Topic: Weight in back of car?

We are in the process of building our 92 grand prix for the gingerman event in october.  I have been doing some research in the suspension.  The car has struts in the back without springs.  There is the large flat transverse spring that runs inside the box axle.  It appears that we cannot do much to modify the suspension on this car.  There are no springs to cut.  My goal is to make the handling as predictable as possible.  I realize that we are not going to win the race.  (We are all Lemons virgins).  Since stripping out the car, the back end is much higher due to the weight reduction.  Would some weight in the back help out?  I was thinking of sand bags in heavy burlap placed in the spare tire well.  Then weld metal across so the sand bags stay in the well.  Will this help with handling?

Re: Weight in back of car?

Can you get a diagram or some pictures of this?  There are always ways to modify any suspension smile

The Yugo used a transverse leaf in the rear and it was very easy to modify for height adjustment.  If you could post pics of how the spring attaches to the rear suspension we can probably come up with some ideas. 

The last thing you really want is more weight in the car.

http://wartburg.misfittoysracing.com
OTTER: "I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part."
BLUTO: "We're just the guys to do it."

Re: Weight in back of car?

I am currently on vacation and will post some pictures when i get back.

Re: Weight in back of car?

transverse leaf spring....sounds like a CORVETTE.....

there has to be a way to bring the rear end down, without adding weight...since that is a bad idea.....is the 92 grand prix FWD or RWD...

I wonder if a corvette transverse spring would work.......if it is a standard steel spring...maybe you could play around with truck springs to make it work....

Richard Doty
1984 Porsche 928 "Estate"
Porsche- "there is A substitute" Racing
Dirt Poorsche Racing #2

Re: Weight in back of car?

92 is FWD. I think the spring is plastic or some composite mystery stuff. Whatever you do, don't add weight, the car has enough road hugging weight.

Team JB Weld runs an 89(?) GP, maybe I can find their blog/website.

Re: Weight in back of car?

The car is FWD. The spring is some mystery stuff, it isn't rusted and is black. 
Will the car have the tendency to understeer?

Re: Weight in back of car?

A quick search indicates that the rear spring is indeed a transverse composite spring.  You could shave material from the edges (not the top or bottom) to make the spring rate lower, which would lower the rear height.  BUT, you really don't want to make the rear suspension any softer!

I found complaints of the rear end sagging due to worn out shocks.  You could use that tendency to your advantage by manipulating the rear shock mounts in some way. (lower the bottom mount, or raise the top mount)  You could also potentially do the same with the spring mounting points, mounting the spring lower on the ends that attach to the suspension, or higher in the middle where it attaches to the body will lower the car.

Then find a big rear swaybar to put on it to transfer some of that cornering weight to the front where it is needed.

Lemons South 2008 - Fail, Lemons South Spring 2009 - Fail, Lemons Detroit(ish) 2008 - Fail, Lemons South Fall 2009 - Fail, Lamest Day 2009 - Fail, Miami 2010 (Chump) - 2nd!, Sebring 2010 (Chump) - Fail, Cuba 2010 - Crew Chief, Roebling 2011 (Chump) - 8th!, Sebring 2011(Chump) - 19th!

8 (edited by JThw8 2010-04-06 07:32 AM)

Re: Weight in back of car?

Loren wrote:

You could also potentially do the same with the spring mounting points, mounting the spring lower on the ends that attach to the suspension, or higher in the middle where it attaches to the body will lower the car.

This is what I was getting at.  Usually a simple mod to the mount points is all it takes.
On the Yugo transverse leaf it is literally about $9 worth of hardware store bits, longer bolts some spacers, drill out the old crap, insert new, done.

If I could see how it mounts to the outers I could probably come up with an idea.

Moving the inner mount up as suggested is also a good idea if it is reachable on this particular car.

