Topic: Need some answers

1. Is hard, close racing allowed here or would that get us kicked out? I see a lot of people come here with a car dressed up silly like ghostbusters, mario kart, etc. But I want to be in the competitive side of these events. I don't want to show up and hear "Remember to keep a car length between each other" or "No bumping".

2. How do the techs determine if your car is within the 500 dollar budget? I understand that the safety aspects of the equipment are excluded from this rule. But how would the techs determine whether or not your car is $500 or $5000.

3. Any recommendations for where to get a car in the SC area? Would like to use a car that will already pass tech  Looking to try out Road Atlanta this year.

Re: Need some answers

ccooke wrote:

1. Is hard, close racing allowed here or would that get us kicked out? I see a lot of people come here with a car dressed up silly like ghostbusters, mario kart, etc. But I want to be in the competitive side of these events. I don't want to show up and hear "Remember to keep a car length between each other" or "No bumping".

2. How do the techs determine if your car is within the 500 dollar budget? I understand that the safety aspects of the equipment are excluded from this rule. But how would the techs determine whether or not your car is $500 or $5000.

3. Any recommendations for where to get a car in the SC area? Would like to use a car that will already pass tech  Looking to try out Road Atlanta this year.

1) The racing on track is competitive.  Series rules state car contact is not allowed and it is enforced on the track!  You will get a black flag for car to car contact.  One is an accident two or more is a habit and you could be parked for a period of time.  Most cars you are racing have much different speeds, so a bump and run through a corner or any other contact should never be needed to pass.

2) I have never been asked to show $500 dollar documentation.  The judges have been doing this for a long time and for the most part get classing and penalty laps correct for cars.  If you have a Super cheaty car that is legitimately $500 and you don't want penalty laps: 1) Bring documentation like you are expecting an IRS audit...2) Bring a theme and "bribe" judges to limit penalty laps.

3) Finding an already prepped Lemons legal car can be tricky outside of the forums and a couple of select Facebook groups.  See Citrus Racer Lounge or Unofficial facebook group of the 24 hours of Lemons(TM).   There may be a regional group for the south east that someone could point you to as well

1975 Chevy LUV.  1 Corinthians 13:7
1999 Chevy Blazer

Re: Need some answers

ccooke wrote:

1. Is hard, close racing allowed here or would that get us kicked out? I see a lot of people come here with a car dressed up silly like ghostbusters, mario kart, etc. But I want to be in the competitive side of these events. I don't want to show up and hear "Remember to keep a car length between each other" or "No bumping".

2. How do the techs determine if your car is within the 500 dollar budget? I understand that the safety aspects of the equipment are excluded from this rule. But how would the techs determine whether or not your car is $500 or $5000.

3. Any recommendations for where to get a car in the SC area? Would like to use a car that will already pass tech  Looking to try out Road Atlanta this year.

1) Contact gets a black flag, anything not-contact nobody cares. If you want to race in Lemons to be competitive, to be perfectly blunt, you may want to look into another series. Some try to be competitive, but there are lots of other series that are catered to the goal of being competitive.
2) I like to describe it as $500 of reliability+performance... but that doesn't necessary equate to $500 actual dollars. I think judges can pretty quickly sniff that out.
3) This forum has lots of good prebuilt deals. I know a guy selling a dodge stealth Lemons car... the car is in michigan or florida, i think michigan.

Full Ass Racing
#455 Piñata Miata - 1990 Miata
#735 BMDollhÜr 7Turdy5i - 1990 735i

Re: Need some answers

ccooke wrote:

1. Is hard, close racing allowed here or would that get us kicked out? I see a lot of people come here with a car dressed up silly like ghostbusters, mario kart, etc. But I want to be in the competitive side of these events. I don't want to show up and hear "Remember to keep a car length between each other" or "No bumping".

"No Bumping" should be a rule for any driver in any series. If you're a "Rubbin' is racin'" person, you will not be happy in Lemons. Or moreover, Lemons will not be happy with you. If you require someone to tell you that at any race you show up to, well... Teams/cars that hit people definitely get a reputation. Do enough of it and you'll get parked, or even worse, asked not to register again.

Here's the rookie meeting for new Lemons drivers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1Ui9qgDjcQ&t=1s

When you get hot lapped by a pink mazda3 driven by a team of guys wearing pink tutus, are you going to feel bad? Maybe Lemons isn't for you then. If you think the people dressing up and theming their cars are NOT competitive, boy will you be shocked when you show up... One of the fastest and best teams in Lemons shows up dressed as alice in wonderland characters.

Here's the links for AER and WRL, maybe those are more suitable for the "hard, close racing" without a lot of people in costumes...
https://ThatOtherSeries.com/
https://www.racewrl.com/
Also solves your concern about budget, since those series allow an almost unlimited budget.

Rather than buying your own car to enter as your first step, you should:
- Go and spectate a Lemons race. If's $30 for the weekend and gives you all access to the paddock to watch tech and talk to teams. NCM would be a good choice, and you can hit the corvette museum while you're there.
- Use the forums or facebook "arrive and drive matchmaker" group to go drive with an existing team first.
Getting experience with an existing team will make everything "make sense" for you when you go to get your own car later.

