1 Topic by meltro (edited by meltro 2023-11-29 07:38 AM)

  • meltro
  • Rookie Driver
  • Offline
  • From: St. Paul, MN
  • Registered: 2018-03-02
  • Posts: 5

Topic: Modifying our 626

We just got back from Road America for the second race of our totally stock '99 Mazda 626 in new 'Galactic Cat-astrophe' theme, and I've come to the conclusion that some choices need to be made.

Bit of backround:

Back in '18, I had watched every Lemons video released, and I wanted to participate. Found this 626 on Craiglist for the asking of $380, with a flat tire, a front brake caliper clamped shut on its disc, an interior that had all but burned to the ground from cigarette holes, and no plates thanks to the owner's recent life choices. $300 and a case of Fat Tire saw me owning the thing, a five pound sledge, copious WD-40, and a bicycle pump saw it run well enough to get home. While getting money together for a roll cage, my 2000 XJ finally gave up the ghost, and for the rest of the Minnesota winter, I was driving a FWD manual with 212k miles on it that I had bought not sure if it would make it home, let alone actually be useful. It ran perfectly all winter.

In the meanwhile, got married and finally get up enough scratch to think about actually racing the thing, which we did in Brainard in '19. Aside from the removed interior, everything down to the replacement rims were OEM or the similar O'reilly Auto Parts product. It ran beautifully, actually making a decent showing in Class B considering we had no clue how to drive, and while we'd put in plenty of work making it race safe, we hadn't done a single thing to make it race ready. Cornering was very weak, braking was middling but manageable, power was fair, bordering on respectable in good conditions, and we had a very fun race. There would be back and forth as we got to the corners but all in all it was going to come down to just staying out there and cranking out laps.

Pandemic, Middle Middle Middle, jump start, get fire bottle checked, on to Road America '23! Things were going really nicely until about 3/4 through the first race lap, when the brakes suddenly gave a far less than noteworthy effort. Backing off to pace car pace for a lap saw the brakes return, but from that point on we were limited to around ~30-40% braking power, albeit keeping one or two good full power stops available. This was my 20 min evaluation that the thing could run at all, and after time was up I handed it off to my two other drivers.

They reported the same behavior for their hour long shifts, and then I Was up again, using the same braking limits. I had just started to get a rythm when, instead of just petering out, the brakes suddenly became something of a mild suggestion of the possibility of considering perhaps reducing the vehicle 's rate of travel at some unspecified point in the distant future. A good runoff area and having to already start braking at the (imaginary) 600 board kept the car out of the wall, but I was E-braking back to the pit.

In Brainard, one set of pads was used all weekend and had more than 50% left. I felt I'd check the pads after the first day, and I had one set of replacement pads just in case. As I'm sure many of you figured out already, they pads had been utterly dusted. OK, throw in the second set, I'll buy more tonight. We got two more hours out of 'em, and a trip to Milwaukee to buy the only two pad sets (and a set of rotors) within 200 miles saw us ready-ish for Sunday. We took the checkered flag, but only by sitting for three hours in the middle of the day.


Storytime over, now the real question. I've been extremely pleased with myself for keeping this thing, right down to the numbers-matching OEM steel rims I search for in a junkyard and working factory-installed climate control, utterly stock. The problem is, it was ruining the race enjoyment....we'd pass anything slow on the straight, then get re-passed as soon as there was a turn. This would happen for half a dozen turns, constantly watching for more cars piling on behind, before the pass stuck. Or whoever we were passing got bored of the repassing. us. It was an annoying, flow-breaking experience that was just ruining fun. I don't want to win, but having to set up every cornering moment so that half a dozen cars can get past you only to catch back up to them is just tedious.

Ultimately I would like some modest improvement in braking, and perhaps carry a little bit more speed through the corners. I could get some sort of performance brakes (ew) but I hear the much more capable brakes of an '03 Mazda 6 will bolt right on, albeit if I get 16 inch rims, which seems the lemons-y thing to do. The steelies have to go (they were so hot when we changed pads they could not be handled), so I'd like to find some brand X wheels that provide good enough ventilation, and at the same time hopefully be a bit easier to find tires for. I have no problem having to change out pads as consumables, but I'd love if I could do no more than one swap per day.

