The 24 Hours of Lemons Forums → Lemons Newcomers → How many honestly stay under $500?
Oh, and I forgot the $31.00 ebay coilover kit with springs bringing me to $496
It can be very easy to stay under the limit, put in some elbow grease and scour CL/Pull & Pay lots.
A car we used for several races and still have in storage now is a 98 CVPI. we got it in 2008 with 120k on the ODO, and the back of the roof capsized. $413 from the scrapyard it was parked. Literally the car needed nothing. We got a fairly racy stock seat from an MX-6 for $20, put the cage in, and took it racing. hell, one of the guys hanging by the shop where we prepped it gave us $20 for the chrome cop-car wheel caps, so the first race we actually ran it at we were in for $393 not including safety equipment.
WOW, there's a great example of phrases not to say at BS inspection.
And just goes to show that everyone has their own interpretation of what's OK and what's not and it's up to the judges to suss it all out.
I know some people are trying to use this forum to set up for BS inspection. I as accuratly as possible described what we have into our car.
Add up the numbers, we are under $500 at any time for the entire car, no calculations for residual value.
How much value would you put on a VW dasher trans? a random crash damaged radiator?
Our car is a POS, the Judges know this and our lap times back it up.
If the purchase price was $500 and you sold $700 - you would have $700 to work with. For the rest of that... YMMV with the judges.
The max you can have to spend is $500. If you sold $5000 worth of parts off a $1500 car you still only have $500 to spend. This is what the Judges told me at Sears Point.
The whole key to staying under budget is to buy a car that already runs and drives. Buy a basket case and you'll be nickel and dimed to death. We bought a POS barn find and spent a bunch of money, but it was almost all in the brake system and not budget items. The old brake fluid had turned to green powder, so every brake component including the lines and even the booster was junk. There are no old Z cars in junkyards east of the Mississippi either, so it was all retail.
We did tear the engine down just to inspect and clean, but we didn't replace any parts. Another problem with 35 year old cars is that there isn't much worth selling. The stuff that brings good money was trashed, or missing.
RobL wrote:If the purchase price was $500 and you sold $700 - you would have $700 to work with. For the rest of that... YMMV with the judges.
The max you can have to spend is $500. If you sold $5000 worth of parts off a $1500 car you still only have $500 to spend. This is what the Judges told me at Sears Point.
There are several controversial and gray areas about selling parts.
4.7: Scavenger Sales: If you sell pieces off of your car, the money that comes back in can be used to offset the initial purchase price. Just be prepared to convince some exceedingly skeptical judges of the validity of all those transactions.
Judge Phil has said you can only sell off parts to offset the initial price of the car. Which is reiterated by Lemons Alfetta.
However, Phil would also say you could sell $4500 off a $5000 car. I don't have a problem with turning a profit on parts.
If you can sell $4500 off a $5000 car I see no reason you can't sell $4500 off a $500 car. I doubt there are $4500 in parts in a $500 car but I've been wrong before.
The rules do not specify how much you can offset the initial purchase price either.
Like others have said, depends on the car to. The LeCar would have to work really hard to eran BS laps where a Miata will be hard pressed to avoid them.
Jeff G, I disagree that there aren't parts you can sell off an old Z. Many parts have value due to rarity.
In our car we used two Z cars to build one. That gave us more spare parts and salvage items. Patience, persistence, research and a freighter load of elbow grease got us to where we are.
Our car is not fast because we have a whole bunch of "cheater" parts, it's the time and effort we put into it. Yes we have some "cheaty" parts I got a good deal on but mostly we have a bunch of stock junk yard parts put together in a favorable arrangement.
The argument for parts you "just had" is also questionable. You are better to pay your parts than have the judges decide you X free part is worth $100 and ding you laps.
Since we got into Lemons, I can tell you parts value vary widely since I have gotten free parts as well as cars than seen other people ask more than I think an item is worth. I picked up a FREE MIATA chassis. The cheatiest car in Lemons and I got a free chassis.
The $500 rule has some gray in it, tip your judges accordingly.
Not counting the cage, brakes and tires, we had a legit $500 for all 3 of our Lemons races so far.