Be humble, be polite (on and off the track).

1989 Merkur XR4Ti: Project Merkur Space Program - Wins: Class C - Colonel and the Sinkhole 2023 | "Heroic Fix" The Pitt Maneuver 2023 | "Halloween Meets Gasoline" The Pitt Maneuver 2022
1980 Dodge Challenger: Most Extreme eLemonAtion Challenger (Rust Belt Ramble 2021 Dishonorable Mention)

Re: Need some answers

ccooke wrote:

1. Is hard, close racing allowed here or would that get us kicked out? I see a lot of people come here with a car dressed up silly like ghostbusters, mario kart, etc. But I want to be in the competitive side of these events. I don't want to show up and hear "Remember to keep a car length between each other" or "No bumping".

2. How do the techs determine if your car is within the 500 dollar budget? I understand that the safety aspects of the equipment are excluded from this rule. But how would the techs determine whether or not your car is $500 or $5000.

3. Any recommendations for where to get a car in the SC area? Would like to use a car that will already pass tech  Looking to try out Road Atlanta this year.

1. There are hundreds of in car videos on Youtube from races you can watch to see how competitive it is on track.  Most of the black flags are for contact, a wheel or two off track, or passing under yellow. 

2. The techs don't care how much your car costs, but the BS judges use their experience to value your car.  If it looks like something that would be on a track at a high performance driving event, be prepared for some extra scrutiny.  Themes and bribes almost always help.

3. Try the Citrus Racers Lounge and the Unofficial Facebook Group of the 24 Hours of Lemons on Facebook to see if anyone has anything for sale.

Team whatever_racecar #745 Volvo wagon

Re: Need some answers

I'm gonna address your fist question by sentence.

ccooke wrote:

1. Is hard, close racing allowed here or would that get us kicked out?

This depends a lot on what YOUR definition of "hard, close racing..." is. If you think you'd like use another another car for extra braking into a corner, or to help you make a corner that you're unable to make unassisted then you will be disappointed about the penalties you receive over the weekend. There is hard, close racing that is just that racing, not demolition derby. I have had "fast" (BMW's and Miatas) cars treat me as though they have a right to my spot on the track. Sometimes they bounce off and go agricultural, and sometimes there is minor contact, and once I was taken out of the race. The first two, Meh, it didn't bother me. The last however really sucks. Ask yourself, "Do I want to be responsible for ruining someone's weekend, wasting their money, and time?" If your answer is along the lines of "Eh, it's racing" then you will not be happy in Lemons.

ccooke wrote:

I see a lot of people come here with a car dressed up silly like ghostbusters, mario kart, etc.

KeiCarMike addressed this, but here's a bit more...The series got started because racing is too expensive for the average enthusiast, and racers were too stuck up to make noobs feel welcome (This is a generalization and is in no way directed at anyone in particular.) Racing a car on a track with the circus is an interesting experience. Racing with people who have barely ever turned their steering wheel above 30 mph is kinda mind boggling. 

ccooke wrote:

But I want to be in the competitive side of these events.

While not an indicator of your performance, the odds are against you being truly competitive in your first year of Lemons racing.
Can you pass people? You sure can. Will you get passed by others? Abso-f#¢king-lutely.

ccooke wrote:

I don't want to show up and hear "Remember to keep a car length between each other" or "No bumping".

Ask yourself, if you heard those words at the event, is your racecraft so poor that you couldn't stand to be on track?
If "YES" pick another series that doesn't care if some asshat destroys another competitor's cars.

Lemons is a great community, friendly (not me, of course, but other's are), helpful (name a series that has competitors willing to help you finish building your entry at the track the day before the race), welcoming, and low stress. We're racers, and some are REAL RACERS™.
REAL RACERS™, mostly, try and avoid contact with other cars. The chance of a negative outcome is too great.

Capt. Delinquent Racing
RUST-TITE XR4Ti - '21 ARSE-FREEZE-APALOOZA  I Got Screwed
The One & Only Taurus V8 SHO #31(now moved on to another OG Delinquent)
'17 Vodden the Hell - (No) Hope for the Future Award, '08 AMP Survivor, '08 ARSE-FREEZE-APALOOZA Mega-Cheater

Re: Need some answers

ccooke wrote:

1. Is hard, close racing allowed here or would that get us kicked out? I see a lot of people come here with a car dressed up silly like ghostbusters, mario kart, etc. But I want to be in the competitive side of these events. I don't want to show up and hear "Remember to keep a car length between each other" or "No bumping".

If you don't want to hear "No bumping" Lemons is not for you. No contact is allowed and overly aggressive driving will get you booted from the race and/or the series.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C x2 and IOE winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

Re: Need some answers

Worry about the theme later bring a safe reliable car to the track and have fun.