So the actual question: Are there some particular make/model rims that are very lemons-friendly, and easy to get proper sized tires for? I'd like to keep the outer diameter as close as possible to the original (205/60R15) but as mentioned. I need to move up to at least 16" to fit the newer front brakes. Since this will almost certainly be an at least slightly wider tire, are there any good ways to check clearances before ordering, short of making an actual mock-up?  I'd like to use some of the Lemons-friendly Yokohamas (gotta feed the sponsors), but ultimately would be happy with just about anything that fits and isn't unobtanium to get replacements for. Any other words of wisdom/drunken rants also welcome!


The car, in current form:
https://i.imgur.com/S9J7ZTb.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/uybq7Pq.jpg

Team Captain: Liability Only
1999 Mazda 626 LX V6
  • From: Minneapolis, MN
  • Registered: 2023-01-20
  • Posts: 9

Re: Modifying our 626

Hello from across the river!

One idea to help narrow things down: Lucky Dog has been running races at Brainerd the last few years, but is right on the verge of not having enough signups to come back next year. If you sign up for that race -- which you should -- you qualify for cheap Hankook RS4s, which seem to be the best bang for the buck. See https://luckyhankook.com/ for the sizes available in the discount, it's not every size hankook makes, but hopefully one of them fits your application.

There are a bunch of calculators to compare your current tire size vs. a different sized tire you're considering, like https://www.wheel-size.com/calc/ -- just plug in your current tire & say a 225/50ZR16, and see how much taller / wider / etc. the new tire would be

2001 focus zx3

https://www.instagram.com/pyrrhic.victory.racing/

3 Reply by Limonaid (edited by Limonaid 2023-11-29 09:04 AM)

  • Registered: 2011-06-17
  • Posts: 109

Re: Modifying our 626

I run the EPA Racing Dodge Caliber, and we use the factory brake system, but with blank EBC factory style rotors, Porterfield ST-43 brake pads, and Motul RBF600 fluid. With this brake setup, we have never had any issues with braking, we have more than enough braking power and have never experienced any braking fade.

Porterfield custom made ST-43 pads to fit our calipers (I think they made R4 pads for our rear calipers). These pads typically last 2 test days and 2 full races before they need to be replaced.

I would not even think about going with any kind of expensive big brake kit, just get the pads, rotors and fluid we are using and see how that works before you do anything else on braking.

If you do get the bigger Mazda 3 brakes, I'd still get the EBC rotors, ST-43 pads and RBF 600 fluid.

As for wheels:
This site says that the largest factory rim for your 626 was a 7Jx17 ET42. You can probably find those in a junkyard.  https://www.wheel-size.com/size/mazda/626/1999/

I'd really try to get at least 17x8 wheels. I'm guessing a 17x8 ET35 wheel would fit, but you should verify.

You should be able to search some Mazada car forums to see what larger wheels will fit your 626. Maybe the Mazda 3 wheels will bolt right up.

We won the road mangler cup in our last race and got a free set of tires, and are now upgrading to Enkei RPF1 18x9.5 wheels and 255/35R18 Yokohama AD09 tires.

Tires
If you run the 17x7 factory wheels, don't use a tire wider than 205

If you find and run 17x8 wheels, don't use a tire wider than 215.

We were running a 17x8 wheel with 215/40 Yokohama AD08R tires with excellent results.

The Bridgestone RE71RS are also a great option.



Latest wrapup with my Caliber:

https://youtu.be/sdtNjdAkLnk?si=zL9VNQi … &t=529

EPA Racing - #40 Supercharged Dodge Caliber
  • Registered: 2013-11-15
  • Posts: 671

Re: Modifying our 626

Good brake fluid like ATE TYP200, race pads and blank rotors (no holes) will make a world of difference.  You can call/email Porterfield in Costa Mesa, CA and they will make you pads.  I like ST43s if you can get them for the fronts.  A more common caliper in front might get you off the shelf cheaper pad choices.  Be prepared, race pads are expensive. ~$300 for a set of fronts. 

16" is such a limited wheel size for tire choices.  We run 16x7s with a 225/50/r16 Hankook RS4.  That would be .2" taller and .8" wider. I don't agree with Limonaid, a 225 sits fine on our 7" wheel.  Maybe it's different for FWD or a 17" wheel.  Don't go too big as the added weight will slow you down.