We bought our ex-circle track Escort for $500...including a doner car! All we did was tune it up, fix the alternator, and off the races we went.
We bought our current Lemons car (The Van Halen Camaro) for $500. The paint was in sad shape and ALL the brakes were shot. The interior was in good shape though, so we sold the seats, hatch carpet, etc for about $200. With that money we changed the fluids, plugs, wires, filters, and swapped in a set of swap meet headers ($20...gotta love the SBC). We ran this car at the 24 hour event at Neslon last year and finished the race, the only issue we had was all the gauges died on us. We then took the same car to Gingerman this year. We used our residual value for springs and more fluid changes, and...ran about 5 hours before the trans blew up.
Not bad at all!!
We are spending all our residual this time to fix the transmisison, its going to be close but I think we will again be under $500
It can be done. Put everything on eBay, $3 here and $8 there adds up to $500 quickly. Hood latches, window regulators, badges, trim, even a crap can has some stuff. I got $100 for the cat from the scrap metal yard, then another $18 for the rest of the stainless exhaust. The stock 14" alloys (5 including the spare) $85. Make whatever you can, for $35 from grainger you can buy pourable urethane, take old bushings and motor mounts, clean them and pour them back to one solid piece. Get a car you know inside out, make sure there are plenty of them at the Pull-A-Part. On sale day, you can fill a wheelbarrow up for $25 with tons of spares and upgrades. Search a few yards and know what stuff can be modified to work and you can find nearly new stuff on some cars.
Anyway, one of the most time consuming, yet rewarding things about building my car has been figuring out how to make things work.
Either you're all crazy, or I misinterpreted Lemons completely. My take on everything: Lemons is not a race, but a Parade at Speed. The idea is to "run what you brung". Don't worry about replacing belts and hoses before the race (unless they leak, cause that is a safety issue to other drivers). If it breaks on track, pit, tape, run till something else breaks.
There is only one prize for winning the race, but how many for NOT winning the race? Heroic Fix, I Got Screwed, Least Horrible Yanktank, Most From The Least, Dangerous Homemade Technology, and IOE.
The point of BS is to see what type of party animal you are. If you have a sense of humor (drive Le Car or have an awesome theme), your in. If you are over dressed (bring a $750 car to a $500 party) you better bring refreshments. And if you have no sense of humor and are a competitive douche, Judges don't want you and give you penalty laps. The spirit of Lemons is to party with fellow gearheads. Jay hand picks a team at very event that he feels lives the spirit of Lemons. He says "Hey, these guys are so awesome. They party hard. They didn't care that they only did 5 laps all weekend, but they kept everyone's belly full, and livers floating, so I want to personally invite them back to the next event. Just so you do join us, here is the money to buy your next entry fee". and that is the Organizer's Choice.
So stop worrying about a $500 budget. Stop worrying about winning for that matter. No one will care but you. I have never heard of a winning Lemons team offered a seat with a Formula 1 car. Hell, I have never even heard of a winning Lemons team getting a new sponsor that covered all expenses for the next year. Stop sweating the details, and have FUN.
If fun to you is most number of laps, SCCA has a spec Miata series. If fun to you is swapping build stories over some frosty brews, I'll see you Saturday night.
Either you're all crazy, or I misinterpreted Lemons completely. My take on everything: Lemons is not a race, but a Parade at Speed. The idea is to "run what you brung". Don't worry about replacing belts and hoses before the race (unless they leak, cause that is a safety issue to other drivers). If it breaks on track, pit, tape, run till something else breaks.
There is only one prize for winning the race, but how many for NOT winning the race? Heroic Fix, I Got Screwed, Least Horrible Yanktank, Most From The Least, Dangerous Homemade Technology, and IOE.The point of BS is to see what type of party animal you are. If you have a sense of humor (drive Le Car or have an awesome theme), your in. If you are over dressed (bring a $750 car to a $500 party) you better bring refreshments. And if you have no sense of humor and are a competitive douche, Judges don't want you and give you penalty laps. The spirit of Lemons is to party with fellow gearheads. Jay hand picks a team at very event that he feels lives the spirit of Lemons. He says "Hey, these guys are so awesome. They party hard. They didn't care that they only did 5 laps all weekend, but they kept everyone's belly full, and livers floating, so I want to personally invite them back to the next event. Just so you do join us, here is the money to buy your next entry fee". and that is the Organizer's Choice.
