Topic: BS laps...

I’m a team member for the #30 e30 SE-R that ran its first race at Gingerman last month.  We were a team of Lemons virgins, and as such showed up to BS inspection with an unpopular car, a half-assed theme, and inadequate baksheesh, and consequently were hit with serious penalty laps.  Fixing the latter two problems is our first priority and we plan to do it right now that we’ve gotten an idea of what we’re up against, but we’re not sure what to do about the car. 

Problem is, we LIKE our car – it’s reliable and fun to drive, and we don’t want to build a different crap can.  (I would LOVE to do a proper crazy Lemons build peicing together a few cars that were never meant to mate, but right now that’s just not feasible because none of us have the facilities or tools)

Other than bringing a different car, I’m wondering how we're going to get through BS with fewer laps?  The judges really seemed to key in on a couple aspects of the car like the cracked exhaust header and the eBay-style coilover rocks, I mean, springs; things that we thought we were OK because they were within the letter of the $500 rule, but were outside of the sprit of the rules I guess. 

We’re just unsure of where to go from here… do we show up with the same car with a better theme and baksheesh and hope that we just got handed our lumps last time as rookies and will have an easier time this go round?  Or do we put the stock manifold and springs back on and risk having that called some sort of admission of guilt? 

Or if it's not those things, then will it be another?  We had fun all weekend and want to continue doing the Lemons thing, but it's discouraging to think that we may never be able to start a race without BS laps...

Re: BS laps...

First, take lots of pictures of your car.  Second, send those pictures to Jay Lamm and get your residual value.  Change NOTHING until you have done this.  If he clears your current set up at ANYTHING less than $500, you're good to go.  Don't change a thing and bring the e-mail proof (printed out, of course) to the next inspection.  Here's the problem with that plan: you might not have a budget to fix anything. 

Don't abandon your car if you like it.  Persist.  Eventually the judges will realize that you are a crappy driver and it doesn't matter how much you cheat - you're still gonna lose.

This plan hinges on one important detail: you cannot be an asshole.  If you bitch, moan or whine even once during a black flag, BS inspection or random-judge-encounter, you're dead.

I'm the doctor who is a wife. Which makes the grease hard to explain to my patients... www.tetanusneon.com.

Re: BS laps...

I actually thought you had a cool theme.  The SE-R made a great E30 clone.  Most SE-Rs get laps, but like doctawife said, get your residual from Jay and go from there.

BRE Datsun (Broke Racing Effluence) formerly Dawn of the Zed Racing
'74 260Z
Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/editpicture.php … 2559430584

Re: BS laps...

Baksheesh/bribing is a joke, it's all in good fun.  The value of your bribe isn't as important as the fun or joy that it brings.  For example, awesome team t-shirts, or other custom gifts are usually appreciated and remembered.  Showing up with GOOD food late in the BS-inspection day is usually much appreciated.  But, don't sweat it too much.  No matter how much or how good your Baksheesh, it truly has NO effect on the judging.  (okay, maybe 5-10 laps here or there, but if you're hosed, it ain't gonna help)

Judges remember things.  Particularly, they remember how well their favorite "cheater cars" perform.  Your SE-R was on their radar.  They probably know more about how your car performed in this race relative to other cars than YOU do, and they surely know how many appearances your team made to the penalty box.  With that in mind, and with the residual mentioned above firmly in hand, you probably won't have any trouble getting through BS judging next time around.

You can leave your suspension as-is, you've already been dinged for it. (but you should ask yourself whether or not it really helped... stock SE-R suspension ain't bad, that's one of the reasons the SE-R is on the Judge's radar!)  You probably should go ahead and put the stock header back on, if for no other reason than reliability.  (cracked header = not good)  And maybe you can sell that cheater header for $50 to finance some other needed repair? 

You'll know just how bad off you are when you get your residual.  The more "negative" info you can provide Jay with, the better.  "We finished 59th, even though we only visited the penalty box once, the left front fender will need to be replaced, I think the right rear wheel bearing is failing from the tap we took back there, the crack in the exhaust header is getting worse, and the clutch started slipping during the last stint..."  Give him a hint as to what your TEAM's potential is, and as to what kind of repairs the car will require to compete again.  He'll give residual accordingly.  If you tell him nothing, he's gonna say "SE-R... hmmm... $495.23".  And the judges will kindly ask what you spent your $4.77 on, as they look the car over for signs of new... anything.