Pads, brake fluid, tires and some OEM struts that worked were the biggest performance improvements on our car when we started out.  From there it is all incremental gains and added cheatiness.  Being that you are drive a 626 and not a BMW you will get less scrutiny.

Team whatever_racecar #745 Volvo wagon
  • From: Raleigh, NC
  • Registered: 2019-10-28
  • Posts: 94

Re: Modifying our 626

Agree with the others that good pads and good fluid are the most important.  More rotor surface and open wheels are also nice. 

For the 6 brake upgrade, is that for '06+?  I looked around a bit on RockAuto, the '03-'05 rotors are barely bigger than what's on the 626.  Speed6 stuff would be a good upgrade - still just a single piston caliper, but, has the largest rotor of all, but not sure if that caliper bolts on to your same knuckle.  You're on the right track though - if you can buy off-the-shelf stuff from another car that bolts on, it can be a very cost-effective way to get a little more capability out of it.  Tedious internet searching is your friend, but it sounds like you've done a bit of that already. 

The internet tells me you have a 5x4.5"/5x114.3mm wheel bolt pattern, which is probably the most common pattern there is.  Honda, Nissan, Ford, a lot of Toyotas, GM and Chrysler (if you're of the correct mind that 115 is a tiny rounding error from 114.3) and a whole host of others use that bolt pattern, so cheap wheels should be easy.  Craigslist and FB Marketplace (probably stolen), or car-part.com (possibly not stolen) are good supply stops.

Semi-Sentient Centenarians
1996 Buick Century - we upgraded our crappy GM sedan with parts from a crappy GM minivan.
"It's got a van motor, a 220 cubic inch plant, it's got van tires, van suspension, van shocks. It's a model with the catalytic converters ripped out so
     it'll run good on regular gas. What do you say, is it a racecar or what?" - Blues Brothers, Probably
  • rozap_
  • Ripened Lemon
  • Offline
  • From: Olympia, WA
  • Registered: 2019-01-21
  • Posts: 128

Re: Modifying our 626

Back in '18, I had watched every Lemons video released, and I wanted to participate.

Glad there is someone out there as mentally unwell as I am.

ATE TYP200, Porterfield R4S for us, and then we had brakes that were not scary. Bigger calipers and vented rotors (car had solid ones stock) and dual master cylinder with bias adjustment also helped, but probably not necessary. Brake ducts were $8 of dryer ducting, easy, and maybe also helped. Now I have the opposite problem where braking performance is kinda scary under yellow flag, but as soon as there's some heat into the system it's great.

BSOD Racing, 1987 Fiat X1/9
  • Registered: 2011-06-17
  • Posts: 109

Re: Modifying our 626

rb92673 wrote:

...a 225 sits fine on our 7" wheel.  Maybe it's different for FWD or a 17" wheel.

Could be. We just found that the narrower tire felt better in the corners.

rb92673 wrote:

Don't go too big as the added weight will slow you down.

That is really the point!

Interesting article here on tire width vs wheel width for on track performance: https://www.thedrive.com/car-reviews/wa … lly-faster

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MDq23scaWw

EPA Racing - #40 Supercharged Dodge Caliber
  • From: Camarillo, CA
  • Registered: 2021-03-26
  • Posts: 386

Re: Modifying our 626

I love your theme!

As you increase your cornering grip and get better at driving (not saying you're not already... but we all get faster and faster), you'll find yourself braking less and less. As long as you've got disc brakes all around... you should be fine with ducting to the front, running good pads, and then call it a day. Both of our cars have stock brakes and have been fine... but if we run autozone/oreilly street pads then we'll roast them quickly. I'd recommend ST43 pads as others have mentioned, if they don't stock your pad they can also cut for free if you give them your old backing plates. They're pricey but last orders of magnitude longer, so per hour they're actually very affordable.

