is currently running in another series that would allow it. In fact here is a video of Randy Pobst driving it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_t519OEY5w
Moral of the story is stay within the sprit/budget of things and you'll be fine....just don't make your own body.
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