576

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Spinnetti wrote:
Marc wrote:

another day in the shop.



hopefully he'll have time to weld in all the bungs tomorrow.

Wow.. nice fab work...

thanks, but i think you may be referring to the bungs. those are too cheap to bother making them.

polishing the tank is trivial when you have a lathe big enough to mount it on smile

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Two questions: what machine was used to weld this, and how many decades did the guy spend practicing? I wish I could PAY to get welds done like that, let alone do it myself or have a friend who could weld like this.

This build's final destination should be a museum or an industry show. Too many examples of quality workmanship in one place.

K Car Stalker

578

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

firegremlin wrote:

Two questions: what machine was used to weld this, and how many decades did the guy spend practicing? I wish I could PAY to get welds done like that, let alone do it myself or have a friend who could weld like this.

John (Evil Genius) does welds that are better than those. 

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w279 … 0_4779.jpg
From this thread: http://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/viewtopic.php?id=8862 which has many more examples. 

I like to think that I'm decent, but I can't compare.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

RobL wrote:
firegremlin wrote:

Two questions: what machine was used to weld this, and how many decades did the guy spend practicing? I wish I could PAY to get welds done like that, let alone do it myself or have a friend who could weld like this.

John (Evil Genius) does welds that are better than those. 

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w279 … 0_4779.jpg
From this thread: http://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/viewtopic.php?id=8862 which has many more examples. 

I like to think that I'm decent, but I can't compare.

Wow, I'm blushing...  but not really.  Those welds were done by my head fabricator, Darren...    I'd like to think I could do as well, but, as I have been managing more than fabricating,  Darren is probably better at this point in time...  But, hey, I took the pics!

Gosh, my business card says 'Tech Tyrant'

580

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Its not really fair to compare mig welds on steel with tig welds on aluminum.  Both are very nice but one takes a LOT more skill to make look good.

-Killer B's (as in rally) '84 4000Q 4.2V8. Audis never win?

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Marc wrote:
Spinnetti wrote:
Marc wrote:

another day in the shop.



hopefully he'll have time to weld in all the bungs tomorrow.

Wow.. nice fab work...

thanks, but i think you may be referring to the bungs. those are too cheap to bother making them.

polishing the tank is trivial when you have a lathe big enough to mount it on smile

Nah, I meant the tank itself and the lovely welds... the bungs I can knock out in a couple min. on the lathe too wink - But my welding is no where near that good! Whole project is amazing.. I applaud the drive and effort to see it through.  Hey, do you know trans controllers? I'd love to get my lex to hold gear and e-shift with paddles... bit clunky as it is now....

"Don't mess with Lexas!" LS400. We survived another one! See website link for build details.
Maker of the "unofficial Lemons fish!" - If you ask nice, I'll likely give you one at the track.

582

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

firegremlin wrote:

Two questions: what machine was used to weld this, and how many decades did the guy spend practicing? I wish I could PAY to get welds done like that, let alone do it myself or have a friend who could weld like this.

This build's final destination should be a museum or an industry show. Too many examples of quality workmanship in one place.

It's a synchrowave 350. and he's been doing this since before i was born. he's built experimental airplanes before.

anyways, just came in to get the todo list, i'll answer more questions shortly.

583

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

I'll get some better pictures of the tank with my other camera tomorrow.

but anyways, two other teammates came over tonight to do a little pre-cage prepwork and i started it for them.

a few things are obvious, it's definitely running on the overly rich end of the spectrum right now. (but hey, if you look closely enough you'll see flames here and there.)

I also seriously doubt any cooling beyond the super duty cooling fan will be necessary, the heads seem to dissipate heat very well even without a fan.

here's the best video of the night: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tc5BbgwpV4Y

the guy in the background telling me to kill it is because the flywheel is ever so slightly touching the cross member and throwing the occasional spark. there's already a plan to make it more rigid to solve that.

the plan at this point is to leave the motor alone, finish everything else on the car and then start working on tuning the motor. i suspect i'll still be tunning on friday at the track.

that's it for tonight. this weekend i work on the cage and the oil tank mount.

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Love the flame coming from the bottom left pipe.

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Marc,

You da man.

Sincerely,

The Outdone One

Captain: Speedycop & The Gang Of Outlaws -'94 Mark VIII (Least Horrible Yank Tank Stafford '09, NOLA '10) '61 Caddy (Org Choice-NL '09) '63 Tbird (EPIC Repair Failure-Gingerman '10, I Got Screwed-Summit Pt '10, I.O.E. WINNER Stafford '10!) '77 Lancia Scorpion (I.O.E. WINNER Joliet 2010!) '67 Galaxie 500 (Judges Choice-CMP '11)
Future Fleet: 1957 Ford Prefect 1942 Buick 1959 Bugeye Project GLCOAT

586

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

JdeMod wrote:

Love the flame coming from the bottom left pipe.

there's actually some from the top middle and the other bottom one also if you look closely smile


Speedycop wrote:

Marc,

You da man.