I would recommend a 15" or 17" wheels... tire selection, availability, and pricing tend to be better (at least for the compounds I typically run, YMMV). Konig makes good wheels for a reasonable price, or you can look around for some factory wheels that have decent specs. If your 5x114.3 as someone else posted, there aren't a lot of common factory wheels (that I know of) that are wider than 8"... euro and domestic tend to be better about wide factory wheels but japanese tends to be narrow. If you're going to go aftermarket, you won't regret going too wide but you'll regret going too narrow (to an extent). Tires tend to wear and perform best with stretch... 205 on 8", 225 on 9", 245 on 9.5-10". A 225 on 9" would probably suit your car well, but if you can fit a 235-245 tire it'll last a lot longer for endurance racing. I usually run a 205 on miatas (2000-2400lbs) for time attack, and step up to a 225 for endurance and they last way longer by going up a size (therefore keeping them cooler). The BMW (3400lbs) runs 245/40/17 on a 17x9.5... our pinata miata 15x9 225/45/15 and my time attack miata 15x8 205 50 15. Yokohama doesn't really make any good endurance tires, the RS4s are the shit for budget endurance racing.. they last forever and are great to drive.

Full Ass Racing
#455 Piñata Miata - 1990 Miata
#735 BMDollhÜr 7Turdy5i - 1990 735i
  • Registered: 2011-06-17
  • Posts: 109

Re: Modifying our 626

mthew_m wrote:

....More rotor surface and open wheels are also nice.

Good point, the wheels on the 626 don't have very much open area to allow good airflow to cool the brakes. Wheels with more open area will help.

EPA Racing - #40 Supercharged Dodge Caliber
  • Registered: 2017-02-22
  • Posts: 222

Re: Modifying our 626

let me check my 626 at dads house. It might have wheels for you but I dont know. It is just the motor and trans donor for the Fo-Shogun (Festiva).

88 Festiva  -  Damn Tree!!!
"We Are Not Really From Iran" Festiva  -  Motor and Trans to be anounced
  • From: Raleigh, NC
  • Registered: 2019-10-28
  • Posts: 94

Re: Modifying our 626

duthehustle93 wrote:

I would recommend a 15" or 17" wheels... tire selection, availability, and pricing tend to be better (at least for the compounds I typically run, YMMV). Konig makes good wheels for a reasonable price, or you can look around for some factory wheels that have decent specs. If your 5x114.3 as someone else posted, there aren't a lot of common factory wheels (that I know of) that are wider than 8"... euro and domestic tend to be better about wide factory wheels but japanese tends to be narrow. If you're going to go aftermarket, you won't regret going too wide but you'll regret going too narrow (to an extent). Tires tend to wear and perform best with stretch... 205 on 8", 225 on 9", 245 on 9.5-10". A 225 on 9" would probably suit your car well, but if you can fit a 235-245 tire it'll last a lot longer for endurance racing. I usually run a 205 on miatas (2000-2400lbs) for time attack, and step up to a 225 for endurance and they last way longer by going up a size (therefore keeping them cooler). The BMW (3400lbs) runs 245/40/17 on a 17x9.5... our pinata miata 15x9 225/45/15 and my time attack miata 15x8 205 50 15. Yokohama doesn't really make any good endurance tires, the RS4s are the shit for budget endurance racing.. they last forever and are great to drive.

I think shooting for 9" wide wheels is a little overkill - in my limited knowledge, I'd make a decent wager it would take a lot of work, and the offset would have to be just right, for 17x9 wheels to fit under a 626 without a huge amount of rubbing.  It was quite an ordeal trying to get 8" wheels under the Buick, and we still haven't perfected it.  17" is probably the way to go, especially if brakes are already becoming a problem, but, a 15" would still work, and would reduce costs some.  7" wide is likely perfectly fine

The Mustang and the Chrysler LX cars are probably your best source of wide 17" wheels.  GM has several 18"x8", and a 16"x8", but I'm blanking on what may be 17x8 (or higher).  The problem with the RWD cars is offset.  It's easy to increase offset with spacers, but, can't really decrease it.  I tried putting the 17x8s from the Buick on my '07 Civic, and it was not even remotely close.  Would have to cut the fender out and make some sort of flare.  Which, isn't out of the question, but, I don't fell that's a great recommendation for 'Step 1', when 7" wheels are so abundant and cheap.  I will say, I wouldn't put a ton of effort into trying to stick to the stock aspect ratio.  It may end up close with the ultra-low-profile tires, but, I wouldn't put a huge priority on it.

