• Registered: 2010-04-14
  • Posts: 35

Topic: Took the plunge--TR7 needs prepping

Well, after years of wishing, and about four months of car-hunting, my treammates and I finally took the plunge and bought a TR7.  Looks like it may be a good one (well, it's a TR7, so I really mean "less bad").  It's a '76 coupe that began life with an automatic that someone tried and failed to convert to a v-6.  The owner I bought it from went ahead and got an engine and proper five speed from a '77, and apparently replaced the main bearings and rings and dropped it back in.  So far as I can tell, the engine hasn't been broken in.  It's been garaged for many years, so it's remarkably rust-free.  It also came with a *crapload* of small parts. 
Truthfully, I feel awfully guilty putiing into a Lemons race, because in some ways, it's one of the nicer un-restored TR7s I've come across.
Now, of course, comes the race-prep. 

As a complete and utter newbie to Lemons (I'm nothing but a lowly autocrosser myself--and that ten years ago!)  I've got some basic questions.  I've pored over the rules, and I've looked at tons of pics and vids, and one thing seems strange to me--where are all the flares?  As I understand, wheels and tires are "free" (at least in the sense of the 500 limit--I'm aware of the 190 treadwear)  and yet it doesn't seem that many folks are stuffing big tires under their jalopies.  What gives?  I'm given to understand that having unprotected tires that extend beyond the bodywork is a no-no because of some unfortunate contact that's happened, but what about flared fenders?  It seems to me that some crude flares can be built for, well, next to nothing, and it's definitely one of the few things I want to do given how under-tired the TR7 is with its narrow 13-inch tires.  Does anyone know the story on flares?  I certainly don't want to do a mod that disqualifies me. 

Other than that, I'm humbly asking for advice as to race prep--our team has its own ideas, but the truth is, while we have some bona-fide racers, we've never done any event like *this* one.  Thoughts?  Encouragment? jeers?  Please, fire away.  All advice welcomed. 
Cheers.

  • FJ40Jim
  • FJ40Jim
  • Lemons Staff Stalker
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  • From: Lancaster OH
  • Registered: 2009-05-02
  • Posts: 1,657

Re: Took the plunge--TR7 needs prepping

Welcome.
And congratulation on the correct use of pore vs pour vs poor [/pet peeve]

Big wide tires hurt acceleration & top speed on the typical underpowered lemon.  Also, repeated heavy braking will cook the brakes before the wide tires become a braking advantage.  Heck, wide tires might not even help cornering speed if the clapped out suspension can't control the larger unsprung weight.

On our budget, the most effective thing has been to run a short wide tire on cheap, readily available stock wheels.  Shorter tire height gives quicker acceleration and more effective braking.

Wide tires and wheels are free (financially), but flares will be in the budget.  If they are made of scrap furnace duct or last season's clearanced lawn edging, then it's still pretty cheap.

Good on ya for thinking of racing a british leyland product.  See ya at the track!

Jim C.
If God meant for us to race, we'd all have baggy Nomex skin.
08TMS.09NL.10GM, SP, NL.11SP, NL.12SP, VIR, NL.13GM, NJ.14NJ, VIR, WGI.15AB.16GM.17NCM.18GM.19...
  • From: ny
  • Registered: 2009-05-15
  • Posts: 525

Re: Took the plunge--TR7 needs prepping

FJ40Jim wrote:

Welcome.
And congratulation on the correct use of pore vs pour vs poor [/pet peeve]

Its obvious that they're good grammer will help get them excepted to race

  • bob-e
  • Ripened Lemon
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  • From: Middle, TN
  • Registered: 2009-06-08
  • Posts: 265

Re: Took the plunge--TR7 needs prepping

eljefe17 wrote:
FJ40Jim wrote:

Welcome.
And congratulation on the correct use of pore vs pour vs poor [/pet peeve]

Its obvious that they're good grammer will help get them excepted to race

lol

  • From: Hayward, CA
  • Registered: 2010-03-23
  • Posts: 1,762

Re: Took the plunge--TR7 needs prepping

Austinpowerless wrote:

As I understand, wheels and tires are "free" (at least in the sense of the 500 limit--I'm aware of the 190 treadwear)  and yet it doesn't seem that many folks are stuffing big tires under their jalopies. 
Cheers.

This is road racing,  not circle track racing. Hugh tires do not necessarily mean fast times. Big rims and tires are heavy and make your car accelerate slow. That's bad. Big tires are hard to turn, road course racers turn a lot. Hard turning means tired drivers which probably leads to more crashes.

I've heard a factor of merit that roughly 1 pound of wheel weight = 3 lbs of car weight. So if your big tires wheels weigh 4 pounds more each, that would be equivalent to 4*3*4= 48 lbs of car weight.

Do some inertia calculations on those tires/rims.

There is happy medium of tire width for grip needed based on Horsepower, and the tire you need for cornering, and the weight penalty that hits your acceleration. Most Lemons cars are not tire limited due to horsepower.

Dudes Ex Machina: https://www.facebook.com/dudesexmachina

?Everyone who has ever built anywhere a 'new heaven' first found the power thereto in his own hell- Frederick Nietzsche
  • From: Columbus, OH
  • Registered: 2009-05-26
  • Posts: 2,839

Re: Took the plunge--TR7 needs prepping

What FJ40Jim said.  Not a lot of point in huge meaty tires and massive flares.  It's an endurance race, so shaving a few seconds per lap off isn't as valuable as ensuring reliability.  And increasing brake and suspension wear due to bigger tires can be a detriment to reliability.

