The 24 Hours of Lemons Forums → Lemons Newcomers → price to laps
is there a specific way to know how many penalty laps id get for a car thats costed 1500 or so. i was thinking like a fiat for lightweight and a sbc 350, 305, or 283 v8 for reliability and parts availability. is there a direct ratio or do judges decide penalty laps based on other things such as aesthetics of the car, might lower the penalty laps given
You bring a swapped Fiat,ain't no judge gonna give you penalty laps....
obviously the example isnt as impressive as some iv seen. but im just trying to get a feel, how do we know if over spending would worth it. i know thats not the spirit of lemon racing. i just want to race and Lemons are so so cool. any input is appreciated.
right.thx for the reply. so what then determines penalty laps if it isnt over spending. if its way impressive will i just not get any extra laps
right.thx for the reply. so what then determines penalty laps if it isnt over spending. if its way impressive will i just not get any extra laps
It’s completely at the judge’s whim. In general, the more hopeless the car, the less we care about the budget. For example, no one ever asked about the money spent on our AMC Javelin or Rover P6 3500. Peugeot is good to go. Ford escort, no worries. Toyota Corolla… no one cares.
Now, show up with Miata, BMW E36+, or any number of other serious cars, the budget is scrutinized.
thx. maybe the info is out there idk. didnt know how to find it. this all makes me love yall even more lol
right.thx for the reply. so what then determines penalty laps if it isnt over spending. if its way impressive will i just not get any extra laps
The $500 limit is what we call the 'spirit' of Lemons.... If you bring an uber-cheaty BMW,you can expect to be scrutinized very closely and probably get penalty laps.Bring something that has no right to be on a racetrack (like a '73 El Camino) and no one will care how much you spend getting it there.The judges want to see creativity and won't care how much $ was spent on the build,(within reason).Even if you do get penalty laps,you still get to race,and let's face it,you're not gonna win your first time out......Check out the past race results and look at the type of cars that win I.O.E. or Organizers Choice awards.Those are the cars the judges want to see you bring,not another fucking BMW,or even worse,a Miata....
lol. im in the spirit then for sure. rn its about... "can i justifying budgeting for a project Lemons car, college, and my civic i currently want to build" oh ya and im 17. grr and broke
Far and away the answer to your question is the one that drives some people crazy. An event with rules implies objectivity. Lemons eligibility rules are subjective. As such you won't get a concrete answer until the car is presented. In general a car/marque with sporting pretensions or racing success will be be scrutinized far more than a car with no racing pretensions. A BMW 3 series or Miata will be looked at differently than a Fiar. The Fiat can have a Ferrari V12 in it and you will be deemed a hero because you brought a Fiat to race against 3 series BMWs and Miatas.
Also completely overlooked here is that penalty laps for your first race don't matter. You aren't going to win. Even seasoned SCCA/NASA racers who come to Lemons mostly fail at winning. It's a different animal and you don't know what you don't know yet. Regardless of what car you bring you need at least a handful of Lemons races under your belt before you can even have a shot at winning.
In short, don't worry about laps. If you get some, so be it but based on a Fiat with anykind of engine in it you won't get any. It won't make a difference. What you do need to worry about is making your car reliable. Make it run and stop. Let's use your V8 Fiat as an example. Let's say you make it run in your driveway. You really think that spindly little rear end is gonna hold up to 2 8hrs days straight of that V8 hammering on it? Do you think that now super nose heavy car is gonna handle well enough to not burn the tires off of it? Same with brakes? Or the engine won't overheat? Engine swaps are hard enough much less subjecting them to endurance racing. More likely than not your V8 swapped Fiat won't last long enough to even think about winning. If I was serious about a swapped Fiat (presumably 124), I'd put in a Miata or Ecotec drivetrain in it instead of a V8. You'd still probably not get any laps, at worst get bumped up to class B or A and have a better chance of making it through the weekend.
is there a specific way to know how many penalty laps id get for a car thats costed 1500 or so. i was thinking like a fiat for lightweight and a sbc 350, 305, or 283 v8 for reliability and parts availability. is there a direct ratio or do judges decide penalty laps based on other things such as aesthetics of the car, might lower the penalty laps given
Here's some posts about penalty laps so you can get a sense of how they apply.
https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3A … ty+laps%22
i was thinking a sbc 350, 305, or 283 v8 for reliability
These don't seem very reliable in Lemons.
flyboywithsi wrote:i was thinking a sbc 350, 305, or 283 v8 for reliability
These don't seem very reliable in Lemons.
interesting. i wonder why. im partial to hondas but according to some stuff iv read they arent used either. is this just basically because of the money required to make these engines reliable for endurance.
There's tons of threads about your question in the 'Lemons Tech' subtopic; K-swap was suggested to me on one question, and to others as well.
I spent a year and a half lurking here before registering to ask a question - and it's also something you can do in your free time.