Lemons South 2008 - Fail, Lemons South Spring 2009 - Fail, Lemons Detroit(ish) 2008 - Fail, Lemons South Fall 2009 - Fail, Lamest Day 2009 - Fail, Miami 2010 (Chump) - 2nd!, Sebring 2010 (Chump) - Fail, Cuba 2010 - Crew Chief, Roebling 2011 (Chump) - 8th!, Sebring 2011(Chump) - 19th!

Re: BS laps...

Yay, thou hast suffered the wrath inflicted from on high!  Thine is a weapon both coveted and cursed.  The SE-R, like the infamous Miata and E30, is a plague upon many a team that, when mentioned in hushed tones, inflames its competitors and is derided amongst cries of "Cheater!" and "Blasphemer!" 

Hark, my son!  All is not lost! 

Allow me to share the parable of those prodigal sons and daughters from the land of Los Angeles, The Mother Cluckers/Team 1-Up. 

Their's was a story tangled with penalties and purgatory, much like your own, for they too wielded the SE-R.  Early in their trials and tribulations, they were struck down by those with powdered wigs for their looseness with silver and gold. 

Despite such perils, the team returned.  Though they brandished the same SE-R, it was now devoid of hedonistically horrendous headers and superflously supercillious suspension summations.  Yay, listen to my words and heed them, child!  They reverted to stock components and climbed more adeptly than ever before!  They were thusly praised, awarded and welcomed with open arms back into the Lemons fold!  The fattest calf was slaughtered and their images were graven upon the Wall of Blame!  They are honored on high, just as you may some day be! 

But I beseech you, take caution when treading the perilous ground of any one of the trinity of supposed cheater cars!  I too have walked this ground, suffered persecution and become stronger through it.

Now go!  May your tires stay planted and your turns be apexed.

-Kyle
Eyesore Racing
"That's probably wrong, but it's worth a shot."

Re: BS laps...

We’re just unsure of where to go from here… do we show up with the same car with a better theme and baksheesh and hope that we just got handed our lumps last time as rookies and will have an easier time this go round?

I haven't actually been to an event yet, but it sure sounds like making sure they know you spent time, and effort on turning out a good theme is important. Baksheesh just means they like swag.

Re: BS laps...

doctawife wrote:

...  Eventually the judges will realize that you are a crappy driver and it doesn't matter how much you cheat - you're still gonna lose.

This plan hinges on one important detail: you cannot be an asshole.  If you bitch, moan or whine even once during a black flag, BS inspection or random-judge-encounter, you're dead.

lol, what if WE don't realize what crappy drivers we are?

It was hard not to walk away from BS inspection without disapointment on our faces, I'll be honest.  But we had a great time after we got over that initial shock, don't know if the judges knew that or not, I hope so.  We got a couple black flags that resulted in penalties that I didn't even have to look back on to laugh, they were funny then and there.  Our Bob Ross painting is a particular source of pride.  We're going to clear coat it to preserve it.

Loren wrote:

Baksheesh/bribing is a joke, it's all in good fun.  The value of your bribe isn't as important as the fun or joy that it brings.  For example, awesome team t-shirts, or other custom gifts are usually appreciated and remembered.  Showing up with GOOD food late in the BS-inspection day is usually much appreciated.  But, don't sweat it too much.  No matter how much or how good your Baksheesh, it truly has NO effect on the judging.  (okay, maybe 5-10 laps here or there, but if you're hosed, it ain't gonna help)

Yeah, I realize we can't buy our way out of serious laps with bribes, but we didn't really put much thought into our baksheesh either, I'll admit.  We just grabbed a 12pack of decent beer b/c we thought that's what we were susposed to do, rookie lesson learned.  Next time through we plan on having the package deal; a good theme and something unique that will make the judges smile and tie into our theme as well.

wrappedinbacon wrote:

Yay, thou hast suffered the wrath inflicted from on high!  Thine is a weapon both coveted and cursed.  The SE-R, like the infamous Miata and E30, is a plague upon many a team that, when mentioned in hushed tones, inflames its competitors and is derided amongst cries of "Cheater!" and "Blasphemer!"

...

Awesome.  Heart-click

Re: BS laps...

Or have your car blow up on the test day and spend all of friday putting a head gasket in it.  Jay doing tech at your stall=0 bs.  Of course, having a celica helps.