Found some pics of my old Yugo suspension mods which may explain it better

Before
http://www.misfittoysracing.com/stockyugosusp.jpg

After
http://www.misfittoysracing.com/modyugosusp.jpg

http://wartburg.misfittoysracing.com
OTTER: "I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part."
BLUTO: "We're just the guys to do it."

Re: Weight in back of car?

The further weight is from the yaw center the worse the car will handle.  If you put a bunch of weight towards the back it will likely handle worse, and be more unpredictable.  Why is the higher ride height such a concern? Remember that by removing weight off the rear you have effectively raised the rear spring rate.  If you want predictable handling stick with what the engineers designed stock.

You are only entitled to the space you occupy.

Re: Weight in back of car?

Do something along the lines of the photos above.  Move either the wheel end attachment points down or the center attachment up ( It's a lemon, get creative ) to alter the preload and keep the stock ( now stiffer ) spring rate.

Or ditch the leaf and fab some coilover mounts for your struts

El Capitan de los Bastardos De Lemons
1993 Linco Mark Ate
1957 Renault Dauphine
Driver with LemonSpeed's V6 Mustang

Re: Weight in back of car?

Add and flip.

Find another car in the JY and strip out the spring. Or alternately find a metal leaf spring of similar dimensions. Using different metal spring (length or stiffness) would allow you to adjust the rate a little bit.

Then you have two options, both will double the spring rate (Stiffer spring), and you can pick your ride height, but its a little limited.

Disassemble your rear end so you can access the spring.

Option#1: Take the extra spring and put it on the old spring in the opposite direction so it looks like this... (). Clamp with several C-clamps, 3 or 4 would be good. Re install on the car. See what your ride height is. It will be probably be a little lower, but stiff.

Option #2 Install the springs like this )), but upside down. This will lower your car a LOT!. This should be the same doubled spring rate.

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Re: Weight in back of car?

Thanks for the reply's.  I have been doing some research but haven't been able to find out much on the suspension. My concern was the weight distribution being significantly changed which could change the way the suspension reacted.  I hated to ask the question about the weight because I thought it would be wrong, but I didn't know for sure.  Now I have a much better starting point.  There is a sway bar in the back, I am going to see about upgrading that for sure.

Re: Weight in back of car?

Here's the Dallas GP team link. Maybe they can help with the rear suspension. They have a reliable car and the team is a well oiled machine. They are always a contender to win. Good drivers and a good group of guys.

www.teamjbweld.com

14 (edited by Spinnetti 2010-04-07 09:09 AM)

Re: Weight in back of car?

shabah210 wrote:

Thanks for the reply's.  I have been doing some research but haven't been able to find out much on the suspension. My concern was the weight distribution being significantly changed which could change the way the suspension reacted.  I hated to ask the question about the weight because I thought it would be wrong, but I didn't know for sure.  Now I have a much better starting point.  There is a sway bar in the back, I am going to see about upgrading that for sure.

Be careful with this stuff. Unless you really know what you are doing, you could end up making it a lot worse or hurting yourself. Invest in a couple good book before you dig in.... Carrol Smith has a bunch of good ones (tune to win, race to win etc), and I like Paul Vaulkenburgs book too (Race car engineering and mechanics or something - can't remember). Another simpler one is "Handling, what it is and how to get it". All of these go into detail about suspension setup and theory, and once you understand it well, you can do cool stuff. Get the car as light as you can first, and keep all the weight you have to keep inside the wheelbase if you can. Spending less than $100 total, I made my LS400 Lemon handle as well as the Spec Miatas I ran with on my first try (sig has build website)

"Don't mess with Lexas!" LS400. We survived another one! See website link for build details.
Maker of the "unofficial Lemons fish!" - If you ask nice, I'll likely give you one at the track.

Re: Weight in back of car?