So stop worrying about a $500 budget. Stop worrying about winning for that matter. No one will care but you. I have never heard of a winning Lemons team offered a seat with a Formula 1 car. Hell, I have never even heard of a winning Lemons team getting a new sponsor that covered all expenses for the next year. Stop sweating the details, and have FUN.
If fun to you is most number of laps, SCCA has a spec Miata series. If fun to you is swapping build stories over some frosty brews, I'll see you Saturday night.
+10000 on this post.
PS Actually I am driving for Scuderia Torro Rosso this weekend at the Canadian GP.....
.....crap where did I put my crack pipe?
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
It can be done. Put everything on eBay, $3 here and $8 there adds up to $500 quickly. Hood latches, window regulators, badges, trim, even a crap can has some stuff. I got $100 for the cat from the scrap metal yard, then another $18 for the rest of the stainless exhaust. The stock 14" alloys (5 including the spare) $85. Make whatever you can, for $35 from grainger you can buy pourable urethane, take old bushings and motor mounts, clean them and pour them back to one solid piece. Get a car you know inside out, make sure there are plenty of them at the Pull-A-Part. On sale day, you can fill a wheelbarrow up for $25 with tons of spares and upgrades. Search a few yards and know what stuff can be modified to work and you can find nearly new stuff on some cars.
Anyway, one of the most time consuming, yet rewarding things about building my car has been figuring out how to make things work.
$100 for the cat!?!? I only got $35 for (each) of the LS400 cats, but then again, I had 3 of them...
For me its all about careful shopping since I hate selling stuff or having to make up stories.
Car $300
Junkyard shocks at the U-pull it yard $100 (replaced air suspension)
Drive belt $19
The famous $31 ebay coil-over kit (bought 4 of these over the last couple years for various Lemons)
Oil and Trans fluid $75 (Does anybody count this?)
Oil cooler $15
Sold the 3 cats + scrap aluminum (e.g. bumpers) from the car -$120
Loose change in the car -$16.43
Total cost for a decent running car (before safety and non-budget items): $403.57
I didn't replace plugs, hoses, air filter or anything else. Its as I got it. If it makes it through a race, residual will get me some more maintenance items...
Either you're all crazy, or I misinterpreted Lemons completely. My take on everything: Lemons is not a race, but a Parade at Speed. The idea is to "run what you brung". Don't worry about replacing belts and hoses before the race (unless they leak, cause that is a safety issue to other drivers). If it breaks on track, pit, tape, run till something else breaks.
There is only one prize for winning th.........
100% agree, but like anything else, its getting more hard core with every event, and the % of "engineers" and "SCCA Racers" is going up every time. At the Gingerman race, it was pretty clean, but it was pretty much an all out 14hr SCCA sprint race. I'm not creative enough to put on a good theme, but I do appreciate them. I'm also too much an engineer not to do a good job on the car... its just all sweat equity rather than $.... I guess I'm part of the problem, but really do appreciate those that really "get it" and I try to have fun with it. Best part for me is building what and how I want (engineering creativity). No anal SCCA rules.
I can't count how many times i've seen the 'I sold $N parts off a car that cost me $N-Y'.
I have been told by the judges that you can not benefit from parts sales in excess of the initial cost of your car. If your car cost $1 and you sell $5000 of parts - good for you. But you can only use $1 of the cash from parts sales to improve your car. The other $4,999 is for taking your wife on vacation or something. That's why the phrase in the rule 4.7 is 'offset the initial purchase price'. You can offset the initial price AND NO MORE. Once you've offset the initial purchase price (ie have driven your total net cost down to zero) all other sales are wasted for purposes of the $500 budget.
Trust me. I tried the 'I sold $N parts off a car that cost me $N-Y' approach. I really did sell parts for more than I paid for my car. You will get penalty laps if you use that approach.
Best part for me is building what and how I want (engineering creativity). No anal SCCA rules.