Bloomington, IN
We'll bring Beer!  Motorsports
Team Fiery Death! #0 2009 Lamest Day(65th), 2010 American Irony(24th), 2010 Detroit Bull(4th),2012 Capitol Offense (8th) 2012 American Irony (11 th), 2013 Capitol Offense (3rd) 2013 Chubba Chedder (4th, Judge Choice!) Now sadly part of a scrap pile. 
Toothless Racing Deadbeats #110 2011 Summit Point (61st) Currently being rebuilt into the new car!

Re: BS laps...

Put a wiener on top of it.  They'll stop laughing at you long enough to give you 0 laps, no matter what suspension you have. smile

The Cannonball Bandits | Facebook Fan Page | Unununium Medal Winners 2010
3X Organizer's Choice Winner 2010 - Sears Pointless, Goin' For Broken, Arse Sweat-A-Palooza
1X Organizer's Choice Winner 2011 - Arse Sweat-A-Palooza

Re: BS laps...

I liked your theme.. thought it was cool. I suspect however other factors. SE-Rs are good racers, and there was enough go-fast looking stuff on it for them to be suspicious. Once you flunk out once, you just remind them at the next event how bad you were and they may take more pity. The Sentra that won Nelsons is suspiciously fast, and theme is much worse than yours, but they do a good job and fly under the radar... Often it seems more people than parts. Be humble and self-deprecating smile

"Don't mess with Lexas!" LS400. We survived another one! See website link for build details.
Maker of the "unofficial Lemons fish!" - If you ask nice, I'll likely give you one at the track.

11 (edited by fairgentleman Z 2010-05-03 05:23 PM)

Re: BS laps...

Spinnetti wrote:

I The Sentra that won Nelsons is suspiciously fast,

the one with the 25th fastest lap time?

http://www.mylaps.com/results/showrun.jsp?id=1339917

Drive more, type less.

Re: BS laps...

Lots of very good advice here.

The most important however, is to get a residual value from Jay/Nick.

If Jay says your car is now worth $500 (and you bring a print out of the email that says so), your car is worth $500.

Also, you guys got hella black flags, not just a couple.

You also happened to pick 2010 as the year to show up with an SE-R. Every year there's a new uber-cheater car. This seems to be the year of the Nissan

"This is the scene where I get shot," Bronson said. "I have these little squibs that explode to make it look like bullets are hitting." "Fascinating," said Bergman. "I never knew how they did that." "You mean," asked Bronson, "you don't use machine guns in your movies?"

Re: BS laps...

fairgentleman Z wrote:
Spinnetti wrote:

I The Sentra that won Nelsons is suspiciously fast,

the one with the 25th fastest lap time?

http://www.mylaps.com/results/showrun.jsp?id=1339917

Mebbe I got the wrong Nissan.. Was a quick one at Gingerman..

"Don't mess with Lexas!" LS400. We survived another one! See website link for build details.
Maker of the "unofficial Lemons fish!" - If you ask nice, I'll likely give you one at the track.

Re: BS laps...

wrappedinbacon nailed it. That's Lemons.  Like it or go home.

Re: BS laps...

More people get attacked by sharks...On land!...each year than those who win Lemons.

We're never going to win. We accept that reality!!


KT

TH 2009- 40th ~ SP 2010- 13th Class Bad win!! TH 2010- 17th ~TH 2010- 16th  SP 2011- 20th ~ RF 2011- 13th Least Horrible Yank Tank ~ TH 2011- 79th
SP 2011- 105th ~ SP 2012- 119th ~ SP 2013- 139th ~ BW 2013- 17th
Follow Filthy on Facebook: Flailing Lizard Motorsports

Re: BS laps...

Judge Jonny wrote:

You also happened to pick 2010 as the year to show up with an SE-R. Every year there's a new uber-cheater car. This seems to be the year of the Nissan

Are you saying a Nissan could win?

What about a Datsun?

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z

Re: BS laps...

The SE-R is a solid Lemons racer....but just like miatas, E30's and Porsche's they attract attention....which NEVER HELPS

Richard Doty
1984 Porsche 928 "Estate"
Porsche- "there is A substitute" Racing
Dirt Poorsche Racing #2

Re: BS laps...

The SE-R has replaced the Integra as the Cheater's Ride Of Choice, and we treat it accordingly.

Re: BS laps...

icemang17 wrote:

The SE-R is a solid Lemons racer....but just like miatas, E30's and Porsche's they attract attention....which NEVER HELPS

Porsches?