Semi-Sentient Centenarians
1996 Buick Century - we upgraded our crappy GM sedan with parts from a crappy GM minivan.
"It's got a van motor, a 220 cubic inch plant, it's got van tires, van suspension, van shocks. It's a model with the catalytic converters ripped out so
     it'll run good on regular gas. What do you say, is it a racecar or what?" - Blues Brothers, Probably
  • From: Camarillo, CA
  • Registered: 2021-03-26
  • Posts: 386

Re: Modifying our 626

I wouldn't be too worried about fitting a 9" but I also have no first-hand 626 experience. People stuff 9.5-10" wheels under miatas with a roll+pull, the BMW took 9.5" with just a roll and could probably take 10" or more with a pull, and our prelude took a 9" with room to spare with a roll/pull... all of which have ~6-7" factory wheel widths The other thing that helps is that the amount of negative camber you should be adding to a race car (not just for good handling, but it also exponentially helps with tire ware) helps fit the wheel/tire under the car. The other other thing that exponentially helps with Lemons cars is the lack of care for the fenders haha.

Full Ass Racing
#455 Piñata Miata - 1990 Miata
#735 BMDollhÜr 7Turdy5i - 1990 735i
  • From: Queens, NY
  • Registered: 2014-05-17
  • Posts: 602

Re: Modifying our 626

Mazda 6 brakes front
Mustang 17" wheels like from SN95 or shoe box. 225/45R17 for ok balance speed vs traction or 255/40R17 more traction less speed
arp studs from Evo 9 and drill and reamer the stock hubs to fit.
Ebay coil over kit for all 4 sides on all new struts.
Camber Kit Plates 86-91 Mazda RX7 FC3S front, rear oem new.
450# front springs 350# rear springs, no sway bar, OEM sway bar in rear for more advance drivers.

More advance options:
13" brake rotor from Mustang from like 2004 + Superlite  style caliper with 7620 pads plate + brake booster unplugged
RX8 rotor and caliper in rear
Plum the brake lines to have front and rear circuits separate so could add proportional valve, remove stock proportional valve
Bilsten make your own struts for front
Bilsten B6 from VW/Audi strut inserts for rear.

https://www.facebook.com/greatglobsofoil/
This car....Is said to have a will of it's Own. Twisting its own body in rage...It accelerates on.
1978 Opel/Buick Isuzu(C>B>C>B) , 1996 Nissan Maxima OnlyFans (B) , Sold 1996 Ford Probe GT(B),
  • From: SF Bay Area
  • Registered: 2012-01-06
  • Posts: 721

Re: Modifying our 626

Looking at the coil springs for your suspension;
it'd be pretty easy to cut 1/2 a coil off of one end.
I'd probably go with the end that has more space
between the coils. You'll stiffen the ride a bit, reduce body roll
and help the tires a bit. Also, a set of camber bolts can help
you pick up some negative camber that will help your cornering grip.

Also, if you decide to run an aftermarket wheel, hub-centric adapter rings
will save you many headaches.

Capt. Delinquent Racing
RUST-TITE XR4Ti - '21 ARSE-FREEZE-APALOOZA  I Got Screwed
The One & Only Taurus V8 SHO #31(now moved on to another OG Delinquent)
'17 Vodden the Hell - (No) Hope for the Future Award, '08 AMP Survivor, '08 ARSE-FREEZE-APALOOZA Mega-Cheater
  • Registered: 2011-06-17
  • Posts: 109

Re: Modifying our 626

meltro wrote:

Are there some particular make/model rims that are very lemons-friendly, and easy to get proper sized tires for?

Tirerack suggests that for a 17x8 wheel, offsets from +35 to +48 will fit.

https://www.tirerack.com/wheels/results … toModClar=

Wheel size says that you need 5x114.3 bolt pattern and a 67.1mm hub bore.

https://www.wheel-size.com/size/mazda/626/1999/

Heading over to ebay to look for rims with those specs, there are many options:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/115677331872
-These wheels have the correct hub bore and will bolt right up

https://www.ebay.com/itm/234308008171
-These wheels have a hub bore of 73mm, so you will need these rings to get the correct spacing: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008RLSTKC

EPA Racing - #40 Supercharged Dodge Caliber