Sincerely,

The Outdone One

outdone? maybe just barely but it'll swap right back over when you get the 8 wheeler out there.

we really just need to combine forces for some special kind of crazy some day.

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

I am jack's ecological disaster.  Awesome job marc, really bummed we will not be there to see it.

Bloomington, IN
We'll bring Beer!  Motorsports
Team Fiery Death! #0 2009 Lamest Day(65th), 2010 American Irony(24th), 2010 Detroit Bull(4th),2012 Capitol Offense (8th) 2012 American Irony (11 th), 2013 Capitol Offense (3rd) 2013 Chubba Chedder (4th, Judge Choice!) Now sadly part of a scrap pile. 
Toothless Racing Deadbeats #110 2011 Summit Point (61st) Currently being rebuilt into the new car!

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Running that rich, yeah the CHT is gonna be low.
The latent heat of vaporization may pull the head temp below ambient!

Jim C.
If God meant for us to race, we'd all have baggy Nomex skin.
08TMS.09NL.10GM, SP, NL.11SP, NL.12SP, VIR, NL.13GM, NJ.14NJ, VIR, WGI.15AB.16GM.17NCM.18GM.19...

589

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

davisriley wrote:

I am jack's ecological disaster.  Awesome job marc, really bummed we will not be there to see it.

FJ40Jim wrote:

Running that rich, yeah the CHT is gonna be low.
The latent heat of vaporization may pull the head temp below ambient!

yeah, I'm going to work on mounting that oxygen sensor soon. part of it is i think the motor has to warm up a bit to get up to operating temperature where everything seals enough inside. i don't want to lean the mixture yet because i can't guarantee that it's all fuel, some of it is likely vaporized oil.

also, I'm not convinced that the SD strategy is what this thing needs, I may need to go to an alpha-n tune.

but anyways, the plan at this point is to finish the car and then use whatever time is left at the end to get the tune as close as possible.

there may also be a significant hot-start problem. the hotter the motor gets, the better the pistons seal and the starter may not be able to crank a properly sealing 540cubic inch motor. also, the minimum cranking RPM with my setup seems to be about 25RPM below that megasquirt loses sync to the motor angle.  we'll just need to get a few brave souls to push start the thing or we can use our backup lemon car to push start it.

either way, it's good enough for now. time to finish the rest of the car.

590

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Is the vacuum signal bouncing or very low?  If its not making much vacuum you might be able to shift the maps to the max vacuum and atmospheric pressure and give it better granularity.  Im not sure if you can shift or add rows or columns on megasquirt though.

  If you are getting a smooth swing of the tps its the way to go for this IMO.  Just make sure there isnt too little resistance through the tps (wot and idle swing will show little voltage change, between 2-3volts.)  I have had a couple fry because resistance was low.  I usually add a 500-1k ohm resistor on the = & - of the tps if its 3kohms or less.  Get a spare tps so your weekend isnt over if it pops if you go alpha-n.

0 degrees of timing will help hot cranking for sure.  You could add a second battery in the battery to starter solenoid cable so you get 24v to the starter to get more cranking speed/power.  It should get you started a bunch of times and can be charged overnight.

Whats up with the lower right cylinder?  ITB out of sync?

I cant wait to see video of this on the track!

-Killer B's (as in rally) '84 4000Q 4.2V8. Audis never win?

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Um.

Does it drive? big_smile

+1 on the 24v battery, as long as you don't overheat the starter.

Megasquirt can shift maps, so if your lowest vacuum is something like .7 BAR, you can still have a smooth map from .7 to 1. The row/column count is fixed, though.

Have you checked the throttles for equal clearance at some random throttle setting, just off idle? You might want to close off (or open all  the way) the little screw on top that controls idle on a normal engine, and make sure that the slider thingies on the left side aren't stuck open on any of them (the high idle valves). That and equal clearances should make it nice and even.

Are you running it on E85 already?

K Car Stalker

592 (edited by Marc 2011-04-01 08:38 AM)

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

jrbe wrote:

Is the vacuum signal bouncing or very low?  If its not making much vacuum you might be able to shift the maps to the max vacuum and atmospheric pressure and give it better granularity.  Im not sure if you can shift or add rows or columns on megasquirt though.

  If you are getting a smooth swing of the tps its the way to go for this IMO.  Just make sure there isnt too little resistance through the tps (wot and idle swing will show little voltage change, between 2-3volts.)  I have had a couple fry because resistance was low.  I usually add a 500-1k ohm resistor on the = & - of the tps if its 3kohms or less.  Get a spare tps so your weekend isnt over if it pops if you go alpha-n.

0 degrees of timing will help hot cranking for sure.  You could add a second battery in the battery to starter solenoid cable so you get 24v to the starter to get more cranking speed/power.  It should get you started a bunch of times and can be charged overnight.

Whats up with the lower right cylinder?  ITB out of sync?

I cant wait to see video of this on the track!