+1
all the pcs. of metal in the firewall of the SHOstang were cutoffs. the corner pcs. were cut out of a scrap 2x2 11 ga. post from a deck cover.
cost us maybe 10 bucks for all of it. all it takes is a little imagination, a welder, and sweat equity to build a one-off car.
just like it was done in the early days of racing.
cost us maybe 10 bucks for all of it. all it takes is a little imagination, a welder, and sweat equity to build a one-off car.
just like it was done in the early days of racing.
An extra-large helping of crazy helps the process along, of course.
saying i'm crazy??????????
thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!
best compliment i could get.
I'd say you are reading the rules TOO HARD.....its all about the story of your car and if it is a plausible $500 car....sure you can produce (emphasis on production) a stack of receipts that add up to precisely $500 (not counting the ones that got lost).... But say you show up with a 2005 mini cooper that has a salvaged title theft recovery with a receipt signed by the pope for $500...guess what...your gonna get laps...its just not a plausible $500 car.....
I nice standard to judge a Lemons car on is this:
If you left it running in a bad part of town, how long would it take to drive away....anything less than an hour.....you get my point
I'd say you are reading the rules TOO HARD.....its all about the story of your car and if it is a plausible $500 car....sure you can produce (emphasis on production) a stack of receipts that add up to precisely $500 (not counting the ones that got lost).... But say you show up with a 2005 mini cooper that has a salvaged title theft recovery with a receipt signed by the pope for $500...guess what...your gonna get laps...its just not a plausible $500 car.....
I nice standard to judge a Lemons car on is this:
If you left it running in a bad part of town, how long would it take to drive away....anything less than an hour.....you get my point
the thing though is that big generic slushmobiles with common parts are just as likely to disappear in that scenario as the racy drug-dealer dream-car specials. anonymity helps grease the chop-shop's palm!
But say you show up with a 2005 mini cooper that has a salvaged title theft recovery with a receipt signed by the pope for $500
That is funny. didnt I see a mini cooper s at Houston last october? was that the story behind it? How did you get the pope's signature?
We got a reval on the Craptation of $0. Jay said it actually had to have value to be reval'ed above zero. I would have been insulted, but, well, its the Craptation and he's right. So we have $500 to spend on it.
Now keep in mind brakes and wheels are safety items and do not count against the $500 budget. We will probably pour $1000 into the car, and NONE of it will count because it's all brakes, wheels and maybe fuel cell changes (also safety). So I doubt we'll even spend any money against the $500 cap except maybe for fluid changes and repairing some leaky gaskets.
That is funny. didnt I see a mini cooper s at Houston last october? was that the story behind it?
Yes you did. It was a 2005 MCS that was an insurance write-off. Guy who brough it owns salvage yards. He did a basic British/Autin Powers Theme and ended up with 1066 Penalty Laps in honor of the Battle of Hastings.
He's the same guy who brought the MG Midget in Feb. and got taken out when the ZX2 tried to mount the Gremlin.
Make whatever you can, for $35 from grainger you can buy pourable urethane, take old bushings and motor mounts, clean them and pour them back to one solid piece.
I pulled the Jag's rear suspension assembly saturday to change the rear rotors - yes, it's required, and found the rear bushings in weak shape. I looked on Grainger and this is the closest I could find:
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/5A454
Is this what you're talking about? If not, can you provide a link? I'm going to buy my fire extinguisher bracket from them soon, so it would be nice to just make one trip.
I think a lot of you guys are missing the point entirely. You're not supposed to find the awesomest car you can at a crazy insider police auction that no one shows up to and then lie/cheat to put sooper go-fast parts on it.
You're supposed to find the CRAPPIEST car imaginable. Put a cage in it. Race it. If you have to show receipts to the judges to prove your story, I'd argue you're doing it wrong. The goal should be to bring a car that they won't even pop the hood on.
If it were up to me no one would be allowed to sell anything for budget room. If you're afraid the judges won't believe your story, don't bring the car. You're not proving anything bringing a $1000 car that you "sell" $1000 of stuff off of and then put $500 worth of go-fast goodies on. You're still going to lose anyway. Some '84 cavalier is going to beat you. And they'll probably have a lot more fun doing it.
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