You'll be surprised at the depth and breadth of problems and solutions posted in this forum. It's an interesting read.
I'll be interested if you post what you decide on.
If budget is a concern, buy an already complete Lemons car. You can get one for under 4k with most of the safety items already in place. If you build it yourself, expect to spend double that amount and about 100 hours, and then hope you pass tech inspection.
If you haven't done so already, go to a race and hang out. Ask a bunch of different people all of the questions. Not only will you have fun but you will be armed with a great deal more knowledge of how this thing works.
flyboywithsi wrote:i was thinking a sbc 350, 305, or 283 v8 for reliability
These don't seem very reliable in Lemons.
what is reliable? Our 1st 305 had 179k on the clock, we added a new t-chain and cam. That motor lasted several weekends before it developed a rod knock. Our 2nd 305 we decided to do a garage rebuild, It is very strong and it has also seen several weekends. It cooks down the straights,
If you bring a fiat, you basically get a free pass.
I worried about documenting all the costs early on. At our first race we just rolled through BS inspection as the judge laughed about a new team with a fiat.
I don't worry about it now, but still DIY everything and keep costs as low as possible.
fwiw the original fiat drivetrain didn't make much power but it was bulletproof. We're doing a swap now for the lulz but the OG stuff held up well for 5 races.
Troy wrote:flyboywithsi wrote:i was thinking a sbc 350, 305, or 283 v8 for reliability
These don't seem very reliable in Lemons.
interesting. i wonder why. im partial to hondas but according to some stuff iv read they arent used either. is this just basically because of the money required to make these engines reliable for endurance.
Lots of Civics and Integras have done well.
Good answers everywhere here, especially Cheseroo's.
I'd add (and then get on my soapbox): The first two things that you are racing against are (1) your own ability as a team and (2) your equipment.
Lots of people get wrapped up in what others are doing in Lemons; you need to run your own junk first and only after a few/many races should you even trot out a measuring stick, assuming you care. And it's perfectly acceptable--encouraged even--not to care about the actual race(s) going on.
I'll recommend that you Keep It Simple Stupid (K.I.S.S.) for as many races as you can and don't try to upgrade 800 things at once. Run the car as stock as you can for a couple races and don't abuse it. Don't rev to redline every shirt and threshold brake every corner. Lemons is old-school endurance racing: Take care of the car is Job #1.
If you feel compelled to change anything, improve one thing at a time so you can figure out if it actually helps or tinker with that one thing to make it more effective. Don't modify the car in a way that can't be undone easily.
This is also a long game: The driving ability and car capability tends to grown incrementally over a long time.
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On a technical level: Fiat = No Penalty Laps, pretty much. True of most Italian, British, and French things. Other stuff really depends on how much it seems like a Real Race Car™ with Real Racers™ running it..
On the Fiat, if you put a "reasonable" swap into a Fiat like an Ecotec or even a Ranger 2.3L engine, it's going to make far more power than it was designed for. You'll still have the chain of related failures (brakes, tires, probably cooling, differential beefiness, and fuel tank capacity/feed) that you will need to sort over several races. That doesn't mean you shouldn't do it, but it's a much harder path.
Small-Block Chevys (and most pushrod V8s...and most Lemons engines in general) do not like revs. High RPM kills Lemons engines. If you've seen this post, that is a team with a Small-Block Chevy. Subtract 1000 of the factory redline, at least. All you're doing is burning extra fuel and creating A LOT of eventually-failing rotational momentum at 5000 RPM.
Hondas are kind of the same story. Lots of revs will toss rods. Purge and flush the coolant system well before you race. Have a set of head gaskets on hand and dog-ear the head gasket page in the Haynes Manual. Like all FWD cars, wheel bearings are a wear item and you can have a set of half-shafts in the boxes from the local parts store with a receipt to return it after the weekend if you don't use them (though there's a good chance you'll use at least one of them).
Whatever you build or buy, run the highest-quality brake fluid and a set of endurance racing pads.
Good answers everywhere here, especially Cheseroo's.
Run the car as stock as you can for a couple races and don't abuse it. Don't rev to redline every shirt and threshold brake every corner. Lemons is old-school endurance racing: Take care of the car is Job #1.
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Subtract 1000 of the factory redline, at least. All you're doing is burning extra fuel and creating A LOT of eventually-failing rotational momentum at 5000 RPM.
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Lots of revs will toss rods. Purge and flush the coolant system well before you race. Have a set of head gaskets on hand and dog-ear the head gasket page in the Haynes Manual. Like all FWD cars, wheel bearings are a wear item and you can have a set of half-shafts in the boxes from the local parts store with a receipt to return it after the weekend if you don't use them (though there's a good chance you'll use at least one of them).Whatever you build or buy, run the highest-quality brake fluid and a set of endurance racing pads.
Lemons Advice for Rookie Captains in a nutshell!
The 24 Hours of Lemons Forums → Lemons Newcomers → price to laps