Quad4 CRX - Wartburg 311 - Civic Wagovan - Parnelli Jones Galaxie - LS400 - Lancia MR2 - Boat - Sentra - 56 Ford Victoria
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  • Registered: 2009-10-25
  • Posts: 1,993

Re: Took the plunge--TR7 needs prepping

I also was leaning towards BIG tires when I built my Lemons racer.....but after many discussions from Lemons savy racers I decided to stay with the stock wheels & tire size.....NO REGRETS at all....the car handles just fine as is....  I would say most Lemons racers run around 205 or 195 tires..... 

Yes wheels-tires are free...BUT if you show up with $4k custom CCW's with 335 wide tires......other teams tend to think you are a cheater...so do the judges...which can lead to penalty laps or the crusher....

A properly setup "narrow" tire will perform better than a wide-heavy tire that is crammed in there

Richard Doty
1984 Porsche 928 "Estate"
Porsche- "there is A substitute" Racing
Dirt Poorsche Racing #2
  • Registered: 2010-04-14
  • Posts: 35

Re: Took the plunge--TR7 needs prepping

Thanks----all good answers, really.  At this level of power, wide tires probably are more trouble than they're worth.  I have to respectfully take issue w/ the road-racing/ circle track stuff, though.  The SCCA road racers I know would *love* to have wider tires.    Of course: 1) they make some real power 2) they race sprints 3) they have the suspension that can handle it.  Our car will have, well, none of that.
Also, to be clear, I'm talking about wider than *165*--these tires are very, very narrow.  No flares, though, you've all convinced me.
Thanks, for the replies.  This forum is invaluable--nothing beats experience.

9 Reply by tr6driver (edited by tr6driver 2010-04-14 05:31 PM)

  • From: North Carolina
  • Registered: 2009-11-22
  • Posts: 326

Re: Took the plunge--TR7 needs prepping

Hey!  Welcome from another Triumph-based team!  We were considering buying a TR7 when the TR6 came available (if you can call a $600 car in MI and us in NC available...).  If we can help in any way let us know...

Jamie Palmer  tr6driver@yahoo.com
Austin Powerless Racing  '75 Austin Marina, 44th/IOE Summit Point '13, 35th/1st Class C CMP Fall '13, 23rd/3rd Class C CMP Spring '14, 83rd/14th Class C CMP Fall '14 (blown engine/swapped mid-race to finish), 3rd Class C CMP Spring '15, 2nd Class C CMP Fall '15
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Austin-Po … 3187341573
  • Registered: 2009-10-25
  • Posts: 1,993

Re: Took the plunge--TR7 needs prepping

Since the TR7 is listed at 2250lbs....little tires will be fine....Miatas handle GREAT with 205/50-15's......Eyesore runs 195's & win more than anyone!!  I think the fiat has 195's too....

Richard Doty
1984 Porsche 928 "Estate"
Porsche- "there is A substitute" Racing
Dirt Poorsche Racing #2
  • Registered: 2010-04-14
  • Posts: 35

Re: Took the plunge--TR7 needs prepping

icemang17 wrote:

Since the TR7 is listed at 2250lbs....little tires will be fine....Miatas handle GREAT with 205/50-15's......Eyesore runs 195's & win more than anyone!!  I think the fiat has 195's too....

I don't doubt it--but, I do wish to emphasize, a TR7 will not run 205s without modification;  you gotta remember, the TR7 is 35 years old and so has 13-inch rims.   Also, the choice of performance tires for 13 inch wheels is very, very limited;  trust me, I run 13s on my street Spitfire so I know from experience that there's not a lot of choices.

  • From: Toronto, Ontario
  • Registered: 2009-05-03
  • Posts: 1,114

Re: Took the plunge--TR7 needs prepping

Watch your front brakes....not much swept area and solid discs....early 7's have a fragile rear end too....Capri/Volvo parts can be made to retrofit better front brakes but parts may be a problem. Might be worth getting the circle track wheel guys to drill you a custom set of 14 or 15 inch steel wheels to give some tire choices....My 8 is hard on 13-inch Tiger Paws!

Jim "Endo" Anderton
30 years of racing and still not Brambilla.....
  • From: Houston, TX
  • Registered: 2009-10-26
  • Posts: 73

Re: Took the plunge--TR7 needs prepping

My recommendation would be to gut it and get the roll bar installed and sorted out as soon as you can. This seems to be the biggest reason for failing tech and last minute stress.

With the low head clearance of the TR-7 you may have additional issues, it can be done seen them on the track, You may want to check with some of the other teams though the tech forum for insight.

Tire selection is more about grip than size, the difference between 300 streets and 200 track tires is amazing.

Good luck and have fun, see ya on the track,
Tucker

2008  Yee-Haw It's Lemons Texas - DarthBimmer; 2009 Houston Gator-O-Rama - Beermer; 2009  Yee-Haw It's Lemons Texas - Jewish Defense League BMW; 2010 Houston Gator-O-Rama - SwampJews from Hell; 2010 Houston Yee-Haw Texas - JDL - JEGS....errrr JEWS; 2011 Houston Gator-O-Rama - B Team - IOE Winner!; 2011 Houston Yee-Haw - Los Escorpions de Munich; 2012 TWS Yee-Haw Texas - B-Team - Dr. StrangeBenz