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: Need some answers

Thank you for all the replies everyone. I do want to point out that I had no intention of wrecking anybody. I just wanted to know if I would be yelled at if I attempted 3 wide or accidently tapped someone due to a slightly different braking zone. I'm sorry if the "hard racing" came off the wrong way. I understand that motorsports is inherently dangerous no matter how much safety improves. But I'm also someone who believes that contact IS going inevitable as some point in a competitive environment.
As you all pointed out, perhaps Lemons is not for me. Again, thank you for the replies and good luck racing!

Re: Need some answers

The "no contact" thing has been covered, but here's what I'll add: If you're driving people hard into every corner and forcing cars to go three-wide, you're gonna run out of luck and/or talent eventually.

What Lemons teaches fast drivers in fast cars is this: PATIENCE. In all caps.

That means seeing the big picture at all times with this kind of stuff:

* Thinking about where you're probably going to catch traffic and plan ahead so your only option isn't either contact or going off the track.
* Making sure cars you're passing know you're there AND will leave you room. Reading other cars' "body language" is a skill that you have to learn.
* Respecting that every car in the field is running its own race. The drivers and teams are fighting their own issues and racing against other people in other classes (or more likely, racing against their temp and oil pressure gauges). Everyone paid their fees to be there and everyone deserves the same respect on the track.
* Expecting other drivers to make rookie mistakes and do unexpected things. It's not that "leave a car length" is recommended advice, but it does create a little bit of safety buffer in case someone checks up or brakes earlier than you expect.
* Remembering at all times (if you're trying to be competitive) that the biggest blow to your chances to is not being on the track. That means collecting black flags, fixing damage to your car, and adding extra fuel stops because you burn a bunch more gas driving 11/10ths.

Some people learn it faster than others and some never learn it so they go elsewhere. What I will say is that other drivers who have done Lemons first and then gone elsewhere have told me they seem to have better spatial awareness and traffic understanding after running Lemons.

If you want to see the most successful Lemons team of all time handling traffic, here's Pete from Cerveza handling the 228-car field at Thunderhill in 2014 on the way to an overall win*. Like most successful teams in any sport or competition, it's remarkably unremarkable. Things are smooth, the driver takes hardly any chances, and they're clearly thinking through the problem before they arrive there.

YMMV, but if you've not done wheel to wheel stuff on a road racing track AND have an interest in endurance racing, Lemons is really a great, low-pressure place to start.



* You should watch the whole thing, but around 8:00 is a great example: The driver is patient to pass the #200 Audi, then catches the white #33 BMW to the inside, but backs out because he realizes he's in the white BMW's blind spot. He's not certain the other driver sees him and would let him have the inside line through the corner. He checks up, gives up some space because he ends up behind the slow Fairmont, then the red Devil E30 makes what is probably a dicey move inside the #33 BMW.

What you should take away is that you're not racing every car on the track into every corner. It's also clear that the driver has thought pretty long and hard about where on the circuit there's room and where the other drivers' workload is going to be high enough they can't respond to moves other drivers make. These are NOT typically skills you will have in your first 1-5 races. They're things you develop.

Eric Rood
Everything Bagel, 24 Hours of Lemons
eric@24hoursoflemons.com

11 (edited by Bricoop 2023-06-15 03:43 PM)

Re: Need some answers

ccooke wrote:

Thank you for all the replies everyone. I do want to point out that I had no intention of wrecking anybody. I just wanted to know if I would be yelled at if I attempted 3 wide or accidently tapped someone due to a slightly different braking zone. I'm sorry if the "hard racing" came off the wrong way. I understand that motorsports is inherently dangerous no matter how much safety improves. But I'm also someone who believes that contact IS going inevitable as some point in a competitive environment.
As you all pointed out, perhaps Lemons is not for me. Again, thank you for the replies and good luck racing!

Two and three wide racing is common.  Here is us at the end of Sunday getting comfy with a couple others.  https://youtu.be/gOjPz6OWvCQ?t=3200 Check out various points in this video, we are racey.  But Always try and remember you are not racing the guy next to you.  You're racing the clock.  If you dive bomb him and mess up your corner and his corner, both of your races have been negatively impacted.  if you follow him through the corner and pass him on the straight you will both have a faster lap time.  Lemons drivers generally do a good job of letting faster cars through as you will complete fewer laps if you're battling competitors.

But if you can't judge competitors braking points, you shouldn't be on a race track. 

Remember you are endurance racing.  If you drive it like you're heat racing you will not last.  Endurance racing is about keeping the car on the track.  Whether or not you're racing Lemons, contact will always endanger your ability to stay on track. 

You're right, contact does happen, too frequently.  That's why we have these stellar safety requirements. 

One of our drivers was admonished(Black flagged) at our last race for his driving.  Too racy for a morning session.  They told the painted helmet to cool it, he did, and we went on and had a great rest of the day.  We lost a lap and a half in the process, nobody yelled at anybody and we're all friends at the end of the day.  I hope you do consider to join us after watching some youtube videos.

Re: Need some answers

ccooke, sent you an email.  I'm in Marion also.

#508 Team SOB
FINALLY!!!!!!!!!