From the sound of it the car will be a bit tail happy now.  That might be a good thing considering that push is the big problem with most fwd whips.  The best thing would be to get the rear ride height back near stock and add a big arse rear swaybar.  That way ou will get the CG down and keep the rear loose as well.  Equally important will be finding a way to add a bunch of negative camber in the front otherwise your front tires will become blistered up junk in a few hours.  Those two problems solved and you will be doing fine for sure.

Cars, cameras, and easy living...

Re: Weight in back of car?

Thanks for all the replys.  I will be doing some reading and will work on the bigger swaybar and negative camber up front.

Re: Weight in back of car?

Would a GTP have a larger rear swaybar that would be a direct bolt in?

18 (edited by Suprane1 2010-04-11 12:21 PM)

Re: Weight in back of car?

shabah210 wrote:

Thanks for all the replys.  I will be doing some reading and will work on the bigger swaybar and negative camber up front.

I have raced a 92 Grand Prix with the 3.4 DOHC engine in 5 Lemon races (Petty Crapheap Experience).  Its a very different set up than that of the JB Weld team.  They have a newer model a 97 Grand Prix (we have pitted next to them, they have an awesome car, but little applies to this model). 

Our car handled so bad the first couple of races that most of our drivers could not keep it on the road.  It had lots of power, but that tail wanted to come around if you turned while on the brakes, and really could only be saved with throttle.  (I actually liked driving it this way, but my other drivers could not get a handle on it)  It took a few races for me to get the handling worked out for them.  We did put the car through a weight reduction. Cutting out the inside door panels, cutting the panels on the inside in front of the rear tires, and removing from the trunk all of the brackets and lifting devices as well as the sheet metal supports, and removing the bracing on the hood.  All of this gave us an additional 120 lbs of weight savings above what we got out of getting rid of the interior.

To make the car handle better, we stiffened the rear by adding a much larger new rear sway bar that we got off of ebay.  Then I took some Miata springs and put them on the rear struts which we held up with exhaust clamps on the strut itself.  This completely made the car neutral, and very easy for any of my drivers to handle it.  There are some kits out there that get rid of the leaf spring completely, but cost made it prohibitive.

The rear camber can also be adjusted with Ingalls cam bolts.  The front is in dire need of camber adjustment, but we did not find a solution for this.  We found that our front tires got really chewed up on the outside edges.  This car has a strut that is captured and built into the hub, that can only adjusted with camber plates that I only know of one company that makes such a set up.  But that gets really expensive and would have the judges all over you.  Here is a link

http://www.overkillengineeringmotorspor … body2.html

Re: Weight in back of car?

sergio wrote:

Would a GTP have a larger rear swaybar that would be a direct bolt in?

3.4 DOHC rear sway bars on the 91-95 Grand Prix, Lumina, Cutlass were all the same.

20 (edited by Suprane1 2010-04-09 08:07 AM)

Re: Weight in back of car?

Rear sway bar Addco 474 is the 7/8 inch bar that we used, it is almost double the diameter of the factory bar.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/88-96-Po … 483789cda4

Re: Weight in back of car?

shabah210 wrote:

Would some weight in the back help out?

We did move our battery to the spare tire well, other than that we did not want any extra weight in the car, anywhere...

Re: Weight in back of car?

I still need to move some weight into the back of my car:
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_iKh_q_zglQU/S8cdSJjMGpI/AAAAAAAAAIc/oaXXbDn8-2A/s288/CIMG1280.JPG

El Capitan de los Bastardos De Lemons
1993 Linco Mark Ate
1957 Renault Dauphine
Driver with LemonSpeed's V6 Mustang

Re: Weight in back of car?

TheHeckler wrote:

I still need to move some weight into the back of my car:
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_iKh_q_zglQU/S8cdS … MG1280.JPG

You need to move some back of car into the back of your car wink

http://wartburg.misfittoysracing.com
OTTER: "I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part."
BLUTO: "We're just the guys to do it."

Re: Weight in back of car?

that means he shouldn't have cut the rest of the rusty stuff out, right?