Porsches are the antithesis of a "solid Lemons racer."

Porsches break the hell down with rhythm.

In fact, like Datsun Zs, we don't even care about Porsches.

"This is the scene where I get shot," Bronson said. "I have these little squibs that explode to make it look like bullets are hitting." "Fascinating," said Bergman. "I never knew how they did that." "You mean," asked Bronson, "you don't use machine guns in your movies?"

Re: BS laps...

Get yourself a Citroen. $.05 residual.

Re: BS laps...

Judge Jonny wrote:

...
Also, you guys got hella black flags, not just a couple.

You also happened to pick 2010 as the year to show up with an SE-R. Every year there's a new uber-cheater car. This seems to be the year of the Nissan

While I might argue semantics over the use of the term "hella", yeah we got too many BF's.  Three on Saturday had us (especially me while driving the last stint, even though I was the only team member to be not receive a BF all weekend) living in fear of the fourth, weekend-ending BF. 

Please don't be the mean professor who doesn't give any partial credit for the work-out problems, though.  Saturday night the driver that got two of our three BFs that day told us at dinner that he finally got it - even though he thought he knew how easy it was to rack up BF's in Lemons he didn't truly understand it until he got out there and started driving.  The other drivers agreed. 

On Sunday we got a BF on the third lap due to our stupidity - we loosened some strut bolts to put loctite on them before the green flag Sunday, and figured "Oh, the alignment's FINE, we didn't change anything..."  Of course we had just sent the car out with massive toe-out and the driver promptly spun.  The following four driver's stints were 100% clean the rest of the race, and I have faith that the next race will be the cleaner now that we have this experience under our belt.

And man, we thought we were smart back in 2009 for picking what we thought was a quick car that didn't have the e30/miata stigma.  Looks like we out-smarted ourselves into a worse situation.  sad

MurileeMartin wrote:

The SE-R has replaced the Integra as the Cheater's Ride Of Choice, and we treat it accordingly.

So what can we do?  We just don't have the facilities or tools to build a mid-engined Geo or other mis-mash of cars that would be smiled upon.  We built our car in a tiny, rotten shack that barely qualifies as a 0.75 car garage.  3 out of 4 of us have to drive 3 hours from Ann Arbor to Akron to work on it on the weekends.  We welded the cage after hours (1, 2am) at a garbage dump by calling in a favor to borrow the welder for a night.  As far as I saw, we were the only ones there that towed their car on a Uhaul trailer; some teams had tow rigs/trailers that easily cost 10x what our entire combined budget was (the car, the entry fees, the weekend, everything).  This guilty-until-proven innocent thing is no fun. 
[/whining]  Sorry for breaking rule 2.4, I’m done. I promise it won't happen again

Re: BS laps...

sac02 wrote:

So what can we do?  We just don't have the facilities or tools to build a mid-engined Geo or other mis-mash of cars that would be smiled upon.  We built our car in a tiny, rotten shack that barely qualifies as a 0.75 car garage.  3 out of 4 of us have to drive 3 hours from Ann Arbor to Akron to work on it on the weekends.  We welded the cage after hours (1, 2am) at a garbage dump by calling in a favor to borrow the welder for a night.  As far as I saw, we were the only ones there that towed their car on a Uhaul trailer; some teams had tow rigs/trailers that easily cost 10x what our entire combined budget was (the car, the entry fees, the weekend, everything).  This guilty-until-proven innocent thing is no fun. 
[/whining]  Sorry for breaking rule 2.4, I’m done. I promise it won't happen again

See here http://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/viewforum.php?id=13

Look at the build.  Aside from a larger garage and not having to borrow the welder I don't have anything special avaialble to me (ok, you'll see a lift in the photos but its broken and just gets in the way)  and you could build other cars much simpler than what we've done there.
My teammates are all far away and help when they can too.

Before I had a welder I learned how to make everything bolt in.  Not much more than a drill needed for that.

Just calling a whine a whine.  If you dont want to build something truly wierd its cool, most teams dont build mid engined geos.  If you like the SER its cool, but it is a car that excells in stock form so be careful what mods you make to it .  But almost anyone *can* build something crazy if they want and we're the proof of that.  We have 2 computer geeks, and insurance adjuster and a college activities director.  No pro mechanics, no pro tools.  Just alchohol, stupidity and bandaids.

http://wartburg.misfittoysracing.com
OTTER: "I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part."
BLUTO: "We're just the guys to do it."