I haven't looked into it that much yet. the motor just seems like it does not pull much vacuum. it also needs a TON of ignition advance to get some power from it.

the lower right cylinder got flooded before that video was taken because the throttle body rotated. it was fixed in that video but it just seems like the slurry of oil and gas did not get hot enough to clean out. the cylinder was firing occasionally so it should clear out once i give it enough time to warm up/clean.

good call on the TPS, i have one in the shop already i'll just remember to throw it in the toolbox.

firegremlin wrote:

Um.

Does it drive? big_smile

+1 on the 24v battery, as long as you don't overheat the starter.

Megasquirt can shift maps, so if your lowest vacuum is something like .7 BAR, you can still have a smooth map from .7 to 1. The row/column count is fixed, though.

Have you checked the throttles for equal clearance at some random throttle setting, just off idle? You might want to close off (or open all  the way) the little screw on top that controls idle on a normal engine, and make sure that the slider thingies on the left side aren't stuck open on any of them (the high idle valves). That and equal clearances should make it nice and even.

Are you running it on E85 already?

no, it does not drive yet. that's what i plan on shifting my attention to now that it runs. frankly at this point it's running well enough for a victory lap or two and it should all be fixable with a tune.

there is no room for a 2nd battery, but right now i have the lowest of the low range cheap battery in there. a higher CCA battery should be available.

not sure what the fuel is, it's whatever was in the car when i got it. it smells like it's mostly varnish at this point. so perhaps it's about what the motor was designed to run on smile


I did pick up the finished oil tank this morning and I sent the judges a clarifying question about the oil lines. once I get their reply I'll be able to mount it.

i also have all the materials needed to mount the seat and build the cage. I'll count this weekend as a success if i get all the interior done (except for the steering wheel mount since i know i don't have all the materials needed for that right now)

*edit* the concern about E-85 is it does not appear that there is any available near the track and the car will have a voracious appetite for fuel.

593 (edited by Serj 2011-04-01 08:40 AM)

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

we should totally wait until he's got a cage, seat, and killswitch setup before we start try to armchair tune his ride! At least hopefully we've given him some ideas. now let's watch the magic some more! big_smile

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

You could ask who supplies the track's fuel and ask if they can bring a drum or 2 of E85 with them when the come to fill.

And for batteries, a 7 cell 14v circle track style battery might give you enough juice for cranking a bit faster if an optima cranking battery doesn't spin it fast enough.

I so want to see it run...

El Capitan de los Bastardos De Lemons
1993 Linco Mark Ate
1957 Renault Dauphine
Driver with LemonSpeed's V6 Mustang

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Marc wrote:

*edit* the concern about E-85 is it does not appear that there is any available near the track and the car will have a voracious appetite for fuel.

If that MR2 is anything like mine, you'll be refueling every hour big_smile. That tank is TinY.

K Car Stalker

596

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Serj wrote:

we should totally wait until he's got a cage, seat, and killswitch setup before we start try to armchair tune his ride! At least hopefully we've given him some ideas. now let's watch the magic some more! big_smile

thanks. at this point I'm so awestruck by hearing the motor run that i can barely care about tuning it smile


TheHeckler wrote:

You could ask who supplies the track's fuel and ask if they can bring a drum or 2 of E85 with them when the come to fill.

And for batteries, a 7 cell 14v circle track style battery might give you enough juice for cranking a bit faster if an optima cranking battery doesn't spin it fast enough.

I so want to see it run...

do you have any more info about the 14V batteries? that might be just the ticket!

firegremlin wrote:
Marc wrote:

*edit* the concern about E-85 is it does not appear that there is any available near the track and the car will have a voracious appetite for fuel.

If that MR2 is anything like mine, you'll be refueling every hour big_smile. That tank is TinY.

The MKII has a slightly bigger tank than the MKI MR2, but it's only about 11 gallons. if I get about 3-4mpg we will be pitting every 15-20 laps for another $40 of fuel.

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

marc wrote:

do you have any more info about the 14V batteries? that might be just the ticket!

Check here:
https://www.circletracksupply.com/XS-Po … eries.html

El Capitan de los Bastardos De Lemons
1993 Linco Mark Ate
1957 Renault Dauphine
Driver with LemonSpeed's V6 Mustang

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

I think you can get 16 volt setups from Jegs.

Silent But Deadly Racing- Chief cook and bottle washer, Former Flyin Turd Race Team Captain 
Ricky Bobby's Laughing Clown Malt Liquor Thunderbird Turbo Coupe, Datsun 510, 87 Mustang (The Race Team Formerly Known as Prince), 72 Pinto Squire waggy, Parnelli Jones 67 Galaxie, Turbo Coupe Surf wagon.  (The Surfin Bird)
Besmirching race tracks in the Eastern US since 2001

599

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

holy hell those are expensive.

i really appreciate the info, but I'll just round up some people to push instead smile

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

There will be no problem drafting a push-start crew when needed. That's what the Lemons Supreme Court is for.