23 (edited by doctawife 2010-05-04 06:54 AM)

Re: BS laps...

Don't give up on your car!  Take a deep breath.  We have a car that was a 'cheaty' model in earlier races - Neons can be hella suspicious.  There are a TON of racing parts out there for Neons, just like SE-Rs.  Neons were considered so cheaty and were so hated that the judges declared all Neons to be Fiats, and spray painted all Neons accordingly.  Our team got scrutinized very closely, and one of our Neons (the now-defunct Margarita Neon) got its fair share of penalty laps.  Now that the judges know us and remember our car, we don't get too much flack during inspection.  Furthermore, Neons have somehow fallen out of favor with the 'cheaters' and we've lost our bad rep.  So just be persistent.  Next year the new cheaty vehicle might be, I dunno, a resurgence of Miatas or a sudden influx Ford Focuses.

Here's what you need to do:
1) GET YOUR RESIDUAL VALUE FROM JAY!!!!  This has the potential to fix ALL, yes ALL, of  your problems.  DO NOTHING until you have your residual!  I cannot stress enough how important this could be for your team.
2) Take another deep breath.
3) Don't whine.
4) Bring good rum (nothing from Bacardi or any other well-advertized mainstream brand) to the next BS inspection.  Do a little research, it won't hurt.
5) Don't mention your forum name at BS inspection.  That way you won't be associated with this thread.
6) Take another deep breath.
7) Continue to work on your car.
8) Go enjoy the race.

I'm the doctor who is a wife. Which makes the grease hard to explain to my patients... www.tetanusneon.com.

Re: BS laps...

JThw8 wrote:

Just calling a whine a whine.  If you dont want to build something truly wierd its cool, most teams dont build mid engined geos.  If you like the SER its cool, but it is a car that excells in stock form so be careful what mods you make to it .  But almost anyone *can* build something crazy if they want and we're the proof of that.  We have 2 computer geeks, and insurance adjuster and a college activities director.  No pro mechanics, no pro tools.  Just alchohol, stupidity and bandaids.

No arguments it was a whine.  I just needed to get it out of my system and I'm done, and moving on.

It's our fault anyway for not just ponying up the dough to buy a used welder off craigslist at the beginning of this project, it would have made our lives SO much easier, we are still kicking ourselves.  And apparently we are stubborn and stupid, because we still haven't bought one...

Same for an air compressor.  Should have bought one, didn't.  We bought a 5 gallon pancake compressor at Walmart for race weekend and then returned it on Monday. 

Tools are always a good investment, but they conflict with our inherent cheapness...

Re: BS laps...

sac02 wrote:
JThw8 wrote:

Just calling a whine a whine.  If you dont want to build something truly wierd its cool, most teams dont build mid engined geos.  If you like the SER its cool, but it is a car that excells in stock form so be careful what mods you make to it .  But almost anyone *can* build something crazy if they want and we're the proof of that.  We have 2 computer geeks, and insurance adjuster and a college activities director.  No pro mechanics, no pro tools.  Just alchohol, stupidity and bandaids.

No arguments it was a whine.  I just needed to get it out of my system and I'm done, and moving on.

It's our fault anyway for not just ponying up the dough to buy a used welder off craigslist at the beginning of this project, it would have made our lives SO much easier, we are still kicking ourselves.  And apparently we are stubborn and stupid, because we still haven't bought one...

Same for an air compressor.  Should have bought one, didn't.  We bought a 5 gallon pancake compressor at Walmart for race weekend and then returned it on Monday. 

Tools are always a good investment, but they conflict with our inherent cheapness...

No argument there, tools will break ya.  But you really dont need alot of fancy tools.  Sure they make things easier at times but hand tools still work great.  Bolts and rivits can take the place of alot of welding if needed.

Just let your inner gearhead flow and you will find ways to make it work.  My first "build" was a race prepped Austin Healey sprite.  In a garage so small I had to pull it out to work on it.  I had no welder, no air tools and no experience but it got done.  You just have to be creative. smile

Press on with the SER.  Go back to the stock suspension and get a good theme going.  Dont stress being competitive too much, just have fun with it smile

http://wartburg.misfittoysracing.com
OTTER: "I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part."
BLUTO: "We're just the guys to do it."